The Blackest Day of the World History.

[pussy+dickdenice]

It is 6th August.

Peace was defeated. And it is the start of terror in the history of the world.

Can it be put to rest, Ever? Lets us hope that it does.

May be there is a thread on this. But I couldn't stop without remembering the day.

dd

 

[Dro50]

Remember Remember The 5th of November....


Nahh lol theres no way to tell when the beginning of terror began cuase it's been going on since the begining of time.

 

[pussy+dickdenice]

Remember Remember The 5th of November....

5th November? What Akbar has to do with modern day terror? Or did you mean 7th November?
Then You are sadly mistaken Dro. That day didn't have the same Impact as of 6th August, 1945.

Thank you.
dd

 

[HeartBroker]

It has yet to be , in my opinion...

 

[Dro50]

LOL no no no....It's a quote from V for Vendetta.

 

[Dean Wormer]

How's about this date?

http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/this_day_in_history/this_day_July_16.php

 

[Gordar]

The blackest day in history was the day a bunch apes started throwing rocks at the predators chasing them & figured out that they no longer needed to be on the bottom of the food chain.

Since that time there have been so many black days... I'll just name a few. (these are all from the perspective of the people living in that time & were on the 'losing' side.)

The birth of Ghengis Khan (that in itself might not have been a black day, but everything that came after it was, except for the mongols)
The fall of Constantinople (the blackest day ever for the Byzantian people)
The day Hitler became Führer & Reichskanzler in 1934 (once again, that day may not have been a terrible day, but what he started afterwards was)

 

[Jagger69]

I must respectfully disagree about the bombing of Hiroshima (and 3 days later, Nagasaki) being the blackest day in the history of the world. It was the toughest call that any world leader ever had to make and Truman made the correct decision since it obviously saved hundreds of thousands of other innocent lives that would have surely been lost had the bombs not been dropped. True to the Samurai code, Hirohito and his henchmen were prepared to sacrifice the life of every Japanese citizen before capitulating (not to mention the lives of thousands of Allied combatants, POWs, etc).

However, today surely is cause for remembrance and for memorializing the lives that were sacrificed that day....and as a stark reminder to those who seek to subjugate the lives and liberties of others through militaristic fascism.

 

[Legzman]

ah yes the day the U.S. showed the world "DONT FUCK WITH US!!!"

 

[Legzman]

Oh was that what it was? Is that what you call incinerating thousands instantly and making two large cities toxic and health death traps for decades...

If that's how America makes it's "don't fuck with us" statement, I'm only glad that the rest of the world is more civilized than the USA. Or none of us would even be here. Thank god we're the only barbarians willing to drop nuclear bombs on people. Maybe if everyone is lucky, we won't do it again... ? Thank god the soviets, chinese, etc, have more compassion for human life, that's all I can say.

Fox

I have to agree with you and that was my point. I'm convinced that america will cause the so called "end of the world" through more likely than not a nuclear holocaust! Not terribly proud to be an american at the moment and yet in the same respect I really wouldn't want to live elsewhere at this time in history

 

[D-rock]

Oh was that what it was? Is that what you call incinerating thousands instantly and making two large cities toxic and health death traps for decades...

If that's how America makes it's "don't fuck with us" statement, I'm only glad that the rest of the world is more civilized than the USA. Or none of us would even be here. Thank god we're the only barbarians willing to drop nuclear bombs on people. Maybe if everyone is lucky, we won't do it again... ? Thank god the soviets, chinese, etc, have more compassion for human life, that's all I can say.

Fox

It wasn't a statement as much as a necessity. I am curious what would you have done in that situation **********? Invaded the island by conventional means and have millions upon millions more people die than using the bombs and ending it quickly? Would you have just let a tyrannical regime alone that just got done attacking and trying to destroy you so they could gain power and someday do it again? If we did that Japan wouldn't be the place it is today. The truth is dropping the bombs most likely saved a tremendous amount of lives. Instead of perhaps millions of Japanese and hundreds of thousands of Americans dying there was just tens of thousands of Japanese that died and no more Americans and the war ended quickly after that. I would take that option every time.

...And I hate to break this to you but China and the Soviets don't have any more compassion than we have. We just got the bomb first (and it's extremely lucky for the world we did) and that prevented them from using it because of the doctrine of mutually assured destruction. If it was the other way around the world wouldn't have been so lucky.

 

[Senor_Cheese35]

there are many...

the year '71 - goodbye janis, jimi and jim morrison

the end of the counter culture movement - goodbye hippies

when men had to start and beg for sex

kent st. murders

oklahoma city bombing

they do constantine made christianity the official religion of the roman empire

 

[ThomasJenkins]

Oh was that what it was? Is that what you call incinerating thousands instantly and making two large cities toxic and health death traps for decades...

If that's how America makes it's "don't fuck with us" statement, I'm only glad that the rest of the world is more civilized than the USA. Or none of us would even be here. Thank god we're the only barbarians willing to drop nuclear bombs on people. Maybe if everyone is lucky, we won't do it again... ? Thank god the soviets, chinese, etc, have more compassion for human life, that's all I can say.

