Policing without using guns

[tvstrip]

As was pointed out, UK police generally don't have guns. And doing some research, the vast majority of police forces around the world (armed or not) don't resort to firearms to keep the peace.

So how do you keep the peace without resorting to guns?

Here's a great one from Japan: they wrap you up like a burrito:

If you're resisting arrest, instead of tasering or cuffing you, they can wrap you up like a kid in a sleeping bag. Once you're inside, the police really don't have to apply any more force because you have the threat level of a caterpillar. If anything, the public humiliation is the worst part of it.

Here's another one:

Have you guys seen other examples of non-firearm related law enforcement?

 

[Mr. Daystar]

.In a culture that has no respect for ANYTHING, much less it's elders, it's laws, it's authority figures, you don't. It won't happen, ever. When you have people that make as much money in a day, breaking the law as they would in a week at a regular job, and those people have a complete lack of respect for human life, including their own, it will never happen. Even if the government could pull off the confiscation of EVERY private firearm, polite, civil society would still be under fire, from the criminal element, because even if you confiscate THEIR guns, and destroy them, some where down the line, a criminal is going to steal something, somewhere. More likely, corrupt officials, greedy for their slice will provide them. They do exist among our trusted leaders, and protectors, in this very land, and they are VERY abundant in mexico, and I'm sure Canada too. I suppose bean bag rounds, and Tasers were invented for that, but then someone dies due to unusual circumstances, and they become demonized, and criticized for their use, now it's square one again. Give every cop a dog, and let it go in, but if you kill a police dog, or hit a police dog, you get charged the same as you do for killing a human being. It seems like the anti law enforcement crowd is screaming out, just let us do our thing, and don't treat us like criminals until we actually draw down on you, and shoot first. Once we shoot at you, THEN you can defend yourself, because it's not fair to me, that you put your own life, ahead of mine. They want the benefit of the doubt, instead of earning that respect. I will agree, without a doubt, there has been a lot of stupidity, and criminal behavior by law enforcement officers lately, but there has been a huge leap in crime too, and if you think about it, when a basic description is what you have to go on, you cover your ass. Cops have families too. I've been pulled over quite a few times, and it's pretty simple, hazards on, engine off, window(s) down, interior light on, and for me, hands out the window. I have to, because of a ccw permit. I don't drive drunk, but I may have been a little bit dirty once or twice, but I have NEVER had an issue, all I did was act respectfully. Now I'm sure other people will say it's because I'm white, and maybe it is. But I've never given a cop the reason to treat me that way, because I've never acted a fool.

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

I think that El Diablo is right in many of his thoughts. We have all known someone, somewhere who thinks that only suckers work. We also can admit to the fact that often Assholes begat assholes. Obviously not always true but just like in our area a couple of days ago a clown got mad as his wife, Girlfriend? something and to teach her a lesson he grabbed her little dog and strangled it to death. And when she tried to stop him, he strangled her though not to death. And when the cops arrived he picked up the dog and started petting it and saying, look it's ok. The woman said nothing but the cops realized she had choke marks on her neck and injuries to her hands. This is the kind of folks we all deal with. I agree most folks world wide just want to live and be left alone but some just can't leave other alone. For so many reasons it would take the rest of the night to list even some of them. And the societal norms have changed and are changing and until it shakes out this kind of shit will continue for a long time. And lastly there are always those who can only learn one way. The Hard way.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

As was pointed out, UK police generally don't have guns. And doing some research, the vast majority of police forces around the world (armed or not) don't resort to firearms to keep the peace.

So how do you keep the peace without resorting to guns?

Here's a great one from Japan: they wrap you up like a burrito:

If you're resisting arrest, instead of tasering or cuffing you, they can wrap you up like a kid in a sleeping bag. Once you're inside, the police really don't have to apply any more force because you have the threat level of a caterpillar. If anything, the public humiliation is the worst part of it.

Here's another one:

Have you guys seen other examples of non-firearm related law enforcement?

