Pornstars and Abuse
- Thread starter guittarjedi
- Start date
sorry
I think most pron stars men or women do it because they like.
I was just stating I hate abuse
S
sputnikgirl
Guest
It's fine, fresno. I wasn't referring to you. My comment was directed at those who refuse to acknowledge the element fetishes play in everyone's sexuality. Everyone has a fetish that another person would consider depraved, whether they admit to it or not.
I don't condone abuse either, but there are ways people deal with sexual abuse other than going into the porn industry. For example, I knew a girl in school who was molested by a neighbor. She became a nun.
Dr. Drew isn't much of a doctor if that's his hypothesis.
I think xxaru encapsulated it pretty well.....
Well naturally that's the fantasy the industry (and performers) sell; the one they count on for their mega-profits; but of course it's mostly BS. Very few women in porn do porn primarily for the sex.
I hear you sputnik. And we do live in a society full of professional victims, which is a very disturbing trend.
But in this case, in this industry, those "choices" are often made by very young women who have yet to develop much of a sense of self or any real foresight. Women who, if nothing else, are often struggling with self-esteem issues and ripe to be taken advantage of. Girls influenced by all manner of less than positive motivations, from pleasing their glorified pimp boyfriends to wanting to stike back at their emotionally (and/or physically) abusive parents via an act of extreme rebellion. The industry is only too aware of this, often promises them the moon, then uses them up and spits 'em out. And where do they go from there? If they weren't emotionally scarred coming into the biz that's a great recipe for them being so leaving it.
Yes ultimately the choices are still there's, but imo in this case that's a very tangled web.
That is, as Al Gore might say, an inconventient truth - an unsettling dichotomy. And many of us are hypocrites to one degree or another about it. I haven't purchased or rented a xxx video since finding out (back in 1995) that a member of my extended family was a hard working porn star. Hearing of her experiences, and those of several of her co-workers (that I met through her) really put me off the video end of the industry. But I still dig softcore porn so yes my indignation, such as it is, is selective and could, I suppose, be considered hypocritical to at least some degree.
Why are they dangerous? How are they unfair? Are you sick of hearing about them because they're disquieting? Because there's no question there's a good bit of truth in them.
I think xxaru encapsulated it pretty well.....
bigbadbrody said:
Well naturally that's the fantasy the industry (and performers) sell; the one they count on for their mega-profits; but of course it's mostly BS. Very few women in porn do porn primarily for the sex.
sputnikgirl said:
I hear you sputnik. And we do live in a society full of professional victims, which is a very disturbing trend.
But in this case, in this industry, those "choices" are often made by very young women who have yet to develop much of a sense of self or any real foresight. Women who, if nothing else, are often struggling with self-esteem issues and ripe to be taken advantage of. Girls influenced by all manner of less than positive motivations, from pleasing their glorified pimp boyfriends to wanting to stike back at their emotionally (and/or physically) abusive parents via an act of extreme rebellion. The industry is only too aware of this, often promises them the moon, then uses them up and spits 'em out. And where do they go from there? If they weren't emotionally scarred coming into the biz that's a great recipe for them being so leaving it.
Yes ultimately the choices are still there's, but imo in this case that's a very tangled web.
sputnikgirl said:
That is, as Al Gore might say, an inconventient truth - an unsettling dichotomy. And many of us are hypocrites to one degree or another about it. I haven't purchased or rented a xxx video since finding out (back in 1995) that a member of my extended family was a hard working porn star. Hearing of her experiences, and those of several of her co-workers (that I met through her) really put me off the video end of the industry. But I still dig softcore porn so yes my indignation, such as it is, is selective and could, I suppose, be considered hypocritical to at least some degree.
squallumz said:
Why are they dangerous? How are they unfair? Are you sick of hearing about them because they're disquieting? Because there's no question there's a good bit of truth in them.
squallumz
knows petras secret: she farted.
its dangerous because you cannot make a general statement about a group and call it true throughout. generalizations are stupid and are never consistent. and who is this "dr. drew" guy to make a statement about something like this? this is someones guess and should not be taken serious.
Well as I mentioned I agree it was ridiculous for him to make a blanket statement like that. Ill informed AND unprofessional. Of the several porn actresses I knew only two had been sexually abused, so there, based on my experience, goes his theory. On the other hand just about all of them came from troubled backgrounds, were running from something, or under the influence of somebody that didn't have their best interest at heart. So I feel fairly comfortable generalizing somewhat about an emotional/experiential profile that's far less inflammatory than Dr Drew's.
I'm not sure whether you count me among those, but here's my take:
I see way too many people say things like "well, that's not my thing, but whatever gets you off is fine by me" when they really shouldn't. Some fetishes* are indicative of mental illness; thus, they should not be tolerated. I am ordinarily very tolerant, but a few things really annoy me. "Fetishes" that cause harm to oneself and/or to another (whether through direct action or through indirect demand) are where I personally draw the line.