Fox

Before anyone points fingers at the US for the Atomic bomb, don't forget that the Germans were also in the process of developing the very same weapon and the race was on to complete it. The US simply beat them to it. Had they not, you can surely bet the history books would never have mentioned Hiroshima or Nagasaki... rather it would be the thousands of lives lost in the US, Great Britain and Russia.

 

[Roughneck]

I must ... <snip> ... tic fascism.

Thanks.

Truman made the most difficult call of that whole god damned war.

The decision to drop the bomb didn't come from thin air. And it had NOTHING to do with "America showing it's balls to Stalin/The World".

Before the Japanese home islands could have been invaded - the Marines (and other allies) made a costly, bloody island hopping campaign. The names are legion - Betio/Tarawa (3,200 casualties in 3 days), Iwo Jima (26,000 casualties in 40 days), Saipan (16,580 casualties in 24 days), Peleliu (10,750 casualties in 70 days) and Okinawa (72,000 casualties in 82 days). The allied casualty list for those little lumps of coral and rock were horrenderous.

Looking at these, what faced the allied planners at the end of the Okinawa battle? The invasion of the Japanese home islands. Enter "Operation Downfall" - consisting of two halves:
1. Operation Olympic - the invasion of Kyushu set in November 1945
2. Operation Coronet - the invasion of Honshu ser in Spring 1945

The fanatical resistance of the Japanese so far - set in their Bushido code of no surrender (indeed. In the islands that the Marines captured after cloody fighting, they managed to take few - if any - prisoners of war. The Japanese either fought to the last man or shot himself rather than surrender) had cost the allied tens of thousands (and the Japanese hundreds of thousands). The civillian population was being primed to 'resist the savage American beast' with little more than bamboo spears if needs be, rather than surrender and face dishonour and shame.

On 16 July President Truman was in Berlin. On 16 July the first atomic test was conducted, but the results had yet to be analyzed. He was in Europe and not able to convene a JCS meeting. Even after the atomic test results were analyzed and determined to be successful, planning for the invasion of Japan went ahead because there was no guarantee that this new weapon would compel the Japanese to surrender.

What was the projected casualty rates for Operation Downfall (Olympic + Coronet) ??

In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April, the figures of 7.45 casualties/1000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities/1000 man-days were developed. This implied that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities.

In a conference with President Truman on 18 June, George C Marshall, using the recapture of Luzon as the best model for Olympic, thought the Americans would suffer 31,000 casualties in the first 30 days (and ultimately 20% of Japanese casualties, which implied a total of 70,000 casualties). Adm. Leahy, using the recently completed Battle of Okinawa, thought the American forces would suffer a 35% casualty rate (implying an ultimate toll of 268,000).

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7–4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

LINK

In anycase, the Japanese were bound to suffer more casualties (certainly at a higher rate) than the Americans - as had been demonstrated by the previous years worth of combat all across the Pacific.


So Truman was faced with massive death by combat if he invaded - or massive death of the Japanese by starvation had he not (and let the war drag on for who knows how many years?).

It was in the interests of all sane people in the world to end the war ASAP.

What would you have Truman do?

Oh and just as a little foot note:

"When Specialist Martin J. Begosh of the 1st Armored Division was wounded by a land mine in Bosnia on 29 December 1995, he, like every soldier, airman, sailor, and Marine wounded in Korea, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf War, received a Purple Heart for valor, a medal minted in preparation for the invasion o

 

[Roughneck]

Hmmm, my footnote should read:


Oh and just as a little foot note:

When Specialist Martin J. Begosh of the 1st Armored Division was wounded by a land mine in Bosnia on 29 December 1995, he, like every soldier, airman, sailor, and Marine wounded in Korea, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf War, received a Purple Heart for valor, a medal minted in preparation for the invasion of Japan in 1945.

"Portions of the half-century-old Purple Heart medals are periodically shipped to a private contractor for cleaning and to have new ribbons attached. Since 1945, more than 370,000 have been awarded to wounded U.S. military personnel and the families of those killed in action. The Defense Personnel Support Center's stock of Purple Hearts stood at approximately 35,000 after the Korean and Vietnam wars, and remains almost unchanged today."

CASUALTY PROJECTIONS FOR THE U.S. INVASIONS OF JAPAN, 1945-1946: PLANNING AND POLICY IMPLICATIONS
by D. M. Giangreco in the Journal of Military History, 61 (July 1997)

In other words: The stockpile of Purple Hearts minted to meet the expected casualties of the invasion of Japan, still remain in stock today - despite American involvement in Korea, Vietnam, Gulf I, Kosovo and Gulf II.


cheers,

 

[Roughneck]

you don't know, no-one knows, how presumptuous of any of us to speak about things that would have happened if... how the hell do any of us know. There's no way of knowing those kinds of things, so those kinds of points aren't really too valid as strong arguments.

This is a direct contradiction of:

that says the war was 7-10 days from being over, the Japanese were on the verge of surrender and weakening, and that the bombs were dropped partly as a test, partly as a show of strength, and partly as a final nail in an already sealed coffin.

How do you know Japan was 7-10 days away from surrender? Fair is fair - if you claim that we couldn't have know that Japan would not have surrendered then you also couldn't have known if Japan would have surrendered.