Could have done that to George Floyd, but just like @bubb and @El Diablo Blanco have already pointed out, people have to be willing to try different methods and attitudes first - instead of just resorting to excuses why they believe teaching people the hard way it is reasonable when you represent the state, as chauvin tried to explain to the court during his trial.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

Desmond Cole on CBC explaining why police should be defunded and disarmed.

If the state allows lethal force, that means they will use it, so the solution is to take those powers away from the state - so they don't have excuses to use lethal force.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

.In a culture that has no respect for ANYTHING, much less it's elders, it's laws, it's authority figures, you don't. It won't happen, ever. When you have people that make as much money in a day, breaking the law as they would in a week at a regular job, and those people have a complete lack of respect for human life, including their own, it will never happen. Even if the government could pull off the confiscation of EVERY private firearm, polite, civil society would still be under fire, from the criminal element, because even if you confiscate THEIR guns, and destroy them, some where down the line, a criminal is going to steal something, somewhere. More likely, corrupt officials, greedy for their slice will provide them. They do exist among our trusted leaders, and protectors, in this very land, and they are VERY abundant in mexico, and I'm sure Canada too. I suppose bean bag rounds, and Tasers were invented for that, but then someone dies due to unusual circumstances, and they become demonized, and criticized for their use, now it's square one again. Give every cop a dog, and let it go in, but if you kill a police dog, or hit a police dog, you get charged the same as you do for killing a human being. It seems like the anti law enforcement crowd is screaming out, just let us do our thing, and don't treat us like criminals until we actually draw down on you, and shoot first. Once we shoot at you, THEN you can defend yourself, because it's not fair to me, that you put your own life, ahead of mine. They want the benefit of the doubt, instead of earning that respect. I will agree, without a doubt, there has been a lot of stupidity, and criminal behavior by law enforcement officers lately, but there has been a huge leap in crime too, and if you think about it, when a basic description is what you have to go on, you cover your ass. Cops have families too. I've been pulled over quite a few times, and it's pretty simple, hazards on, engine off, window(s) down, interior light on, and for me, hands out the window. I have to, because of a ccw permit. I don't drive drunk, but I may have been a little bit dirty once or twice, but I have NEVER had an issue, all I did was act respectfully. Now I'm sure other people will say it's because I'm white, and maybe it is. But I've never given a cop the reason to treat me that way, because I've never acted a fool.

You are indeed lucky to have never been mistreated by the state, but it's not because of your belief that you've never given then reason to mistreat you, as you must know by now - the protests against police brutality are not in cases where use of force was justified, the protests are in cases where force is not justified.

So, it could happen to you, and You Might not mind - but it's only luck protecting you from police brutality and nothing more, I think we should be clear on that.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

I think that El Diablo is right in many of his thoughts. We have all known someone, somewhere who thinks that only suckers work. We also can admit to the fact that often Assholes begat assholes. Obviously not always true but just like in our area a couple of days ago a clown got mad as his wife, Girlfriend? something and to teach her a lesson he grabbed her little dog and strangled it to death. And when she tried to stop him, he strangled her though not to death. And when the cops arrived he picked up the dog and started petting it and saying, look it's ok. The woman said nothing but the cops realized she had choke marks on her neck and injuries to her hands. This is the kind of folks we all deal with. I agree most folks world wide just want to live and be left alone but some just can't leave other alone. For so many reasons it would take the rest of the night to list even some of them. And the societal norms have changed and are changing and until it shakes out this kind of shit will continue for a long time. And lastly there are always those who can only learn one way. The Hard way.

What does someones view that only suckers work have to do with not allowing the state to bully and brutalize people?

What do you mean by societal norms changing until it shakes shit out?

