Spain : Catalonia's getting ready for Sunday's vote on independance. Spain gov. says unconstionnal

[Johan]

Catalonia independence vote: Why it's happening, and why it matters to U.S.


Europe faces another high-stakes secession vote this weekend after Scotland's failed referendum on independence from the United Kingdom in the 2014, and the U.K.'s vote last year to leave the European Union, probably by 2019. This time around, Spain is in the hot seat as its semi-autonomous region of Catalonia pushes ahead Sunday with an independence referendum that Madrid says is illegal and wants to block. Here's why it's happening, and why it matters.


Catalonia 101

Catalonia is one of Spain's 17 semi-autonomous regions. It is situated in the country's northeast, Barcelona is its lively and tourist-friendly capital, and it's home to 7.5 million people. Spanish and Catalan are the official languages, but Catalan is the dominant one. Catalonia contributes disproportionately to Spain's national coffers. It accounts for about one-fifth of the country's economy and 30% of foreign trade. Technology, fashion and pharmaceuticals are among its major industries.


When did this all start?

Catalonia emerged as an autonomous community several hundred years ago. Its drive for independence in modern times can be traced to the Spanish Civil War, when the country's military dictator Francisco Franco abolished any hopes of full autonomy. He suppressed the region's culture, language and many civil liberties. After Franco's death in 1975, and Spain's return to democracy, Catalonia opted to pursue more limited forms of political control rather than full independence.


Why is Catalonia's vote happening now?

Momentum has been building for several years. In 2014, the region held a symbolic, non-binding independence vote. It passed easily with 80% support. However, turnout was less than 40% and polls show opinion is probably more closely split. Catalans resent contributing far more in tax revenues to Spain's central government than any other region and increased calls for independence have coincided with the country's financial crisis. Catalonians feel they are a victim of their own economic success. There is widespread dissatisfaction over what they see as Madrid's insufficient recognition of Catalan culture, language and identity.

"This did not happen because some politician said it was a good idea. It came about because individual citizens and groups and communities got together and said: 'We need to change the situation. It's not working for us,'" said Liz Castro, a Barcelona-based American writer and researcher, who supports independence.


What’s at stake?

Pro-independence Catalonians say that if the vote is blocked by Spain, democracy itself is under threat. Madrid has already seized millions of ballots, detained more than a dozen senior officials organizing the vote, shut down election websites and deployed thousands of police to bar access to voting stations. Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy says the vote "won't happen" and the country's public prosecutor has threatened Catalonia's president, Carles Puigdemont, with arrest. But in an interview with USA TODAY, Puigdemont insisted he won't back down. "The vote will go ahead," he said.

If the vote takes place — and if it passes convincingly — Puigdemont has said he will announce a split from Spain within 48 hours, thus throwing Spain into its most serious political crisis since the time of Franco. Puigdemont said there is zero chance Catalans will resort to violence. However, tensions will be high.


Why it matters to the United States

President Trump has appeared to take Spain's side on the issue. "I would like to see Spain continue to be united," he said in Washington this week in a news conference with Rajoy. "I think that nobody knows if they’re going to have a vote."

If this there is a vote, and if Catalonia somehow, against the odds, finds a path to independence, the impact on the U.S. would be indirect. It could lead to chaos in Europe which would roil financial markets and hurt U.S.-European stability.

Jaime Malet, president of the American Chamber of Commerce in Spain, said there are concerns social unrest could erupt — creating confusion for investors — but any impact on the business community ultimately depends on how you assess risk.
"There are companies that have continued to invest in the U.K. despite of Brexit," he said, referring to the U.K.'s vote to leave the EU. "There are also companies investing in Syria, and other places (and conflict zones) right now where the risks are high. It depends on the business, and what the company is planning to do."

Malet added that he was less concerned about what happens on Sunday than about what happens in the days and weeks after the vote — assuming it goes ahead.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...why-vote-happening-and-why-matters/715609001/

My take on this is that spain should allow the vote to happen. I don't think catalans would choose to become independant. But whatever the result of the vote, the government of Spain MUST negociate with catalonia's officials, give them more autonomy, more rcognition for catalan's culture, language and identity.
An independant Catalonia would be bad news for both Spain's and Catalonia's economy.

