Why America is Finished

Facetious

Moderated
Philosophy is the basis of proper argumentation. Given the level of this debate, I have little choice but to start with the basics.

"Proper" is subjective, is it not ? Are you proper in all of your arrogant haughtiness ? :tongue:
The buzzwords, strategy and terms of argument that you offer appear somewhat familiar to me. From the Hegelian Dialectic are they ? Thesis . . . antithesis, repeat - repeat, ad nauseam and argue for reasons no other than to appear as more intellectually accomplished ?

Also, I cannot see that the thread opener is in fact a "troll"
He simply made a brief statement and invited the opine of others.

Trolls as I have come to understand, are vehement disruptors, who go above and beyond to garner the attention of the whole. Trolls are individuals who argue for the sake of arguing i.e. those seeking a reaction from others via always posting in opposition and / or contrary to an established consensus opinion.
 

Facetious

Moderated
Call me "out of the loop" (or stupid, whichever you prefer), but...who the fuck is Michael Savage and why am I supposed to care what he says?

:dunno:

Yea ? What about Shindeski . . whatever, a poster in the latter 30 count . . . who's he ? :tongue:

Hello, Shindeski, BTW . . .
Nice to meet you ! ;) ~


:jester:
 
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Yea ? What about Shindeski . . whatever, a poster in the latter 30 count . . . who's he ? :tongue:

Hello, Shindeski, BTW . . .
Nice to meet you ! ~


:jester:

Who I am? Why don't you just ask?
"Shindeski"? Are you lampooning my name? ;) At least I know something about you know: you obviously don't speak Japanese. :D
And what's with the jester? ...I don't like most of these smilies....prone to cause misunderstandings...

But thanks for this definition of the word "troll". I haven't heard of this usage of the word before.
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
I think I should probably leave this thread alone...
 
WE'RE FULL. What part of that don't you understand? Did you not see the BACKLASH of the American citizens when crooked hill tried to pass immigration reform? Never had the American masses been so proactive, i.e. outraged. You want all the illegals in your neck-o-the woods, take 'em then. :rolleyes:


No, I didn't, mainly because it's the figures I'm interested in, which clearly state that the US isn't full compared to most other countries.

& who or what is crooked hill? I doubt you're talking about

wikipedia said:
Crooked Hill is a neighborhood in Susquehanna Township

so please elaborate.
 
"Proper" is subjective, is it not ?

Not in this context, no. Logic contains several fallacies which can be ruled out. Appeal to majority is one, simply because the majority can be wrong (and frequently is). Straw men is another, because it does not address the original issue. One could make the argument that it is all made up and therefore subjective, and ultimately that would be true, but within our frame of reference it is not because we define our reality with the help of it just as much as, if not more than, the other way around.

Are you proper in all of your arrogant haughtiness ?

I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm an arrogant bastard. I'm fairly certain I've mentioned it before, and if not, I just did. It does not matter, however, as I don't base my position on my attitude. I'm not terribly concerned with whether people here like me or not.

The buzzwords, strategy and terms of argument that you offer appear somewhat familiar to me. From the Hegelian Dialectic are they ? Thesis . . . antithesis, repeat - repeat, ad nauseam and argue for reasons no other than to appear as more intellectually accomplished ?

You forgot synthesis, but no, that wasn't what I was after in particular. What I was after was the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. Law in general is a fine example of where the distinction is important.
To go back to the death penalty mentioned earlier, often I see people say that death penalty is good because a criminal deserves to die. This an example of something extremely subjective. If we were to say that it is morally right to execute a murderer, then why was it not morally right for the murderer to kill his victim? The only difference is perspective; there is no way to evaluate how much someone deserves to die, so why could it not just as well have been morally right for the murderer to kill, and morally wrong for us to do so? What should be done is examine the objective reasons for death penalty, such as the cost, the level of protection for society, the level of protection for innocently accused etc. The death penalty in particular is ruled almost entirely by emotion, and the fact that a majority supports it doesn't make it good. I'm against it not because I believe in the sanctity of human life (I don't), but because I see no practical use for it. The beauty of this is that anyone with sufficient data can convince me otherwise, as long as they can show that the cost/risk is greater for lifetime as compared to death. The problem with basing a position on emotion on the other hand, is that it is impossible to reason with it. You will never be able to prove that someone does or doesn't deserves death, because as I mentioned, it's a matter of perspective.

