Why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?

[boobfan]

You are mistaken as to the difference between socialism and communism. In short, a communism economy is a demand economy where the government not only owns the means of production but decides what and how much to produce with out regards for the market of the goods or services. In a socialist economy the government owns the means of production but uses the market to determine what and how much to produce. That's a big difference. The uses of a demand economy was one of the reasons the USSR failed.

You can not literally go by the name United Soviet Socialist Republics. It is misleading. Hitler call his party the National Socialist German Workers Party. By your reasoning Hitler would have been a communist.

No, I am not mistaken I actually minored in Economics the second time I went to college when I got my second Engineering BA.

The very definition of socialism does not use any elements of a free market economy to determine anything. It is total government control of the economy from startup, production, to distribution the government IS the market in a socalist society.

 

[YMIHERE]

No, I am not mistaken I actually minored in Economics the second time I went to college when I got my second Engineering BA.

The very definition of socialism does not use any elements of a free market economy to determine anything. It is total government control of the economy from startup, production, to distribution the government IS the market in a socalist society.

Well, I guess you got a low grade in Economics because I have a degree in Economics. Did you go to Liberty University?

 

[YMIHERE]

Correction. I mean a communism economy is a command economy where the government not only owns the means of production decides what and how much to produce with out regards for the market of the goods or services. I am very tired.

 

[boobfan]

Correction. I mean a communism economy is a command economy where the government not only owns the means of production decides what and how much to produce with out regards for the market of the goods or services. I am very tired.

Communism simply means everyone is equal in all aspects of the society, which is why Russia was not communist it was Socialst because everyone was not equal there were great distictions in class between the ruling class and the non ruling class.

The market in a communist economy exists only to meet demand and does not produce anything more. It actually is Demand based if it is working but it is not a true economy as in this equality based system there is no real money that the people see. In a truly communist society there is no currency that the people actually use.

A command economy is just another term for a socalist economy as the Government IS the market and they control who to sell products to and which demand will be met or exceeded as a result. If the Government decides that they want not only to sell widgets to the 'local' population but they also want to meet some of country X's demand they will exceed the local demand to meet the additional demand.

I got all of my Engineering degrees from Texas A&M, My MBA I got from NYU because that's where I was at the time.

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

Are you serious with this thread?

Do you want to make more than 28k/year ever? That is what would be distributed if the United States was socialist. Do you ever want to be able to afford any assets? A house? A car?

Unemployment and programs like that are ok. But socialism does not work. Think about it, why would a potential doctor go to medical school for eight years if he knew he was going to make the same salary as the guy who takes his order at McDonalds?

But most Americans would suggest that Europe is socialist, correct?

I live in western Europe and I can earn as much or as little money as I choose.
I own several houses and I have my own car.
I am debt free - except for one mortgage on my own home.
Apart from that I owe no money to anyone or any institution,

I have my own career.
I pay my taxes and I am happy to pay my taxes because I believe that the European system of free education/health care and state support is essential to creating a civilised and caring society.

So tell me again, where socialism doesn't work?

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

But I don't think any serious person thinks your anything approaching communism especially as was exhibited by countries like the USSR.But thats what the other side always seems to go to , that socialism equals communism and a total command economy

That's the problem with people using labels such as "communism" and "socialism" : the use of definitions like that has to be examined.

Communism was/is effectively another definition for totalitarianism.
Stalin used communism to enforce his dictatorial ideas in the former USSR.
His version of communism is a million miles away from the socialist ethos put forward by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels in the 1840's.

The right wing in America always try to suggest that socialism = communism.
It's called scaremongering.

Western europe isn't like that but just has a better saftey net and strives as Deltaoscarbravo said to see the middle class do well and income growth to be spread around some.As he and I both said we think that makes it better for all.Nobody is talking about some vast income redistribution but policys that lead to such a situation.Its not a question if that will work,we know it will it did in the past and does in places in europe and elsewhere its just a question of will.

Agreed.

Western Europe has learned that the only real way to secure democracy is to create the conditions whereby a large middle class is allowed to exist.
The idea being that if there is a large middle class that this creates a buffer between the extremes and in fact reduces the gap between the extremes.

It is noticeable that the gap between the very rich and very poor in western Europe is nowhere near as great as it is in the USA.

I have been fortunate enough to travel to the USA both on business and on holiday, and I am shocked at the level of poverty that there is in the USA.
(and I am sure that I have not seen some really poor areas).

Don't get me wrong, there is a hell of a lot I admire about America and Americans but I do believe that the US economic system and the distribution of wealth - in the so-called richest country in the world - is very very unfair and inequitable.

 

[boobfan]

That's the problem with people using labels such as "communism" and "socialism" : the use of definitions like that has to be examined.

Communism was/is effectively another definition for totalitarianism.
Stalin used communism to enforce his dictatorial ideas in the former USSR.
His version of communism is a million miles away from the socialist ethos put forward by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels in the 1840's.

The right wing in America always try to suggest that socialism = communism.
It's called scaremongering.

No we know what the difference is and that is the problem we have, we actually do know what it is and we have seen that system collapse.