 

[Mayhem]

I say Vive' La Resistance! Catalonia wants independence, give it to them. The Kurds want independence, give it to them. Mississippi and Alabama want independence, I'll donate barbed wire to the border patrol. I suppose land mines would be out of the question. Pussies.

It's time for a new world order because the old one seems to have run its course. Whether these small republics work or not, fuck it they're worth a try. Vive' La Resistance!

 

[Johan]

Actually we don't really know wether catalans want to split with Spain or not. The fact a vote on independance is organised doesn't necessary means a majority of people wants independance : in 2014 Scottland voted to dtermine wether they would stay in the UK become independant. 55% of the voters choosed to stay in the UK (althought they are now having second thoughts and would like to vote again since Brexit changed the situation).

And people's opinion opinion on the issue can be quite versatile : 3-4 years ago when Spain's economy was really bad, supprt for the split was quite high but with Spain's economy getting better support for the split has decreased since.

 

[Jagger69]

This nationalism thing has got to peak sometime soon. Nationalism breeds protectionism which breeds isolationism which breeds wars. Enough war already.

 

[pornobh]

personally I am not a big fan of people voting to become "independent" from their own country... Are they not free to do what they want to do in their own country? What is driving them to vote this way? just because their economy is doing better they want independence from the country? Lets think about what would happen if New York and California have a vote of if they want to be independent of the US.

A lot of times foreign influence may be involved like the influence of the Russians at Crimea in Ukraine or the influence Pakistan has on Kashmir in India. Are we playing as pawns in someone else game?

 

[Rattrap]

I say Vive' La Resistance! Catalonia wants independence, give it to them. The Kurds want independence, give it to them. Mississippi and Alabama want independence, I'll donate barbed wire to the border patrol. I suppose land mines would be out of the question. Pussies.

It's time for a new world order because the old one seems to have run its course. Whether these small republics work or not, fuck it they're worth a try. Vive' La Resistance!

I couldn't agree more. I support most independence votes/movements.

This nationalism thing has got to peak sometime soon. Nationalism breeds protectionism which breeds isolationism which breeds wars. Enough war already.

If you're referring to nationalism as a driver for these independence movements, I'd more or less agree with your sentiment that this isn't a constructive way to go. But I think we've largely also seen that the bigger the government (in terms of populational and geographic representation), the farther it gets away from the people - it's for this reason I often support independence movements. I have little doubts this is why world rankings on happiness, health, etc., are often small countries. There are a couple of areas where this doesn't fly, namely environmental (nature don't give a sheeeet about them borders) but for the most part...

For example, I think the majority voted for Brexit for the wrong reasons, but I think there could actually be a lot of good out of it. None of the scenarios including a good outcome include the Tories in power, though. If the trends from the last election continue, though, that might be the last election that's the case.

 

[LunaMo]

The people feel strongly about this, give them what they want, see if it works out

 

[Jagger69]

If you're referring to nationalism as a driver for these independence movements, I'd more or less agree with your sentiment that this isn't a constructive way to go. But I think we've largely also seen that the bigger the government (in terms of populational and geographic representation), the farther it gets away from the people - it's for this reason I often support independence movements. I have little doubts this is why world rankings on happiness, health, etc., are often small countries. There are a couple of areas where this doesn't fly, namely environmental (nature don't give a sheeeet about them borders) but for the most part...

For example, I think the majority voted for Brexit for the wrong reasons, but I think there could actually be a lot of good out of it. None of the scenarios including a good outcome include the Tories in power, though. If the trends from the last election continue, though, that might be the last election that's the case.

Well, all you have to do is look at 17th century Europe to know that this type of national fragmentation has not gone well. As far as your reference to smaller nations and happiness, health etc....I'd draw a correlation between economic and governmental influences more than anything else. It doesn't take long to figure out a commonality between these nations (some of which, like Canada and Australia, are quite sizeable from a geographical view).