That said, I've stated before that I don't have a problem with fetishism itself, even when any particular fetish becomes an obsession (which psychologists may see as a mental disorder). Obsessions are generally undesirable, but they are not necessarily harmful.
* Used loosely as "something that a person likes very strongly."
I'm not convinced that Dr. Drew made the claim exactly as guittarjedi presents it. I couldn't find anything like it with a quick google. What happened to your skepticism, oh disbeliever-of-the-CDC? :tongue:squallumz said:
I think at best it might be something that has a small kernel of truth to it that the guy completely exaggerated about. I'm sure there are a lot of performers that were not abused in any way. It's not right to make generalizations like that. There are people in porn that make you wonder though. I would say as a group on average their mental stability is lower than that of an average person with a definitely noticeable that throw off that average for them. What causes that is only speculation without going and asking every one of them and having them tell you the truth. That isn't also to say that the industry doesn't pray on the naivety (And while I’m not trying to be mean often it’s their downright stupidity also) of young women to get them into it when it's probably a very bad decision, because that happens all the time. Like almost all businesses, but maybe even worse, they think about their bottom line first not the well being of the people they shoot. It also uses the fact some people are desperate or are on drugs to get them in or keep them there. While some of the things they do might be unethical and immoral that's probably different then what people think of as "abuse" in the traditional sense. Some people are just that greedy also and the lure of easy money is too much for them to resist. There are a few people that just like the sex that much, but despite what the industry tries to portray itself as, those people are pretty rare.
I also wonder what can be classified as "abuse". I'm sure some people could almost broaden that definition to include almost every person on Earth if they wanted to.
By far the main reason people get into it is for the relatively easy money. That reason is probably ten times bigger than the next 100 reasons people get into it combined.
I also wonder what can be classified as "abuse". I'm sure some people could almost broaden that definition to include almost every person on Earth if they wanted to.
By far the main reason people get into it is for the relatively easy money. That reason is probably ten times bigger than the next 100 reasons people get into it combined.
Yes, there is that too. In the early 90s meth use became rampant within the biz. And then you've got the herpes situation Belladonna spoke to, which in it's own (and to some perhaps puzzling) way tends to keep them there as well.
Sorry, but I'm still not convinced that Pinsky claimed all female pornstars have suffered from abuse. If he really did, then why can't I find even one blogger ripping Pinsky apart for saying that?
Again, I want to see at least one credible reference. Otherwise, this is just a Pinsky-slamming thread with no real evidence and a few anecdotes.
BTW, I'm concerned about this because I relied upon Pinsky's claims in regards to another topic.
that statement is technically correct, but I think it doesn't follow through in it's logic. that is dismissing the concept that there exists harmful consequences to ANY action, based simply on the fact that there are some actions that do not. I guess you can call it the reverse boy who cries wolf.
there are people who think that having sex before marriage is depraved. there are people that think throwing puppies into a wood-chipper for kicks is depraved. and there are people that think showing an image of Mohamed is depraved.
All of these are legitimate viewpoints, because morality itself is subjective, but it isn't all that there is. Those things are not all the same, because some of them are simply opinions about personal taste, and some of them are things that are actually destructive and harmful to others. the only thing worse than pretending that they are all the same, would be to pretend that none of them are depraved at all.
You say that people should be responsible for what they do. But how do you define responsibility?
Is it accepting the consequences of actions, most especially your own? That goes back to what I am saying.
Or is it acknowledging and realizing the circumstances and situations that contributed to an action? People are the total sum of their experiences. everything that you do effects your experience, and everything that you experience effects what you do.
There are people that "make their own choices" independent from either one of these criterias. They are the most irresponsible people of all. they are psychopaths. They don't accept or conceptualize any consequence to their actions, there actions are divorced from results, and they are not based on any experience or perceivable reasoning, if you ask them why they do what they do they would tell you " I don't know." Those are the people that are depraved.
I hope that you can see the point of all this, that it is important to understand the reasons behind things, that it is just as important as understanding the results.
you say that "if people really cared about the mental health of porn stars... then they wouldn't watch porn." So right there you are acknowledging that porn is connected in some way to bad mental health, contradicting what you said earlier.
I'll be frank, and I'm sorry if it's harsh.. but the most basic and true response to trauma and abuse by people is denial, and that is what most convinces me that many of the things you are defending or dismissing are abusive.
I don't mean to single you out here with this long response, it's just that this is a continued conversation from ones we've been having in other threads.
S
sputnikgirl
Guest
I don't see how that statement is a contradiction. I watch porn, but then again, I don't go into the "talk" forum and pretend I'm morally superior/mentally superior to everyone who has a sexual fetish.
