Psychologists, Therapists, Psychiatrists, etc...

[Roughneck]

Let's take a look at one of, if not the most common diagnosis that is given in the United States; DEPRESSION.

The crucial missing point from that following diatribe of yours is your ignorance about how medical professionals arrive at a diagnosis.

As I mentioned earlier - "treat the patient, not the data". Putting it simply, unless you're symptomatic to the point where it's affecting your function - you don't qualify. I might diagnose you with "at risk for" - but that doesn't necessarily mean you're diagnosed "with".

E.g.: A few years ago, my buddy lost his job when the company he was working for tanked. At that time, he was the sole bread winner for his family. He was unemployed for a few months and I remember my wife and I (and a couple neighbors) chipping in to help out (baby sit the kids because they couldn't hire a sitter, do grocery runs, pick up kids from school etc.) Mark was under a lot of stress and he was having a difficult time dealing with it because his father had recently passed away. Did he fit the criteria for "depression"? Yes. Was he depressed? I'm no psychiatrist but I don't think so - but he sure as heck was "at risk for" 'Depression'.

These are the most generic kind of questions possible. According to these questions, almost every single person who takes this test could have clinical depression.

Chef, in my humble opinion - you don't know what you're talking about.

Again, the function of "screening tests" is not to "diagnose" but to "identify at risk populations so that early interventions can be performed if needed". Believe it or, the vast majority of medical professionals still believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

HAHAHAHAHA, REALLY? So, being a completely normal person qualifies me for "moderately severe depression"...??? No, I don't think so.

I don't think so either - but what makes you think you're a "completely normal person"?

Like I said, every single person who walks into a psychologist's office can't walk out without being diagnosed with something.

Where's that 'BS' flag smiley when I need it?

That doesn't mean that something is really wrong with them though. Psychologists use questions that are designed to have answers which can spun around in order to make it look as though you have a problem.

For example...

When I got my DUI a few years ago, I was informed by my lawyer that it would be helpful for me to get an alcohol assessment. So, I scheduled an appointment with a licensed psychologist to take my assessment. This is one of the questions I was asked...

"How many beers or shots of liquor does it take to get you drunk?"

So, I asked a follow up question...

"When you say 'drunk', do you mean buzzed, drunk or completely hammered?"

His response was, and I quote, "That's up to you."

So, no matter what my answer was, he would be able to spin it around to make it look like I have a problem. If I would've said...

"It takes me 8 beers to get drunk" (taking 'drunk' as 'buzzed"'), he could say to himself that I have a problem. 8 beers only gets him buzzed? He is an alcoholic and needs to seek help immediately.

"It takes me 12 beers to get drunk" (taking 'drunk' as 'drunk'), he could say to himself that I drink too much. 12 beers is way too many beers for someone his age to be drinking. His tolerance is too high. He is an alcoholic and needs to be in rehab.

"It takes me 18 beers to get drunk" (taking 'drunk as 'completely hammered'), he could say to himself that I drink too much. 18 beers is way too many beers for anyone to be drinking. He blacks out, which means that he is an alcoholic who has a severe drinking problem. He needs to be in rehab.

No matter what you say to a psychologist, they can spin it around to make you look like you have a problem. That's not medicine...that's sales.

*sigh* Chef - seriously, you don't know what you're talking about.... and this is a great example.

Ever hear of "open ended questioning" ?

Yes, it is glorified common sense.

<snip>

that they know things we, as regular people, can not. That's all smoke and mirrors; an illusion. Psychologists are regular people who sit and listen to your problems. Anybody can do that

:1orglaugh

You forget to mention the little tid-bit that before psychiatrists and psychologists did research on such topics, it WAS NOT 'common sense' (as you put it). In fact, it was with the help of painstaking psych research that lead us to what we now know today: that the vast majority of kids who are sexually abused are abused by their own family members (or members close to the family) and not 'that random douche bag on the street'.