Your story about the clown, did the police have to shoot him or did he go downtown peacefully? Your story with the clown is actually similar to how bad cops act towards those their supposed to serve and protect, and it takes good cops to notice what's going on to protect others - in fact news reports endless stories of domestic violence at the homes of cops.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

.In a culture that has no respect for ANYTHING, much less it's elders, it's laws, it's authority figures, you don't. It won't happen, ever. When you have people that make as much money in a day, breaking the law as they would in a week at a regular job, and those people have a complete lack of respect for human life, including their own, it will never happen. Even if the government could pull off the confiscation of EVERY private firearm, polite, civil society would still be under fire, from the criminal element, because even if you confiscate THEIR guns, and destroy them, some where down the line, a criminal is going to steal something, somewhere. More likely, corrupt officials, greedy for their slice will provide them. They do exist among our trusted leaders, and protectors, in this very land, and they are VERY abundant in mexico, and I'm sure Canada too. I suppose bean bag rounds, and Tasers were invented for that, but then someone dies due to unusual circumstances, and they become demonized, and criticized for their use, now it's square one again. Give every cop a dog, and let it go in, but if you kill a police dog, or hit a police dog, you get charged the same as you do for killing a human being. It seems like the anti law enforcement crowd is screaming out, just let us do our thing, and don't treat us like criminals until we actually draw down on you, and shoot first. Once we shoot at you, THEN you can defend yourself, because it's not fair to me, that you put your own life, ahead of mine. They want the benefit of the doubt, instead of earning that respect. I will agree, without a doubt, there has been a lot of stupidity, and criminal behavior by law enforcement officers lately, but there has been a huge leap in crime too, and if you think about it, when a basic description is what you have to go on, you cover your ass. Cops have families too. I've been pulled over quite a few times, and it's pretty simple, hazards on, engine off, window(s) down, interior light on, and for me, hands out the window. I have to, because of a ccw permit. I don't drive drunk, but I may have been a little bit dirty once or twice, but I have NEVER had an issue, all I did was act respectfully. Now I'm sure other people will say it's because I'm white, and maybe it is. But I've never given a cop the reason to treat me that way, because I've never acted a fool.

What would your solution be to stop police brutality in the future?

Also want to point out that it is in fact the law and duty that police cannot shoot first, they do have to wait until fired upon or drawn upon as you put out before firing - just like in the army their are standing orders regarding the rules of engagement, not being allowed to fire first, sometimes they are ordered not to return enemy fire, so following rules and standing orders to the letter is not uncommon in government nor should it be for police.

So, it's not unfair or cruel to expect police to follow the same rules they've already sworn they would follow, because police can always quit and find a less stressful job whenever they feel they can't handle it anymore - that way someone who will do a better can take their place.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

As was pointed out, UK police generally don't have guns. And doing some research, the vast majority of police forces around the world (armed or not) don't resort to firearms to keep the peace.

So how do you keep the peace without resorting to guns?

Here's a great one from Japan: they wrap you up like a burrito:

If you're resisting arrest, instead of tasering or cuffing you, they can wrap you up like a kid in a sleeping bag. Once you're inside, the police really don't have to apply any more force because you have the threat level of a caterpillar. If anything, the public humiliation is the worst part of it.

Here's another one:

Have you guys seen other examples of non-firearm related law enforcement?

Another thing I want to point out is notice that none of the police in Japan in this video care of they are being recorded or watched, the environment we live in is created by those who police us - the reason the police don't care if people watch them or video them in Japan is because of a different police culture, compared to the toxic militaristic police culture elsewhere.

In the videos above no cop telling people to move along or mind their own business or pretend that police work is SOOO important that everyone is expected to cower away when ordered to.

Senior citizens and other citizens are even talking to police while they are in the middle of an arrest, without having their head bitten off or threatened by police - what a concept.

 

[gmase]

I've been pulled over quite a few times, and it's pretty simple, hazards on, engine off, window(s) down, interior light on, and for me, hands out the window.

I echo your comment. Never had an incident with a cop other than speeding.

‘Hands out the window’ is a new one for me.

 

[gmase]

As was pointed out, UK police generally don't have guns. And doing some research, the vast majority of police forces around the world (armed or not) don't resort to firearms to keep the peace.