With that statement, I'm referring to the hypocrites who are totally fine with watching...then turn around and dismiss the very people they're watching as abused, sick, mentally disturbed, etc. You can't piss on someone's head and then pass it off as rain, so to speak. People who have to use those tactics to build themselves up in their own mind are just sad.
If people are so morally outraged by the gonzo/niche porn that dominates the industry today, then why do they continue to watch? I'm not denying that abuse happens, and continues to happen. However, as a woman I find it offensive that it's portrayed as the only reason women enter the porn industry. A woman can't possibly possess ownership over her own desire -now that's a blatantly sexist attitude.
for the same reason that people are in porn- conflating sex with relationship and seeking control to make up for a lack of real intimacy.
I think you're confusing generalizations with stereotypes. Generalizations do hold merit as they speak "in general" and don't encompass "all". It appears to me that Dr. Drew was NOT generalizing.
I don't think that porn is a bad thing. there's nothing inherently degrading, objectifying, or abusive about being turned on by (other) people having sex.
doesn't mean that the people in porn, the people that watch porn and the porn itself can't be all of those bad things.
the two aren't mutually exclusive, it depends on the circumstance.
my point was that everyone experiences those things at some point, and so they permeate and effect everything that we do to a degree, but what that degree is is the variable in the equation. I think realizing that factor and addressing it is what leads to being able to mitigate it and deal with things (sex and relationships) in a healthy way.
I may be wrong, but I think that is kind of what Dr. Drew was getting at. Not addressing these bad things as even a Possibility is surely going to lead to bad consequences instead of starting at that point and working towards the things that we definitely don't want to accomplish and what we do want.
doesn't mean that the people in porn, the people that watch porn and the porn itself can't be all of those bad things.
the two aren't mutually exclusive, it depends on the circumstance.
my point was that everyone experiences those things at some point, and so they permeate and effect everything that we do to a degree, but what that degree is is the variable in the equation. I think realizing that factor and addressing it is what leads to being able to mitigate it and deal with things (sex and relationships) in a healthy way.
I may be wrong, but I think that is kind of what Dr. Drew was getting at. Not addressing these bad things as even a Possibility is surely going to lead to bad consequences instead of starting at that point and working towards the things that we definitely don't want to accomplish and what we do want.
Agreed 100%. I think that porn ...and society... today is full of all three of those elements that you mentioned, unfortunately. Max Hardcore is merely the most prominent example of a widespread and serious problem. That is, degradation (misogyny), objectification, and abuse (mental sadism/masochism; sociopathology) of females in a sexual context seem to be running rampant.
Yes, I'm singling out women here. However, I will acknowledge that males are sometimes the targets of degrading sexual treatment, etc. at the hands of females (or even other men). That is probably much less common, though.
I think the issue at hand here isn't that abused women are doing porn...its that women are being abused period. Associating porn with abuse is a "statistic" that does nothing, its futile. How about the statistic that one out of every four women have been sexually abused? Thats startling. And something that needs to be recognized more, instead of making porn seem like the horrible end result of abuse. Lets do something to combat abuse in women because its sickening what goes on.
And really...IMO, I think alot of pornstars or women in this industry have been abused at some point...but ALL women have had some run in with abuse or abusive men. Its just the world we live in. But picture this....say there was some magical way to get rid of the abusers...and there was no longer sexual abuse in our society...do you think the porn industry would dry up because women would be taking on other careers?
PROBABLY NOT. There's your answer. Women do it for other reasons than having a troubled past...and believe it or not, alot of women don't do it for the money either. I'm a camgirl, and no, I wasn't sexually abused as a child...I did however have an abusive boyfriend two years ago, who has been convicted and charged for his actions...but that had nothing to do with my decision to become a camgirl. I cam because I love chatting, I love teasing and being sexual and I love getting off in front of men. Its a turn on for me. I don't need the money, I already HAVE a successful career as a photographer. This is my fun job, the one where I can unwind and enjoy myself and the company of other men.
K I'll stop giving my two cents, because it appears I've given more than that haha.
And really...IMO, I think alot of pornstars or women in this industry have been abused at some point...but ALL women have had some run in with abuse or abusive men. Its just the world we live in. But picture this....say there was some magical way to get rid of the abusers...and there was no longer sexual abuse in our society...do you think the porn industry would dry up because women would be taking on other careers?
PROBABLY NOT. There's your answer. Women do it for other reasons than having a troubled past...and believe it or not, alot of women don't do it for the money either. I'm a camgirl, and no, I wasn't sexually abused as a child...I did however have an abusive boyfriend two years ago, who has been convicted and charged for his actions...but that had nothing to do with my decision to become a camgirl. I cam because I love chatting, I love teasing and being sexual and I love getting off in front of men. Its a turn on for me. I don't need the money, I already HAVE a successful career as a photographer. This is my fun job, the one where I can unwind and enjoy myself and the company of other men.
K I'll stop giving my two cents, because it appears I've given more than that haha.