People who walk into a psychologist's office have already made up their mind that they're about to get some sort of miracle treatment that they couldn't get anywhere else. They think that psychologists have some sort of special knowledge that nobody else can have and that they need to visit a psychologist in order to be cured.

Man, I WISH people would actually have this fantasy and GO TALK to a psychiatrist! Chef - you have no frikkin' clue as to how difficult it is to convince people to go "talk to a shrink". Mental illness is a HUGE stigma in our society.

Meaning, unless you have surrendered all hope and have exhausted all other options, AA (group therapy) isn't going to help you.

You have to want to be there and, in order to want to be there, you have to be desperate; desperate for help, desperate for a cure.

(emphasis in red are mine)Well, in your opinion.

People who are forced into AA (via court) never get help at that point. It isn't until they reach the point in their life where they willingly want to be there that it will start helping them.

I agree with you. Forcing people to rehab (the law) is quite counter-productive, IMO. What works better are community based initiatives - friends, family, neighbors... people that the pt. is familiar with.

Psychology and therapy is no different than religion; it only works if you want it to work.

But Chef - why blame pshychiatry or AA? Your argument can be used for ANY of life's medical maladies ... diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular disease, cancer, smoking, renal failure etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Is ALL of medical science "glorified common sense" because "unless the pt. wants it, they'll never get any real help?"

Should I stop telling the morbidly obese pt. to stop over eating and consult with a nutritionist and physical therapy so that he can lose weight? I mean, after all, the "patient doesn't want it at this point, so it won't work any way".

Should I stop telling the alcoholic who shows up in my ER every other day at 0800 complaining of "nausea/vomitting" to stop drinking because he's killing his liver and killing himself? Should I stop referring him psychiatry to help him cope with his alcohol abuse? Because, you know ... "the patient doens't want it at this point, so it won't work anyway".

I could give you a hundred more examples...

Maybe you should petition Congress to ban the use of AMA ("Against Medical Advice") forms.

FYI - I am well aware that there are psychiatrists that prescribe medicine to their patients in order to help alleviate symptoms which are caused by physical abnormalities in the brain. Sometimes the medicine helps, sometimes it doesn't. I am not denying that there are cases where some sort of help is obtained. But, as a whole, I think it's all just a magic show.

Well, like most layfolk you make the common mistake (borne of ignorance of the facts) of assuming that medicine - especially psychiatry - is all about "pills".

I've never read an entire text book on psychology, no. But, while I attended Cleveland State University, I had to take pscyhology courses for part of my prerequistes for my major and

<snip>

suicidal thoughts or get them over their childhood abuse.

Oooh! And this makes you the expert! Because you spent over 8 years of your life to study the field and earn a DOCTORAL degree in the specialty.

Chef, you're opinions and arguments on psychiatry are as absurd as it would be if I were to tell you how to run your restaurant (or even how to sharpen your frickin knife) because I worked 2 years in the kitchen of a big restaurant when I was in college.

All you have to do to help those people is talk to them. Connect with them. Reach them.

Pray tell us, Chef - just how do we do that? You DO know that it consists of more than just telling them that "It's ok"... or "I'm here for you"... etc., right?

How do you reach somebody? By talking and by listening. No text book can ever teach you how to do that.

No, no textbook can really teach you that. In fact, no textbook can ever prepare you for real life - don't believe me? Just ask any nurse or doctor or paramedic.

What helps is guided mentorship after formal schooling - spending quality time with a practicing professional in the field. School lays the groundwork, the basics, the foundation... but for one to mature as a professional; one needs to take all that s/he has learned in school and apply it in the real world under the tutelage of a professional.

But, hey...maybe I should be a bar stool counselor. It would give me something to do while I play darts.

Please don't Chef. I realize you're jesting - but please don't.

cheers,

 

[Roughneck]

A final note:

Do I agree with everything that is proposed by the AMA and/or the Psychiatrists?
No.