Population (or overpopulation rather) is definitely a serious driver when it comes to a happy and healthy citizenry but I also think it is safe to conclude that a drive toward independence and fragmentation is not a significant part of the equation....at least as far as I can discern. In fact, aside from shaking up the existing political order, I don't see anything good coming from the nationalist movement. The last time there was a serious movement in this direction was in the 1920s and 1930s....the rise of Germany, Italy, Japan and the Soviet Union as the major nationalist powers. I would hope that we don't need to relive that experience in order to learn from it.

 

[Rattrap]

As far as your reference to smaller nations and happiness, health etc....I'd draw a correlation between economic and governmental influences more than anything else. It doesn't take long to figure out a commonality between these nations (some of which, like Canada and Australia, are quite sizeable from a geographical view).

...and correlate that with the number of people those countries are representing, is my point. I'm arguing the smaller the population, the closer the government is to the people (even in the case of the two geographically large, yet population small countries you mention).

Let's put it this way: When the PM of Iceland, a country with something like 1/9th the population of the metro area I live in, does something heinous it only takes a couple thousand people paying attention and he's out. What do a couple thousand people paying attention get you in the US?

(That said, Iceland reports something like 50% mistrust of the government, probably because they do keep turning government over...so perhaps I should amend my argument to say, the smaller size allows for the potential of better representation - and obviously I'm speaking of functioning republics/democracies)

 

[Jagger69]

Your observation would certainly make a strong case for a decentralized national government, RT. Problem is, it's the nature of authority to consolidate power rather than distribute it. That's why the old saying about a benevolent dictator is so pertinent and just as unlikely to occur barring a freak happenstance of history. It hasn't happened yet either (not by my accounting at least) so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Rattrap]

Your observation would certainly make a strong case for a decentralized national government, RT. Problem is, it's the nature of authority to consolidate power rather than distribute it.

Exactly.

 

[Johan]

Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds hurt' as police try to stop voters


Barcelona's mayor says at least 460 people have been injured as police have used force to try to prevent voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.

The Spanish government has pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.
Police officers are preventing some people from voting, and seizing ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.
In the regional capital Barcelona, police used batons and fired rubber bullets during pro-referendum protests.


What is the latest?

Updating the injury toll to 460, Barcelona's Mayor Ada Colau condemned police actions against what she said was the region's "defenceless" population.

Meanwhile, the Spanish interior ministry said 12 police officers had been hurt and three people arrested. It added that 92 polling stations had been closed.

The national police and Guardia Civil - a paramilitary force charged with police duties - were sent into Catalonia in large numbers to prevent the vote from taking place.

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont said: "The unjustified use of violence... by the Spanish state will not stop the will of the Catalan people"
Spain's Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria said police had "acted with professionalism and in a proportionate way"
Spanish Interior Minister Juan Ignacio Zoido blamed Mr Puigdemont for what he termed the day's senseless events
The Guardia Civil said it was "resisting harassment and provocation" while carrying out its duties "in defence of the law"

One voter, Júlia Graell, told the BBC that "police started to kick people, young and old", adding: "Today, I have seen the worst actions that a government can do to the people of its own country."
In Girona, riot police smashed their way into a polling station where Mr Puigdemont was due to vote, and forcibly removed those looking to place their ballots. Mr Puigdemont was able to vote at another polling station.
The BBC's Tom Burridge, in Barcelona, witnessed police being chased away from one polling booth after they had raided it.

Since Friday, thousands of people have occupied schools and other buildings designated as polling stations in order to keep them open.
Many of those inside were parents and their children, who remained in the buildings after the end of lessons on Friday and bedded down in sleeping bags on gym mats.
In some areas, farmers positioned tractors on roads and in front of polling station doors, and school gates were taken away to make it harder for the authorities to seal buildings off. Firefighters have acted as human shields between police and demonstrators.
Referendum organisers had called for peaceful resistance to any police action.

Meanwhile, FC Barcelona's match against Las Palmas was played behind closed doors, after Barcelona said the football league refused to suspend the game.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032

The way the spanish goernment is handling this is terrible : News and images of peacefull voters getting manhandled violent police are all over the news, all over the world. Right now, Mariabo Rajoy and his government look like an authoritarian dictatorship. Not even mentioning thatusing violence to sto people from voting will surely make even more catalans to support the independentists.