So how do you keep the peace without resorting to guns?

I would suggest limiting access to firearms by citizens, but that idea never goes over well. As long as police need to approach people who may be armed, they need to be armed as well.

Have you guys seen other examples of non-firearm related law enforcement?

Some of the local departments are using a lasso-type device called BolaWrap.
https://kdvr.com/news/problem-solve...starting-to-use-a-lasso-to-arrest-people/amp/

 

[Mr. Daystar]

I echo your comment. Never had an incident with a cop other than speeding.

‘Hands out the window’ is a new one for me.

They suggest it in the ccw class. Just rest your wrist s on the door, so they can see you aren't reaching for something.

 

[gmase]

They suggest it in the ccw class. Just rest your wrist s on the door, so they can see you aren't reaching for something.

Gotcha. I thought they pulled you over for hands out the window.

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

"What does someones view that only suckers work have to do with not allowing the state to bully and brutalize people?" Nothing at all. Just a statement on how I see the way some people are.

"What do you mean by societal norms changing until it shakes shit out?" Society is constantly changing and like a pendulum swings wildly one way and then wildly the other way until at some point it settle in the middle. Until it starts again.


"Your story about the clown, did the police have to shoot him or did he go downtown peacefully? Your story with the clown is actually similar to how bad cops act towards those their supposed to serve and protect, and it takes good cops to notice what's going on to protect others - in fact news reports endless stories of domestic violence at the homes of cops." He was arrested and yes, sometimes they do. Doesn't make it right.

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

Many moons ago when I was young I was driving my Mother-in-Laws van through a small town not far from here. I was waiting at a red light when a police car turned left in front of me. As he turned he stared at me with a strange look. Uh oh I thought. Sure enough I didn't get a mile and here he came light, siren and all behind me. I stopped and waited and as he approached me I turned in the seat to speak to him. He reached for his gun. I immediately put both my hands on the window ledge and said as meekly as a 350 lb 6.0 foot tall guy could say" lets not get excited here". He did not pull his gun but told me not to move so I did not. After a minute he relaxed and said that the Police were looking for a man matching my description who had just beat up several people. You are not him he said. I agreed. Thanked me for complying and wished me a good day. 40 years ago. I was a young white guy then in a then Redneck town. That is my only experience with cops since my last traffic stop about two years after that. Nothing since. I have a theory that often at least for older White guys that the Police in smaller towns like mine often don't just mess with you because they don't know who you know. You might be the Mayors nephew or have friends in the Fire Dept. So unless they have a real good reason to stop you they leave you alone. Just my opinion but almost no one I know who is old like me is much bothered by the Police around here unless they really screw up.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

It was also because you blended in. You were part of the usual scenery. Many black people have complained they've been pulled over just because they are black....well yeah, if you are black, in an area that is typically white, you stick out. Which is why LOT'S and LOT'S of white people get pulled over in black neighborhoods. Why is a middle aged white guy cruising up and down an area in a black neighborhood? It might not be very politically correct, but it's the way it is. Certain things are in fact obviously wrong, but sometimes they work. It is the police departments job to prevent crime, preserve the public good. If they pull over some guy in an area you normally wouldn't expect the individual to be in, and it turns out they get a bunch of heroin of the street, or some deranged rapist, I can live with it. I haven't seen many video's of violent arrests, or the cop and robbers slugging it out, that didn't start with whomever the cop pulled over. resisting, or running, or both. I'm certainly not saying that's a justification for killing a person, but it always seems to me, the person being pulled over starts arguing, and it escalates.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

"What does someones view that only suckers work have to do with not allowing the state to bully and brutalize people?" Nothing at all. Just a statement on how I see the way some people are.

"What do you mean by societal norms changing until it shakes shit out?" Society is constantly changing and like a pendulum swings wildly one way and then wildly the other way until at some point it settle in the middle. Until it starts again.