A good case in point to discuss would be the 'prevalence' of ADHD in our society: few societies (even advanced Western ones like ours) are as afflicted as ours.

Are all our kids that messed up that they need to be on meds or are we missing some behavioral cues (and how we as parents/teachers/adults) respond to them?

One could point the blame at psychiatrists/pharmaceuticals - but I think the real problem is the gradual erosion of family authority. Some folks argue that ADHD has been "under diagnosed in the past, which is why we're seeing the 'explosion' in diagnoses today" - but I'm not sure I'm convinced.

Lastly, Psych just like Medicine - is an evolving science. I still remember seeing the clipping of an advertisement that was circulated when Europe was being decimated by a cholera epidemic. It stated "Smoke Ogden's Otto de Rose cigarettes. Tobacco smoke has an adverse effect on cholera bacilli according to Dr. Tassinari".

Let us also not forget, that a few decades ago, homosexuality was considered an "illness" under the DSM.

With all that being said - to willfully dismiss the entire spectrum of psychiatry and psychology as "magic" is being disingenuous at the least... and woefully ignorant at the worst.

cheers,

 

[Afficial_Nastee]

They're good for givin' you an insanity plea or to let you apply for disability money from the government....

 

[ChefChiTown]

Chef: A few thoughts -

* Psychiatrists DO help.

I stated that there are situations where they do.

The crucial missing point from that following diatribe of yours is your ignorance about how medical professionals arrive at a diagnosis.

My dad had a heart attack a few years ago. At the time, he had a triple bypass, in which they used the veins in his legs. We were told that the surgery went well, but after 7-8 years, the veins from his legs (now in his chest) would naturally begin to deteriorate, which would probably effect his health.

Fast forward to a few months ago (which would be almost 9 years after his heart attack)...

My dad started to feel sluggish, as if he didn't have much energy. He was tired and exhausted on frequent occasion. He felt this way for a while, so he decided to go see his doctor. While he was at the doctor's office, he began to explain what was bothering him. His doctor knew that my father had a triple bypass and his doctor knew that it had been 8 years since the bypass. His doctor knew that the veins in his legs would eventually begin to deteriorate, which would effect his health.

My dad explained to his doctor that he had been tired and unenergetic for a while. That is all my dad said. From that, and that alone, his doctor said that he was suffering from depression. Obviously, my father was confused, as he didn't feel depressed at all. The doctor then began writing my father a prescription and wrote down some names of psychiatrists that he personally recommended.

From the information of "I've been feeling tired and unenergetic", and that information alone, his doctor diagnosed him with DEPRESSION. Even though there was an obvious medical history staring him in the face, he ignored all of that and went straight to DEPRESSION.

My dad laughed and walked out of the room. He found a different doctor the following day. When he visited that doctor, the doctor told my dad that it was his heart which was causing his exhaustion. His heart wasn't beating normally, which was making him tired. But, the first doctor thought it was DEPRESSION.

I understand that not ALL doctors will do this. I do, I really do. But, you can't ignore the factor of money when doctors give out a diagnosis.

My aunt was a nurse for her entire life and also taught nursing school for most of that time. My aunt is a stand-up woman who is full of dignity, pride and respect. My aunt has told me countless stories of how the medical profession works (good and bad). She has told me that a lot of the doctors that she has worked for were paid a commission by drug companies, depending on how much of their product they prescribed to their patients.

:dunno:

Quick side note: I know one of the former board members for Lakewood Hospital which is located in Lakewood, Ohio (a suburb of Cleveland). Lakewood Hospital was purchased by The Cleveland Clinic, so that is why he is no longer a board member there. At the time, when he was still a board member, the hospital used to pay doctors (who were employees of the hospital) a bonus each year, based on how many prescriptions they sold.

To repeat, I understand that not ALL doctors will do this, but you honestly can't tell me that it doesn't happen.