Russia was not communist it was a socalist system where politicians (party members with standing) thier families and friends had access to actual capital gain and the 'people' got access to bread lines.
That is not going to fly here.
The Totalitarian Russia that you speak of died with Stalin, not even Kruschev who is the face many people who are alive today that do remember 'communist' Russia had the kind of power in place that you speak of.

Communism by it's definition everyone including politicians being equal would actually be more easily accepted. It will never happen here either though.

The simple fact is that both systems are proven failures the biggest evidence of which is now China of all places that does not tax investors capital gains even foreign investors.
If the misguided socialists within our own government had actually paid attention when they were in college (assuming they actually attended) they would have learned that putting taxes specifically on the people that create jobs does not create jobs it simply convinces them to put the money elsewere or not do anything with it at all.

 

[CunningStunts]

America was founded on individual freedom. Period. And that foundation produced a great country that has done a lot of cool shit: saved the world in the 20th century from tyranny, landed a man on the moon, makes the best Western movies, and invented the internet. Many (including myself) believe that socialism violates the US Constitution and the very spirit of the country, and if left to continue unchecked, rewards the lazy while punishing greatness, which will inevitably lead us into mediocrity (we have seen the beginnings in the last 40 years, and it's picking up a lot of momentum now).

Individuals > Groups

"I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." John Lennon

 

[D-rock]

The USSR was not communist it was socalist! United Soviet Socalist Republics

What's your point? North Korea calls itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and China calls itself The People's Republic of China. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on a name at the expense of what really exist.

 

[Donkey Boy]

I simply cannot understand why Americans are so very afraid of Socialism. There are many socialised programs in this country, and America is certainly a land where people strive for equality of all people...Socialism helps, when done correctly, to accomplish that.

There is also a misconception about the difference between Socialism and Communism (not that I'm saying Wikipedia is a really reliable source...). It seems most Americans believe these terms synonymous when they really are not.

Can someone enlighten me? Americans? why are you afraid of, why do you hate Socialism?

I think a base level of "socialism" is okay in some regards but even those prove difficult to maintain.

As a pure socio-economic structure though it is bound to fail eventually...and has proven such many times in the past.

My father came from a Socialist country. Progress, innovation, economy, education, etc. were all stifled because the government was not able to provide all that it had promised and would not allow the private sector to do.

On the other hand, crime, religious-discrimination (Muslims discriminating against Christians, Jews, etc.) corruption, poverty, disease, and wars were going on almost non-stop.

That is why he left.

My parents moved back for a while to take care of my ailing grandfather who had been a long time and very high-up government employee. They lived there 4 more years. The same shit was going on. My grandfather passed away and my parents literally left everything they had accrued over the last 4 years and left overnight.

Now, that country has moved to a far more democratic society and is far more successful.

The next time something bad happens to you ask yourself this simple question: "Where was my government to help me or prevent this from happening?"

If you really need to understand, read Atlas Shrugged.

 

[Will E Worm]

Statement 3

Believe what you will. :yinyang:

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

No we know what the difference is and that is the problem we have, we actually do know what it is and we have seen that system collapse.

No you don't know the difference - and that is the problem.

Russia was not communist it was a socalist system where politicians (party members with standing) thier families and friends had access to actual capital gain and the 'people' got access to bread lines.
That is not going to fly here.
The Totalitarian Russia that you speak of died with Stalin, not even Kruschev who is the face many people who are alive today that do remember 'communist' Russia had the kind of power in place that you speak of.

With respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

Russia?
You're confused.
The former Soviet Union comprised Russia and many other countries such as Latvia, Ukraine, Estonia etc.
The USSR was a totalitarian state during Stalin's ran and after Stalin's reign.
The totalitarian regime did not die with Stalin, as you claim.
If the totalitarian regime died with Stalin as you claim, why did the USSR send forces in to Hungary in 1956, three years after Stalin died?
Czechoslovakia in 1968 - does that rings any bells?

The simple fact is that both systems are proven failures the biggest evidence of which is now China of all places that does not tax investors capital gains even foreign investors.
If the misguided socialists within our own government had actually paid attention when they were in college (assuming they actually attended) they would have learned that putting taxes specifically on the people that create jobs does not create jobs it simply convinces them to put the money elsewere or not do anything with it at all.

I never suggested that the Soviet or the Chinese ystem of goverment were the best system to adopt.

What I have suggested is that the western European system of goverment and it's economic model, do work.

You claim to be an engineer?

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

America was founded on individual freedom. Period. And that foundation produced a great country that has done a lot of cool shit: saved the world in the 20th century from tyranny, landed a man on the moon, makes the best Western movies, and invented the internet.

Saved the world from tyranny?
That's a rather exxagerated claim.

Could you tell me what tyranny, the USA saved us all from?

Many (including myself) believe that socialism violates the US Constitution and the very spirit of the country, and if left to continue unchecked, rewards the lazy while punishing greatness, which will inevitably lead us into mediocrity (we have seen the beginnings in the last 40 years, and it's picking up a lot of momentum now).