"Your story about the clown, did the police have to shoot him or did he go downtown peacefully? Your story with the clown is actually similar to how bad cops act towards those their supposed to serve and protect, and it takes good cops to notice what's going on to protect others - in fact news reports endless stories of domestic violence at the homes of cops." He was arrested and yes, sometimes they do. Doesn't make it right.

My issue is that you seem to be content here to not change much in the way of helping reduce police brutality, not that you are to blame or have any power to make the changes necessary - I take issue with your complacency.

Complacency like when you say - that things happen and it doesn't make it right, but won't consider any changes that might prevent or reduce policy violence.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

Many moons ago when I was young I was driving my Mother-in-Laws van through a small town not far from here. I was waiting at a red light when a police car turned left in front of me. As he turned he stared at me with a strange look. Uh oh I thought. Sure enough I didn't get a mile and here he came light, siren and all behind me. I stopped and waited and as he approached me I turned in the seat to speak to him. He reached for his gun. I immediately put both my hands on the window ledge and said as meekly as a 350 lb 6.0 foot tall guy could say" lets not get excited here". He did not pull his gun but told me not to move so I did not. After a minute he relaxed and said that the Police were looking for a man matching my description who had just beat up several people. You are not him he said. I agreed. Thanked me for complying and wished me a good day. 40 years ago. I was a young white guy then in a then Redneck town. That is my only experience with cops since my last traffic stop about two years after that. Nothing since. I have a theory that often at least for older White guys that the Police in smaller towns like mine often don't just mess with you because they don't know who you know. You might be the Mayors nephew or have friends in the Fire Dept. So unless they have a real good reason to stop you they leave you alone. Just my opinion but almost no one I know who is old like me is much bothered by the Police around here unless they really screw up.

You're not the only one with that opinion, because I guess that no one you care about including yourself has had any police brutality happen to them.

Because many like you are not bothered much by police, you all are complacent towards changes to policing, whereas people that want changes are more sympathetic.

Similar to rape victims not getting much sympathy until this #METOO movement caused alot of the complacency to change, or until the complacent people themselves get raped or someone they care enough about is a victim.

I'm saying complacency towards police misconduct is similar to complacency towards other government wrongdoings such as police violence and the Holocaust and apartheid etc.

 

[VillellaMcMeans]

It was also because you blended in. You were part of the usual scenery. Many black people have complained they've been pulled over just because they are black....well yeah, if you are black, in an area that is typically white, you stick out. Which is why LOT'S and LOT'S of white people get pulled over in black neighborhoods. Why is a middle aged white guy cruising up and down an area in a black neighborhood? It might not be very politically correct, but it's the way it is. Certain things are in fact obviously wrong, but sometimes they work. It is the police departments job to prevent crime, preserve the public good. If they pull over some guy in an area you normally wouldn't expect the individual to be in, and it turns out they get a bunch of heroin of the street, or some deranged rapist, I can live with it. I haven't seen many video's of violent arrests, or the cop and robbers slugging it out, that didn't start with whomever the cop pulled over. resisting, or running, or both. I'm certainly not saying that's a justification for killing a person, but it always seems to me, the person being pulled over starts arguing, and it escalates.

Is what you're explaining, the past about certain obviously wrong things sometimes work - like fighting fire with fire, or the ends justifying the means?

 

[gmase]

My issue is that you seem to be content here to not change in the way of helping reduce police brutality, not that you are to blame or have any power to make the changes necessary - I take issue with your complacency.

Complacency like when you say - that things happen and it doesn't make it right, but won't consider any changes that might prevent or reduce policy violence.

Tell me, as suburbanites what can we do? I truly believe @bubb and I would support a change in how urban areas police neighborhoods. Please enlighten me without the venom. I may actually learn something.

I would support eliminating qualified immunity, additional training for officers, more interventions by public health officers, less firearms on the street, less militaristic showings by police, etc.

Start there and see what happens.

Keep in mind, residents want safety and a nice place to live. We want safety for all who intervene including law enforcement. You don’t show up for a gun fight with book learning. (Says the guy without any guns.)