Speaking from my own personal experience, it's happened to me, year in and year out. Every year, I get strep throat on two seperate occasions, like clockwork; the beginning of Spring, the end of Autumn. This has happened since I've been around 11 years old.

I am allergic to penicillin, so doctors can't prescribe that to me. I have been given a bunch of other alternatives that haven't worked (amoxicillin, clindamycin, cephalosporin, etc). For the past 15+ years, the same thing has happened, every single time I've visited the doctor when I have strep throat...

I walk into the office. I tell the doctor that I have strep throat. Obviously, they're not just going to take my word for it, so they give me a throat culture. There are two different versions of the throat culture; overnight and a "quick test". When I am given the overnight results, it always comes back negative; always (even when I do have strept throat). The quick test is the only one that will show up positive. I tell the doctor this (because it happens every single time), yet, they make me take the overnight culture first. Why? Money.

When the test results come back negative (which is no surprise to me), THEN I get the quick test. After the quick test comes back positive, it is now time for medicine. As I mentioned, I'm allergic to penicillin. The doctors know this, so they offer up whatever drug they like to push (it varies from doctor to doctor). I tell them that those drugs don't work and that the only medicine that helps me when I have strep throat is Z-Pak. I tell them that every single time. I tell them that if I am given a different medication, it won't work, and that Z-Pak is the only thing that makes my strep throat go away. They completely ignore me, even though it's also in my medical records, and prescribe me with their individual choice of medicine. Why? Money.

After a few days, when the medicine doesn't help and I show no signs of improvement, I return to the doctor. After the doctor sees that their prescription didn't work, THEN I get the Z-Pak.

Even though it's in my medical records that the overnight culture will always show up as "negatve" and that Z-Pak is the only medicine that works for me, doctors still continue to ignore it. Why? Money. They make me pay for the overnight culture before they give me the quick test. They make me pay for a useless prescription before they give me Z-Pak. Why? Money.

I will repeat; I understand that not ALL doctors are like this...but it happens.

I know that you work in the medical field and might take some of this to heart, but hospitals, doctor offices, clinics, psychology practices (etc) are all BUSINESSES. Businesses don't survive unless they make money. How do businesses in the medical field get money? From patients.

But, how do you get money from patients when there aren't enough patients? Upsell the patients you do have and charge them money for prescriptions and tests that they don't need. It happens in every profession, including all avenues in the medical field.

:2 cents:

And, I will repeat once again...

I am well aware that not ALL doctors do that. There actually are decent human beings out there and I am not denying that.

Ever hear of "open ended questioning" ?

Yes, I have. In fact, they're used by psychologists on a daily basis. They're also used by salesmen on a daily basis. Coincidence? :dunno:

Pray tell us, Chef - just how do we do that? You DO know that it consists of more than just telling them that "It's ok"... or "I'm here for you"... etc., right?

I'm glad you asked that. How do we connect with someone?

By talking to them. By listening to them. By paying attention.

Just by doing those 3 things, you can do A LOT for a person. It's amazing what talking can do for somebody. Why do you think so many people pick up a phone and call their best friend when something is bothering them? Why do you think that so many people go to mom's house when they feel like shit? Why do you think that so many people run here to FreeOnes and start threads about how they just broke up with their girlfriend?

It's because they know that talking helps. Through talking, you can find out what really drives a person and, no, you don't have to be a licensed therapist to figure those things out. For instance...

I don't see you post in all that many threads. Most of the threads I see you post in are related to the medical field. Why is that? Because, it's what interests you. It's what drives you and makes you go. You are passionate about medically-related things, so you are more drawn to them. That's why you clicked on this thread in the first place.

Just by paying attention and piecing things together, I found out something about you that is of importance. And, I don't even have a Masters in Psychology.

 

[Facial_King]

Yes, it is glorified common sense.

You don't have to be a psychologist to know that if someone is sexually abused as a child that they can have a pretty fucked up life. You don't have to be a psychologist to know that people want to fit in with the crowd, to have a sense of belonging. You don't have to be a psychologist to know that people often act out in order to get attention.