On that note, the sooner people realize that morals are not absolute, the sooner can we start resolving the problems in the world.

Also, I cannot see that the thread opener is in fact a "troll"
He simply made a brief statement and invited the opine of others.

Given the way he reacted to those (blanket statements, straw men), that's why I decided that he was out to troll. Trolling is not necessarily a bad thing, but then it requires some substance in between.

Besides, the way I see it, trolling was better than the alternative in this case.
 
don't seek for justice with leftists, they will always say that you are wrong.

Dont seek justice with the right, they are convinced they are always in the right...

We can agree to disagree... :glugglug:
 
@Bloodshot Scott
You know, it's pretty obvious that you are one of those people who have absolutely no idea, what they're talking about. Mindless repetition of unsubstantial phrases. America is full? Excuse me, but that's a load of bull. A really big load of bull. America still has enourmous potential. Just because most of the money and ressources are misused in (and on) the part of the country that's still running, doesn't mean that one can't evolve and enhance the country. You just have to shift to politics and economy that have lasting effects and achive sustained success. Countrys like Japan (127 million people on 377864 square kilometers), Germany (83 million people on 357023 square kilometers), or Great Britain (60 million people on 242910 square kilometers) still evolve and still let immigrants in. And you want to tell me, that America with just 288 million people on a huge landmass of 9809155 square kilometers is full? I can't even laugh about that statement...

Oh, really? You can read, charlatan? Then read this:

Among supporters of a more modern and moderate immigration policy, there is general agreement that the United States will eventually reduce legal immigration to traditional, sustainable levels and will end illegal immigration. We believe this because our arguments are correct, most people agree with us, and current policy is simply too opposed to everything we know about human nature.

Nevertheless, achieving our goal will be difficult because we immigration realists are fighting against a powerful array of meaningless cliches and unjustified assumptions that seem to have sunk deep into the collective American consciousness.

Here is our top ten list of these damaging myths and false assumptions, with our responses:



Reason number ten: there is plenty of room in the country for lots more people

Our response:

There is plenty of room in Yosemite National Park for a whole slew of Wal-Marts and strip malls. But is that an argument for putting them there?

Last year, the United States grew at a faster rate than China. Yet, between 1998 and 1999, Wyoming lost population. In other words, overcrowding is not a function of overall population density of the country.

In China, too, there are vast areas that are very sparsely populated. Yet the Chinese are taking extreme measures to reduce their very serious overpopulation problem. No one in China would think very much of the argument that there is no overpopulation problem in China because Xinjiang province has lots of room.

As with any question of public policy, the deciding factor should be: Is it good for the country?

In almost every major city in America, over-immigration has taken its toll, in the form of increased traffic and pollution, higher crime rates, over-crowded schools, financially exhausted hospitals and medical centers--and the list goes on. Every major environmental group is fighting the specter of urban sprawl. Does it sound like we need more people?

Given that it takes less than four years for the world to add another United States in population (net), it can be safely assumed that if we do not put the brakes on, we will end up in the same overcrowded boat out of which China is trying so desperately to climb.

Regardless of the amount of physical space we appear to have, it cannot ultimately be good for our country to continue our present reckless immigration policies.



Reason number nine: immigration is good for the economy

Our response:

Between the years 1925 and 1965, immigration to the United States was so low, the number of immigrants in the United States actually decreased. Yet during that time we Americans built the richest country the world has ever seen.

We can be rich without an endless flood of mass immigration.

But the debate continues to rage as to the various economic advantages and disadvantages of immigration.

But our basic position on the economic question is this:

1. If mass immigration is bad for the economy, we are merely stupid.

2. If mass immigration is good for the economy, then we are both stupid and base: We are saddling future generations with an overcrowded, polluted urban sprawl-land filled with balkanized factions thus proving ourselves too stupid to preserve our heritage and country and so base we are willing to sell it for a buck.

[Combined from other version:]

It's true that immigration grows the economy, but so what? If a half billion Chinese were to move from China to the United States tomorrow, the U.S. economy would grow (leaving aside the political upheaval) and China's would shrink, but is that a good thing necessarily? Lawrence Kudlow seems to think so.

Compare the total economic output of the countries listed in the chart at the right—from tiny Luxembourg, with an economic aggregate of just $27.3 billion, to the giant of the world, the United States, with $11.75 trillion.

U.S. Chamber of Commerce View


These are the same countries in the same order, except this time, we've calculated in the size of the population. When you look at it like that—in terms of total economic output per person—it tells a far different story.

Honest view


Little Luxembourg doesn't look so little anymore, Denmark and Nigeria are not the equals the first chart seemed to indicate, the U.S. is no longer the giant of the world, and while immigration fanatics like George W. Bush like to describe Mexican immigrants as fleeing starvation, that hardly appears to be the case.

So the next time Tamar Jacoby comes by and starts stroking your arm and cooing in your ear about how our economy needs immigration to grow, call her on her fraud: whose economy?

It's too bad Alan Greenspan wasn't exposed for the old fraud he is while he was the Fed chairman. When he started mumbling on during some senate testimony about how the United States must open the gates to immigration so we can keep "our" economy growing, it would have been great had we a senator on the committee with the intelligence and character to nail him.

The size of the overall economy is an economic statistic with no value outside its usefulness to frauds like Lawrence Kudlow, Tamar Jacoby, and the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal as a means to hoodwink gullible and short-sighted Americans into acquiescing to the radical transformation of their country through mass immigration.

The economic indicator that matters is the one depicted in the second chart above; no one is emigrating from Luxembourg to Nigeria. Immigration is driving us down in terms of the second chart, yet because a few immigration lawyers and business special interests (and their lobbyists) find mass immigration profitable, the relentless flood of humanity continues unabated.




Reason number eight: immigration adds diversity

Our response:

Immigration policy should not be decided on racial or ethnic grounds, or we will end up turning immigration into a tussle between the races.

Furthermore, whatever the benefits of ethnic or racial diversity, we are already one of the most diverse countries in the world. It is not clear we need more of it. (And besides, who decides how much is enough or too little diversity?)

Though we often hear the mantra "Diversity is our strength," polls show that Americans of all ethnic backgrounds are less than convinced.

Almost everyone agrees that balkanization the deterioration of a population into warring ethnically defined political groups would be a bad thing.

Yet, even a cursory glance around can not fail to impress upon the observer that, as our country becomes more diverse, it is also becoming more politically balkanized. "Identity politics" is increasing not decreasing.

Why do we continue to pursue a policy that can only intensify this tendency to balkanization?



Reason number seven: immigrants just want a better life—saying "no" is mean

Our response:

There are nearly five billion people in the world who live in countries poorer than Mexico. It can safely be assumed that many of those billions—like many Mexicans—would love to come to the United States in search of higher consumption levels.

Some Americans think that would be a great thing. But everybody else thinks it would be a terrible disaster. A 1998 Roper Poll found that only six percent of Americans think we don't have enough people in the country.

Since this is a democracy, subjective questions like this one are best decided by the majority, and since the people have not yet voted the borders out of existence, we have to operate from the position that our country still has them.

One of the characteristics of borders is that it divides the human race into those within the borders and those outside—just like the door to your apartment divides the human race into those within your apartment, and those on the outside. Borders, like doors and locks, are exclusionary by nature.

In the modern age, of course, this seems like a great sin, since a primary modern virtue is "inclusion." We moderns have a difficult time saying "us" and "them."

It goes against our modern sensibilities to say to someone born in Switzerland or Bangladesh, "I'm sorry. You are excluded." To us, it seems "mean."

But it is not mean. It is realistic and necessary and prudent.

Keep in mind one thing: our country is already taking in far more immigrants every year than any other country in the world. This extremely high rate of immigration is causing our nation to undergo massive changes changes the majority of the people of this country don't even want.

Yet for all the people we are taking in, we are still taking in only a little more than one percent of the births-over-deaths population growth of the world. If we are going to be "compassionate" to all the foreigners of the world and dismiss the best interests of our own people, what about that other 99 percent?

Again, it is not mean to control our borders. It is necessary and realistic.
What is mean is leaving our children a country twice as populated as we found it for no good reason other than that we were too lazy, or too cringing, or too benighted, to defend our borders.



Reason number six: immigrants built this country

Our response:

At some point, maybe we should stop "building."


And immigrants didn't build this country anyway. Americans did.

Immigration averaged only 235,000 persons per year prior to the disastrous 1965 Immigration Act. That's only 47 million immigrants over the course of our nation's history. Compared to our current population of nearly 300 million, that's not much. And then, if we add all the people who have lived before in the United States, we are approaching a billion total Americans who live now or who have lived in this country—all of them, or at least most of them, busy "building" it.



Reason number five: Advocating a reduction in immigration is racist and xenophobic

Our response:

Yes, there are those who hold their views on immigration for racial reasons—on both sides of the issue. (For every David Duke, there is a Congressman Gutierrez.)

This does not mean, however, that immigration is a racial issue.

And while the immigration issue does attract racists, it is our experience at ProjectUSA that most of these racists are to be found amongst our pro-mass immigration opponents—in particular, among the ethnic-identity pressure groups and politicians.

To those well-meaning but confused people who insist that immigration is a racial issue, we always ask: "Well, then, since you are absolutely certain one's position on immigration is all about race, what are your racial reasons for supporting this current flood?"

This question often causes confusion.

We believe that the confusion arises from our nation's unfortunate muddle-headedness on issues of race and culture. The current dogma of the "multi-cultural" ideology has convinced many Americans that "culture" and "race" are the same things. Just think of the endless paeans to multiculturalism in advertising, political speech, academia, etc: they are always illustrated by a photo of people of different races.

This is dangerous and wrong.

While a black American and a white American might be different colors, they are equally American, i.e., they share the same culture.

Modern "multi-culturalists" are the true racists when they elevate skin color to a place as primary as culture.

If we have racial problems today how will our problems improve with a half a billion people thanks to over-immigration struggling to survive in an overpopulated country?
Shouldn't we first resolve the racial problems we have instead of continuing with an immigration policy that will double our population and risk exacerbating an already increasing tendency in our country toward group identity politics??

Those who fear racial conflict or the rise of fascism should support, as we do, an immigration time-out in order to take a breather, reassess what we are doing, and give the assimilation magic time to work.



Reason number four: Immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do

Our response:

Prior to the disastrous immigration act of 1965, there was very little immigration.

In fact, between 1925 and 1965, immigration levels were so low the number of immigrants in the country actually declined. In fact, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States.

Yet, during that time, Americans invented computers, had a healthy labor movement, initiated the space program that put men on the moon, made great strides in civil rights and environmental legislation, built the largest economy the world has ever seen, and successfully prosecuted WWII against two great powers on two fronts simultaneously. We also got our grass cut, our meat packed. Our children were being watched, and our houses were being cleaned.

The idea that somehow we suddenly can't run a country without an endless supply of foreigners is absurd.

The falsehood repeated endlessly, that immigrants do the jobs Americans won't, is really tantamount to something like this: Imagine the owner of the local McDonald's puts a sign in the window that says: "Dishwasher wanted. $1.00 / hour." Suppose he leaves the sign in the window for a month, but no one comes in to apply for the dishwashing job. "See?" the McDonald's owner might say, "Dishwashing is a job Americans won't do. But there are a billion people in China who work for less than a dollar per hour. I need to import some cheap workers from China (or Bangladesh or Mexico)."

Then he or she will import the worker, undercut American wages, and, as a bonus, stick the taxpayer with the cost of the new worker's health care, of educating his children, and so on.

And politicians will talk about how our economy "depends" on immigrant labor.

A country should do its own work.



Reason number three: This is a nation of immigrants

Our response:

If you are discussing immigration with a friend, you are likely to hear him reflexively blurt out the gem: "this is a nation of immigrants." When he does, simply point out to him that eighty-five percent of the residents of the United States were born here.

How could that preponderance of home-grown Americans justify us being called a "nation of immigrants"?

Certainly we are descendants of immigrants (as is everyone in the world), but that is not the same thing as being an immigrant.

Anyway, such a statement is no justification for continued mass immigration. The inference that "We are a nation of immigrants and, therefore, we must not limit immigration" is a classic example of circular argument.

What is says is this: Because we are a nation of immigrants, we have to allow for massive immigration which, in turn, makes us a nation of immigrants. Hence its circularity.

Circular arguments are invalid in the logical sense by virtue of how they are structured and not what do they mean. They lead to faulty (and, therefore, useless) reasoning in which the thesis (the very thing which is to be proved) is used as a premise in its proof.

And circular arguments certainly do not form a good basis on which to formulate sound public policy.



Reason number two: Only American Indians have the right to criticize immigration policy

Our response

The idea that only "Native American" have the right to oppose immigration to the United States ignores the concept of "nation." There was no such thing as the political entity known as the the United States until the Founding Fathers created it in 1776.

Furthermore, there are not grades of citizenship. One is either a citizen of this country, or one is not. We are not more or less citizens of the United States based on the number of generations preceding us on these shores.

And, particularly, we are not more or less citizens of this country based on our skin color or ethnicity.

Since everyone in the world has ancestors who immigrated from somewhere else, the immigration history of one's ancestors is probably not relevant to the formulation of wise public policy.



And the number one reason to overpopulate the country: Your ancestors were immigrants!

Our response:

Yes, my ancestors came from somewhere other than North America. As did yours and everyone else's including those of the Native Americans. In fact, everyone in the world's ancestors came from somewhere other than the place they now call home.

In other words, every nation is a "nation of immigrants" and this meaningless slogan is useless as a basis for public policy. To redefine the world's boundaries according to ancestral wanderings would be a foolish and impossible task.

Furthermore, because a policy was appropriate in the past, does not mean it is necessarily eternally good. For example, if my ancestors were pioneers, I am not therefore constrained to advocate pioneering and expansionism as sound public policy forever.




http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1758131/posts

Please think before you speak/post. America came to the call when they knew they were going to be duped with the crooks that call themselves representatives.
 
How about you get your terms and abstract concepts right?! There is no "ultra-liberal". That just doesn't excist. The term "ultra" in front of a characterization of political preference indicates, that you're near the verge or the fringe of this political orientation. Liberals are in the middle between right and left. Either you're a conservative/right wing/... liberal or you're a socialist/left wing/... or you're a moderate liberal (that means in the middle), but you can't be an "ultra-liberal". And by definition liberals cannot, I repeat cannot be fascists, because fascism means "anti-liberalism", "anti-communism" and "anti-conservatism". Fascism is a political current and concept of its own.
And a militant liberal in the American democracy? Come on! I mean, seriously, what's that supposed to be? Liberals have been one of the driving factors of democracy, especially capitalistic democracies like the US. If in a democracy a liberal has to become militant, how much of the democracy is left there? Wouldn't that statement of yours be a rather bad testimony for the American democracy?
And one more thing: there are no "anarchist communist types" amongst liberals. Your either a communist or a liberal. You cannot be both. And you can't be an anarchist and a liberal at the same time either. Communists strive to abolish private property of the means of production as well as the state as its protector and the upholder of the class society. There is no state, no money and no capitalist industrial complex controlling the process of production and consumption in a communist state. Anarchists on the other hand just want to abolish hierarchy, domination and private property in the capitalist sector. There are still collectives or councils, but they are made from the people and not around or above the people and they regulate the distribution of money and work. Now, Liberals want private property in all its forms. The liberal state is constructed from the people, for the people and around the people and its sole purpose is to provide rules and security. For example it provides the right to have private property and is bound and obliged to protect your property. Whether you have work or not is your own problem. Whether you're rich or poor is your own problem. Social responsibility and fair distribution of work (so important in an anarchy) would be totally irrelevant in a purely liberal state.

Blah blah blah, tisp tisp tisp. :rolleyes:

It doesn't really even justify a response, considering that most people know a lot of these ideas/terms are interchangable in many different context. Whether you like it or not, many people consider your type to be a variety of different things: perverts, communist, atheists, murderers (child killers), etc. Just like Michael Savage calls you, in my OP.

No, I didn't, mainly because it's the figures I'm interested in, which clearly state that the US isn't full compared to most other countries.

Still doesn't make it right, and you are still in the minority on this, whether you like it or not. Oh yeah, read the link to my last post. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1758131/posts

who or what is crooked hill? I doubt you're talking about



so please elaborate.

Crooked Hill, a.ka. Capital Hill.
 
Is this thread something to do with why so many Yanks are coming to Wetsern Europe?