The US Constitution is a remarkable document : it enshrines the doctrine of equality for example.
It's a pity that the US people failed to live up to many of the worthwhile sentiments expressed in the US Constitution, isn't it?

 

[Friday on my mind]

Saved the world from tyranny?
That's a rather exxagerated claim.

Could you tell me what tyranny, the USA saved us all from?

Don't ya know we won WW1 and WW2 single handedly??

Everybody would be speaking german or Japanease right now if not for us.

Of course I'm kidding.We only pushed the allies over the top to victory with our entrance into WW1 in 1917,the brits and the french still did overwhelmingly the majority of fighting and dying.Not saying america's entrance was not a factor ,it was but we had help lol.

And of course in ww2 the brits again were vital to the defeat of hitler as were the Russians,maybe we can claim we whipped the japs basically all alone.

 

[lurkingdirk]

The next time something bad happens to you ask yourself this simple question: "Where was my government to help me or prevent this from happening?"

If you really need to understand, read Atlas Shrugged.

1. my socialist government has helped me plenty, as has the american government. i'm not looking to complain about government. i actually like government.

2. Ayn Rand is a terrific author of FICTION. while Atlas Shrugged is an invaluable work, it is not the definitive answer on this topic. it is a novel with science-fiction/fantasy elements. if we're going that route, i'll simply take what i need from star trek. :thumbsup:

 

[Hot Mega]

Saved the world from tyranny?
That's a rather exxagerated claim.

Could you tell me what tyranny, the USA saved us all from?

While we didn't do it alone the ability for the US to project herself to the theater of battle while not sustaining attacks in the CONUS likely kept all of Europe from trading in DMs and lira.

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

Re: Why are Americans afraid of Socialism?

While we didn't do it alone

Indeed, your country did NOTHING to help the war effort in 1939 and 1940.
While your country actually profitted from the war during 1939 and 1940.

And your country only decided to join the allied effort when Japan decided to attack your country.

While we didn't do it alone the ability for the US to project herself to the theater of battle while not sustaining attacks in the CONUS likely kept all of Europe from trading in DMs and lira.

I disagree.
Britain and France and resistance throughout Europe played a more telling part in the allied effort during WWII.

 

[deltaoscarbravo]

Don't ya know we won WW1 and WW2 single handedly??

Everybody would be speaking german or Japanease right now if not for us.

Of course I'm kidding.We only pushed the allies over the top to victory with our entrance into WW1 in 1917,the brits and the french still did overwhelmingly the majority of fighting and dying.Not saying america's entrance was not a factor ,it was but we had help lol.

And of course in ww2 the brits again were vital to the defeat of hitler as were the Russians,maybe we can claim we whipped the japs basically all alone.

I know you're joking.
But having said that there are many who believe the fiction that the USA singlehandedly won WWII especially.

The American contribution to WWII is always recalled and appreciated - and the Americans who perished or were injured during WWII are remembered

 

[Donkey Boy]

1. my socialist government has helped me plenty, as has the american government. i'm not looking to complain about government. i actually like government.

I'm not arguing the need for government either, but I will agrue governmental philosophy. IMHO, the more control the government has over its citizens, the more of a slave you become and the less free you are. Governments work for the people, not the other way around.

In the meantime, many of the government's "socialist-type" attempts have failed miserably. If that's any indication, I'd rather take care of myself and let the government worry about protecting the citizens from corruption, crime, and war. And they can't even really do that all that well apparently (Enron, 9/11, etc.)

In what ways has your government provided for you? Did you feel you were entitled to what they did provide for you? What did you have to put "in" to get "out?"

2. Ayn Rand is a terrific author of FICTION. while Atlas Shrugged is an invaluable work, it is not the definitive answer on this topic. it is a novel with science-fiction/fantasy elements. if we're going that route, i'll simply take what i need from star trek. :thumbsup:

True, Atlas Shrugged was a work of fiction, but it was greatly influenced by her upbring and her Objectivist philosophy. She had a perspective (much like my parents do) that a lot of people don't and was able to come to the conclusion that the capitalist philosophy was far superior as was the individual taking care of themself first before taking care of others and not relying on anyone else, individual or govermental, to do so.

There is also a reason why those with a socialist tilt can't stand her. Because she makes her deeply question their own belief system because her philosophy is damn near flawless.

How about this...we let the government take over everything (uh...Chrysler, AIG, you name it) and let's see how fast you get that Phaser. In the meantime, I'll be in Galt's Gulch building it. LOL. :wave2:

 

[Hot Mega]

Re: Why are Americans afraid of Socialism?

I disagree.
Britain and France and resistance throughout Europe played a more telling part in the allied effort during WWII.

What history are you reading from? Germany had carved France up and given a slice to Italy and was staging U-boat operations against GB out of France's ports.

Without the US what meaningful resistance was there to Germans plundering GB? The Russians???

The reasons why we were able to remain effective in projecting offense against the axis powers was not just due to our might but because our proximity to the theater of battles didn't allow for our infrastructure to be pounded.

You guys were pounding each other back into the stone age and Germany was winning that battle.