If you just sit back and pay attention to life, you'll know just as much as a licensed psychologist does about people and the way their minds work.

It's all common sense, but psychologists make it seem as if it is some sort of knowledge that can only be gained through higher learning. People are under the impression that psychologists are brilliant; that they know things we, as regular people, can not. That's all smoke and mirrors; an illusion. Psychologists are regular people who sit and listen to your problems. Anybody can do that, but...

People who walk into a psychologist's office have already made up their mind that they're about to get some sort of miracle treatment that they couldn't get anywhere else. They think that psychologists have some sort of special knowledge that nobody else can have and that they need to visit a psychologist in order to be cured.

I've yet to meet a pscyh professional who claimed that they had "some sort of special knowledge that nobody else can have." Much like about any field or discipline, if you have some reasonable smarts and are willing to put in the study and work, you can learn whatever you want - you can gain whatever knowledge is out there.

The university system is certainly not the only way to learn about pschology and psychiatry and such, but our society has developed a quasi-meritocratic system that coordinates and monitors education in those fields and rewards those who master the subject with the appropriate credentials. Much like how you went to culinary school. Maybe you COULD have learned all of that cooking stuff at home, but you went out and paid for an education in it, and got a credential, right?

Anyway, as for your standard "common sense" line (which is really just a cover for saying "If I know it, it's common sense, if I don't know it, it isn't!") about the field, consider this phenomenon and tell me how common sense, not serious and deliberate clinical study, could explain it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

:dunno:

 

[Spleen]

Depends on each case.

For me, no one can help, I'm doomed (which also means you all are too) but some people could gain a lot just by having someone to talk to.

 

[king_joker]

I think they're all a fucking waste of time and money. If you don't know what's wrong with yourself, how the hell do you expect them to?

And I don't mean to sound hateful, but I had someone try to send me to one of those fuckers. I saved them the time and effort, long story short.

 

[ChefChiTown]

I've yet to meet a pscyh professional who claimed that they had "some sort of special knowledge that nobody else can have." Much like about any field or discipline, if you have some reasonable smarts and are willing to put in the study and work, you can learn whatever you want - you can gain whatever knowledge is out there.

Every psychologist that I've ever talked to talks down to me, as if they know more than I do. Every single time I've had a conversation with someone in the psychology field, they always give me that "you just don't understand" attitude. To me, that screams arrogance and I don't like it.

The university system is certainly not the only way to learn about pschology and psychiatry and such, but our society has developed a quasi-meritocratic system that coordinates and monitors education in those fields and rewards those who master the subject with the appropriate credentials. Much like how you went to culinary school. Maybe you COULD have learned all of that cooking stuff at home, but you went out and paid for an education in it, and got a credential, right?

My credentials (degree) doesn't mean that I'm a good cook. In fact, nobody's credentials, in the sense of degrees, means that they're good at anything. It just means they went to school for a few years and got passing grades in their classes...nothing more.

Anyway, as for your standard "common sense" line (which is really just a cover for saying "If I know it, it's common sense, if I don't know it, it isn't!") about the field, consider this phenomenon and tell me how common sense, not serious and deliberate clinical study, could explain it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

:dunno:

That's not how I view common sense at all.

Every single little detail about Stockholm Syndrome isn't common sense (as far as it's roots, historical research, case studies, etc) but you don't have to be a licensed psychologist to know that people are going to become submissive in a hostage situation, which is going to cause them to adapt to the company of their captures, AKA - relate to them.

If somebody locked you in a room and had control of your fate/life, you'd probably avoid pissing them off and focus on making them happy. The easiest way to do that is to submit and adapt to your surroundings by identifying with them. You don't need a degree and you don't need to charge $300/hour to know that.

 

[jewelcity]

Yes!