They're everywhere now. Not like a rash, or anything. But some of them don't look like they could handle a fist fight. Or irony.

Just a thought.

PS Or cash in public places.

Actually there in influx of ex-pats coming back to the U.S. due to the global recession...
 
ARE you advocating murder ?

Of course he wasn't! And I hope nobody reported his post based on that improper presumption. He was parodying the fact Savage himself expressed a fear (manufactured for higher ratings, no doubt) that now that Obama is in office he'll be murdered. And his fans eat this crap up; the whole "I'm the voice of truth and therefore an enemy of the state but they'll have to kill me to silence me" routine. His show is basically a soap opera for reactionaries.


Dear Lord: give us this day, our daily bread; and above all else please deliver us from Freepers. Amen.
 
Still doesn't make it right, and you are still in the minority on this, whether you like it or not. Oh yeah, read the link to my last post. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1758131/posts

Not really, I'd say a large majority....

6.451 billion billion people versus 305 million people (assuming that this estimate of the amount of people in the US at the end of 2009 is correct and that everyone in the US is a member of supporters of a more modern and moderate immigration policy, which obviously isn't the case.)

In China, too, there are vast areas that are very sparsely populated. Yet the Chinese are taking extreme measures to reduce their very serious overpopulation problem. No one in China would think very much of the argument that there is no overpopulation problem in China because Xinjiang province has lots of room.

True, but most of China is desert (the Gobi) and large populations can hardly survive for a longer period of time there. I suggest you read something about the great march of Mao Tse Tung & read about the hardships the people that followed him went through...

Last year, the United States grew at a faster rate than China.

Also true, but your birth rate is also higher than any western country in the world, besides Albania and Ireland. (excluding islands in the pacific & carribean which still belong to western countries)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_birth_rate

In almost every major city in America, over-immigration has taken its toll, in the form of increased traffic and pollution, higher crime rates, over-crowded schools, financially exhausted hospitals and medical centers--and the list goes on. Every major environmental group is fighting the specter of urban sprawl. Does it sound like we need more people?

As for the crime rate, pollution & increased traffic, it's always higher in cities, everywhere in the world. Thuis has little to do with immigration, but with the lack of possibilities for the people living in the city.

If schools are overcrowded then I suggest you build new ones. If hospitals are having financial problems, fund them.

Every major environmental group is also fighting against overconsumption and for the Kyoto Protocol, which the US has neither ratified or withdrawn from.

Between the years 1925 and 1965, immigration to the United States was so low, the number of immigrants in the United States actually decreased. Yet during that time we Americans built the richest country the world has ever seen.

Considering that a lot of people fled Europe to America during the '40 I doubt that this claim is true. Also read below...

wikipedia said:
For many years following the Great Depression of the 1930s, when the danger of recession appeared most serious, government sought to strengthen the economy by spending heavily itself or cutting taxes so that consumers would spend more, and by fostering rapid growth in the money supply, which also encouraged more spending. In the 1970s, economic woes brought on by the costs of the Vietnam conflict, major price increases, particularly for energy, created a strong fear of inflation. As a result, government leaders came to concentrate more on controlling inflation than on combating recession by limiting spending, resisting tax cuts, and reining in growth in the money supply.

As you can see, immigration had little to do with it.

Yet, during that time, Americans invented computers, had a healthy labor movement, initiated the space program that put men on the moon, made great strides in civil rights and environmental legislation, built the largest economy the world has ever seen, and successfully prosecuted WWII against two great powers on two fronts simultaneously. We also got our grass cut, our meat packed. Our children were being watched, and our houses were being cleaned.

Germans completed the the first computer (the Suze Z3) and the first American computer (the Atanasoff–Berry Computer) was partly invented by John Vincent Atanasoff, or in Bulgarian, Джон Винсент Атанасов. the son of a Bulgarian immigrant.

The US space program was innitiated because they could take it that the Russians got into space first. If you goolge "NASA russian technology" you'll also see that today the NASA is heavily dependent on Russian technology.

I thought that WWII was partly won thanks to a nuclear weapon? A technology that could have never been succesfully developed (at the time) without the knowledge of a person called Einstein?
 

maildude

Postal Paranoiac
Wasn't that Keith Olberman's voice?
 
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