You believe (along with others) the war would have gone on, millions would have died... I do not believe that, and INCINERATING THOSE CIVILIANS of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, instantly, through those nuclear bombs, is TO ME the most inhumane act of all... at least RIGHT on a level with the Nazis and the Jews. AT LEAST the Nazis had to look in their faces before they gassed those poor Jews... it's a lot easier, a lot colder, and just as sickening... when you press a little button and incinerate an entire city of people from a small aircraft far above. Bastards. All of them.

Well to be truthfull - more civillians were "incinerated" (many of them also died slowly from burns. Many died from asphyxiation. Some were brutally crushed under rubble and then burned to death... want me to highlight some more ugly ways to die to prove the old point that war is hell?) in ONE fire bombing raid on Tokyo.

Over 100,000.

That's more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. But ofcourse, that happened with "non horrific" conventional weapons.

And like I said to Thomas, even if I'm wrong about the war being virtually over, which I don't believe for a second... who are you to decide how many would have died if we didn't nuke those cities... who is anyone. Who knows when or if Japan would have surrendered. Maybe the following day. A lot of people believe it was a week or so away. That's the sick part

Well, given how they were acting right as we marched up through the Pacific - they were mighty funny in showing their willingness to surrender.

Here's the other fabulous part - we dropped the first bomb and waited... waited... waited... waited...

... for three days.

Funny - no white flag of surrender. No peace overtures. No nothing. :dunno:

Hey - sure makes it seem like they were 'on the verge of surrendering'. I mean, you'd think that even if dropping the first one was bad - they could have suerly avoided the second. All they had to do was "Ok! Enough is enough. Let's stop this war".

But they didn't.


I'm not belittling the suffering caused by the bomb - just trying to point out that the suffering would have been infinitely worse had the war dragged on.



cheers,

 

[D-rock]

My point was that some believe Japan was already beaten, some believe nearly beaten, but the only legitimate story in America is that they would have had to send millions of ground troops in without the nukes...

Who knows the truth... who knows if Japan did surrender after the first nuke, or if they were about to... who knows if they ever would have surrendered at all... I believe they were about to, Americans tend to think they weren't, but those are just not valid arguments... all we can really argue is what happened. Japan may have surrendered five minutes later without the bombs, a lot of people think surrender was imminent, and all the facts that "prove" otherwise are voiced by the victors, so it's hard to trust them as facts.

I have never seen any conclusive evidence to suggest Japan was on the verge of surrender. Even if there is, which might be doubtful, I doubt we would have known it at the time. None of us are clairvoyant, but that doesn't mean we can't use logical and deductive reasoning to figure out what the future is going to hold for us. Just because I can't be sure the world isn't going to blow up form some unseen comet hitting it tomorrow, doesn't mean I probably won't be wrong in saying it isn't going to happen. Given the situation at hand, it seems things would have pointed in that direction. I am as untrustworthy of the U.S. government as anybody, yet I'm not going to think everything they say is automatically wrong. Furthermore after the war not only did Japan become one of the relatively most peaceful nations on Earth but they also became an economic powerhouse. I wonder what the chances of that happening are if we just left things the way they were. Yet there are always people out there that will always chastise us for dropping the bombs, even while I believe most of cooler logical thinking people out there, even if they don't like it, would have to grudgingly admit it was the right discussion. Just like Roughneck said, I don’t take pleasure in what happened. I would have much preferred if a war never happened and nobody had to die at all. I would have preferred everybody being able to living in piece. Unfortunately reality doesn’t always give you that option.

 

[Torre82]

What might be, we'll never know.

What can be said..simple and true.. pseudo quote, dont die for yours.. make the other 'bastard' die for his. A huge sacrifice for 'victory' doesnt mean you've won.(Thus, skip the extra years of island-hopping invasions.) Sometimes you have to deliver a message. With a sledgehammer.

And who is to say.. that without that BIG exclamation point in history, that there wouldnt be something called MAD. Mutually Assured Destruction. The cold war might have proved that they truly believed we'd launch.. for fun? To win? Hell, we've done it before. The leading power in communist Russia was adamant that socialism will win the day. You all know about the 'Cuban Missile Crisis', right? All thoughts aside that many believe socialism could never have been achieved with the way it was created, maintained.. and turned out even back when.. let alone as time passed and it mimicked the evil capitalism.. ehh, off topic, there.

I believe the truth is that noone even thought the atomic bomb would work outside of a theory, back when. Secret tests and whispers dont prove a 'doomsday' weapon exist or would work. But seeing that mushroom cloud and the death figures? Nail on the head. It works. Really well.

The grey area was gone. Black or white. We're either invincible because we wield the power of mass destruction... or we're ALL dead. M.A.D.

BTW, I turn 24 August 6th.

 

[hily]

I dont know how "peace was invaded" the world was anything BUT peace in 1945. Right away that struck me.

 

[serpentor]

I have always been curious about the dates that the American government deceided to drop the bombs, since the Soviets as part of the cease fire agreements in Europe would be declaring war on Japan on August 10 if I remember correctly.