 

[Roughneck]

Every single little detail about Stockholm Syndrome isn't common sense (as far as it's roots, historical research, case studies, etc) but you don't have to be a licensed psychologist to know that people are going to become submissive in a hostage situation, which is going to cause them to adapt to the company of their captures, AKA - relate to them.

If somebody locked you in a room and had control of your fate/life, you'd probably avoid pissing them off and focus on making them happy. The easiest way to do that is to submit and adapt to your surroundings by identifying with them. You don't need a degree and you don't need to charge $300/hour to know that.

Then why the heck aren't you offering your "common sense cures" to all those afflicted with mental disease?

Forget "mental disease" - why haven't you offered your services to "victims of Stockholm Syndrome"?

"you don't have to be a licensed psychologist to know that people are going to become submissive in a hostage situation, which is going to cause them to adapt to the company of their captures, AKA - relate to them."

Absolutely! Now that we know what afflicts the victims, we can go about helping them!"

So, dear Chef --- how would YOU handle a "Stockholm Syndrome" case? What would YOU say or DO to the victim?

I'm all fucking ears...


- R.

 

[r_s90]

no - they're just there for people to talk to - they don't actually help

 

[emceeemcee]

psychiatrists just dole out pills and make up shit about how they work and the supposed biological origins of suffering


Psychology is a valid field of science full of useless ideas - the fact that psychologists have started teaching Buddhist ideas is an admission of this. It might actually start helping people now instead of making them feel like therapy didn't work for them because they were the ones not trying hard enough, not because it was ineffective bullshit.

 

[Shifty]

psychiatrists just dole out pills and make up shit about how they work and the supposed biological origins of suffering

Agreed. They tend to throw pills at people and see what happens.

 

[CurtJa]

Never done anything for me, though I think it's clear people with serious disorders need 'em. There was a paranoid schizo off his meds who tried to run down a group of people "stalking him" within the last month here.

For whatever reason, everybody I know in psychology or psychiatry is a little bonkers himself or herself.

 

[STDiva]

Has anybody seen Chef lately??

 

[Supafly]

I think that the success of a therapy depends if you are ready for it and open for the therapy. And if you keep going when the first little steps are done and you start touching on the darker things that you have pushed back into your subconscious or drowned in alcohol, pills, whatever.

A therapist is just giving you a hand and can guide you along the way, but you are the one who has to do the walking on your own.

If you want some prescribed drugs to get stable again or want someone to solve your problem, you are not going to get any better.

On the other hand, I highly recommend the book 'Moksha' by Aldous Huxley. He wrote a history of society and drugs, and found that there hasn't been any form of society yet that could work without more or less of its inhabitants relying on drug use to take pressure off them.

I could elaborate some more, but that is the thing in a nutshell.

And drugs can be anything from coca, mead, hashish, heroin, coffee, sex, work , sport, TV, you name it.

So, maybe you can accept that you are relying on some outside help to make you feel better when you are stressed out :2 cents:

 

[bustybbwlover]

on the 'everyone walks out of the office with a diagnosis' statement, i went to a psychiatrist at kaiser cuz my family was worried about me and he said there was nothing wrong with me (i.e. didn't say i needed more sessions or meds) as to whether or not they do anything i would say that yes they can but only if an individual is willing

 

[luis1972]

Some people need their help

 

[mrtrebus]

I believe they do good. . .

 

[Red Spyder]

I do think they help but if I were to go see one I wouldn't be surprised if I were diagnosed with something, I mean, when I see kids as young as 4 or 5 being given meds just because they're "hyperactive", come on, they're kids, they're supposed to be a bit hyper and restless. They can't pay attention in school? Neither could I, and I almost made valedictorian anyway (got suspended for a week from school so part of my punishment was that I couldn't be valedictorian, they gave me something called "salutatorian", oh, please)

But anyway here's just a few words of wisdom from an expert in the field
http://www.tomcruiseisnuts.com/5_psych.php
:rofl: