Police shoot and kill kid for carrying a replica gun

[Johan]

Let's take this same 12yo kid, with the same gun, with the same complaints about waving it around in the park, responds to police requests to raise hands by reaching into his belt and drop him in France. Are your police so trained as to assess the situation any differently? Would Japanese handle the situation differently because citizens don't have handguns?

Absolutely. Because here, guns are not as common as they are in the US so police officers would most probably think the gun is fake.
They may come armed and ready to use deadly force, as BioDefenseGrad said, but they would not shoot so fast at a kid who's not even pointing the gun ot them, who's not even holding the gun in his hand

But once again and as I said a few post before in this topic, this is all about the absence of gun laws in America

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Absolutely. Because here, guns are not as common as they are in the US so police officers would most probably think the gun is fake.
They may come armed and ready to use deadly force, as BioDefenseGrad said, but they would not shoot so fast at a kid who's not even pointing the gun ot them, who's not even holding the gun in his hand

But once again and as I said a few post before in this topic, this is all about the absence of gun laws in America

No, it's not about an absence of gun laws. Think!!! It was a TOY GUN...they wouldn't be illegal, THEY'RE TOYS!! This is about a generation of people that have no respect for authority, and feel a need to act as they wish, when the wish. When I was a kid, all toy guns looked amazingly teal, and we didn't have near as much of this...because our parents taught us to respect our elders, and law enforcement officers. When I was about 7 or 8, I pointed a cap gun at a cop driving past my house, he didn't see it, but my Aunt did, and she railed me until my ear drum was raw, yelling about how he might mistake it for a real one. I never did it again. When a cop tells you to stop, and orders you to show him your hands, you do it, and you do it now. You DO NOT, under any circumstance lift your shirt, and reach for what clearly appears to be a gun, and as I said, I saw the gun, it looked very real. Many times, a crime is committed, and an innocent person fits the description...that officers is required to check out all possibilities, and it's his responsibility to not only be concerned with innocent bystanders, but his own safety as well, and that may require him to pat you down, check I.D., and in some cases, cuff you. If you aren't the person they're looking for, you'll be fine, but if you do something completely stupid, like reach for a gun, then bad things happen, and if they act inappropriately....that's what courts, lawyers, and complaints to the police department are for. You continually seem to be unable to grasp the simple concept that, laws only affect the law abiding....criminals will still have guns, and even if you required every gun owner to turn in their guns, criminals wouldn't...BECAUSE THY ARE???? That's right, criminals. I doubt the law abiding gun owners would tolerate being required to turn in weapons. So that leaves door to door confiscation. How do you think it would go over, having police or government officials knocking on, or kicking in doors to take guns. As far as other countries responding differently, I would bet you are VERY wrong...they would do exactly what this officer did, because they know, it only takes a split second of hesitation, to end up dead.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Here's a story from Yahoo, and the same video.

http://news.yahoo.com/cleveland-release-video-boy-shot-officer-110012912.html

 

[Johan]

No, it's not about an absence of gun laws. Think!!! It was a TOY GUN...they wouldn't be illegal, THEY'RE TOYS!!

Yes, it is about the absence of gun laws. You think and see the bigger picture.

I live in a country in which there is a quite tough legislation about gun, in whish it's very rare to see someone carrying a gun. In such a country, no peole would have called the cops for a kid pointing a gun to people in a park, everyone would have thought that kid was holding a fake gun, no people would have thought the gun was a real one.
But in your country, when people see a kid with a gun, they immediately assume the gun is real. 'cause guns are everywhere : At the supermarket, on TV adds, etc.

This is what I mean when I say that what happened in Cleveland is all bout the absence of gun laws. It is all about the gun culture you people have and how that gun culture is plaguing your country with cops shooting unarmed kids, mentally ill teenager shooting kids in a school, psychopath opening fire in a movie theater, etc...

 

[Mayhem]

What happens when someone waves a toy gun in a park and it turns out to be real?

Johan, you live in a country where for centuries the leading cause of death, incarceration, torture, civil rights abuse and misery was your own government. You live in a country where your government used its citizenry as footstools. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Press, Fredom of Everything else are all concepts you imported from us. You wouldn't have these principles to this day if it wasn't for us. And we fought for these rights. People gave their lives for them. We didn't attain them by playing nice and asking for them.

BTW, your country is the 4th largest arms exporter in the world.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

We got guns from France to help fight the revolutionary war, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that's why your country has such strict gun laws...they don't want you to get any big ideas.

 

[Johan]

We got guns from France to help fight the revolutionary war, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that's why your country has such strict gun laws...they don't want you to get any big ideas.

Don't got that path with me, we're a very rebelious people. Our leaders may have often acted as cowards but our people are rebels :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution_of_1848
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1968_events_in_France

Today, when the people doesn't agree with what the government is trying to do to them, we don't need guns : We stop to work, we go to the streets, we protest 'til the government gives up. Beause our government does care about the people, they fear the people. They know that if the people's not happy with them, they won't be re-elected
Your government doesn't fear the people, they don't fear the people's guns : they only fear their donors.

Oh, and we may have brought you a few guns to resist the English Royal Army but that wouldn't have been enough. We also brought you some properly trained soldiers, officers and even a real general. Otherwise you would have been massacred, even with our guns.

 

[BlkHawk]

Does anyone else have a problem with the tactics the police used in this video? There is no one around the boy, thus he is not a present danger to anyone at that moment. The police speed in, stop right next to him, and shoot him within 1 - 2 seconds of stopping. In other reports the officer is quoted as telling the boy to show his hands three times before firing.

It doesn't look like the [NOBABE]kid[/NOBABE] was disrespectful, but shocked to have a cop car stop directly in front of him with guns pointed at him. Be honest, and think about this before responding. That would shock/stun most people let alone a kid, do you think you could get over your surprise of the speeding cop car stopping in front of you, guns pointed at you, register what the officer is yelling, and follow his commands within 1 second before being shot? If you truly believe you could, ask yourself, could a 12 year old?

If you answered yes to the above question you are either a well trained professional, or never been in a sudden dangerous situation, and deceiving yourself. You may be able to move/jump by instinct, but the average person cannot be surprised/scared, and logically process verbal commands that fast.

They could see where the [NOBABE]kid[/NOBABE] was, because they were able to pull up directly in front of him, so they could see there was no one else around him in immediate danger. Why didn't they stop 30 feet away placing the car between them and him, then issue the order to show his hands? That way they could have at least given him 5 - 10 seconds to register what was going on.

The [NOBABE]kid[/NOBABE] is 12, all kids make stupid decisions, his was playing in the park with a toy gun. The cops are trained adults to protect and serve, at the very least their tactics were severely flawed.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

They didn't know it was a toy...it did look VERY real. He had been waving it around, or pointing it prior to there arrival...that's why they were called. As far as a danger to others...he may have been a danger to the police, if the gun had been real. Also, i want to point out that the city of Cleveland has "no concealed carry" signs clearly posted in all areas of all of their parks. The mayor is extremely anti gun, and has had law suites filed against him for refusing to follow State law regarding the right to carry. He has lost most, if not all of them. But as far as this goes, there is no sound, which would help, but he was told to put his hands in plain site, and reached towards what they had every reason to believe was a real gun. It's sad, but this kid made the wrong choice.

 

[BlkHawk]

They didn't know it was a toy...it did look VERY real. He had been waving it around, or pointing it prior to there arrival...that's why they were called. As far as a danger to others...he may have been a danger to the police, if the gun had been real. Also, i want to point out that the city of Cleveland has "no concealed carry" signs clearly posted in all areas of all of their parks. The mayor is extremely anti gun, and has had law suites filed against him for refusing to follow State law regarding the right to carry. He has lost most, if not all of them. But as far as this goes, there is no sound, which would help, but he was told to put his hands in plain site, and reached towards what they had every reason to believe was a real gun. It's sad, but this kid made the wrong choice.

That's just it I don't think he made an actual choice at that point, I don't think he had time to process what was happening. He probably instinctively tried to show them it was a toy by lifting his shirt, no coherent thought involved. Hopefully this video can be used for training purposes that when there is no immediate danger, and it involves a child, approach safely, and confront from a distance.

How many average people do you know who can hit a man sized target at 30', 50' or 100' with a handgun? Especially if the police were using the car as cover. I've known people who can't hit shit at 100' with a rifle.

 

[sean miguel]

How many average people do you know who can hit a man sized target at 30', 50' or 100' with a handgun? Especially if the police were using the car as cover. I've known people who can't hit shit at 100' with a rifle.

Would you be willing to bet your life on that if you were an officer in the same situation?

This story is just heartbreaking especially after seeing the video. I used to play with airsoft guns when I was that age and tried to imagine what my reaction would be if police rolled up on me like that with guns drawn. First off, I'd be scared shitless. Unless he wanted to commit suicide by cop, he obviously wasn't going to threaten the officers with the gun. Like you said, he was most likely pulling the gun out to show that it was fake or to drop it. But think of it from the officer's POV. They know the [nobabe]kid[/nobabe] is armed with a gun and he reaches for it from his waistband. You have just a split second to react in that situation.

As far as the police pulling up that close, I don't know if that was bad tactics or what. It would seem like it but I'm not a police officer. I remember the video of that North Hollywood shootout where the police pull up at basically point blank range to those bank robbers armed with AK-47s and start shooting.

 

[BlkHawk]

Would you be willing to bet your life on that if you were an officer in the same situation?

This story is just heartbreaking especially after seeing the video. I used to play with airsoft guns when I was that age and tried to imagine what my reaction would be if police rolled up on me like that with guns drawn. First off, I'd be scared shitless. Unless he wanted to commit suicide by cop, he obviously wasn't going to threaten the officers with the gun. Like you said, he was most likely pulling the gun out to show that it was fake or to drop it. But think of it from the officer's POV. They know the [nobabe]kid[/nobabe] is armed with a gun and he reaches for it from his waistband. You have just a split second to react in that situation.

As far as the police pulling up that close, I don't know if that was bad tactics or what. It would seem like it but I'm not a police officer. I remember the video of that North Hollywood shootout where the police pull up at basically point blank range to those bank robbers armed with AK-47s and start shooting.

Truthfully, I have no idea. This is a tragedy for the child, his family, and the officers involved. As I said before I hope police departments can learn from this, that when children are involved, and there is no immediate threat, a safer approach for both parties can be devised. I'm not advocating punishment for anyone involved as the officers, and parents are suffering more now than anything we can imagine. I just hope this leads to a positive change, that decreases the chance of something like this occurring again.

 

[Johan]

Real gun, fake gun, no gun at all, it doesn't really matter : when dealing with black people police shoot first, then they think.

Florida man shot at by police in front of daughter

Jacksonville, FL — A Jacksonville man was shot at by police officers while he was next to his young daughter inside his car.

Brian Dennison says he was just outside his vehicle when an officer fired at him. He told News4JAX he couldn’t help but think that he or his daughter had been hit.

Investigators said the officer believed Dennison had a small handgun but he was unarmed.

Dennison was ultimately arrested and taken to the Duval County Jail for knowingly driving with a suspended license.

“Last night was very scary,” Dennison told News4JAX. “I had my daughter in the car with me, coming home from the basketball court, and she was having an asthma attack at the time. I was trying to rush her back to the house.”

The father said he was rushing home when a police officer tried to pull him over. Dennison says he got out of his car with his hands up, attempting to explain to the officer and alert him to the emergency.

Dennison said the officer then continued to walk toward him while he was holding his daughter and explaining when the officer took a shot at him.

Authorities say that when Dennison exited the car, the officer believed he had a small handgun and said that he was not holding his daughter.

The incident is currently under investigation.

http://thegrio.com/2014/11/26/man-shot-police-daughter/

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Real gun, fake gun, no gun at all, it doesn't really matter : when dealing with black people police shoot first, then they think.

With Johan, and guns...he posts before he thinks.

You truly are sad, and pathetic. How fucking desperate are you? You do realize that just as many, if not many more black men, shoot black men, then whites shoot blacks. You realize there are a lot of black policemen? This is the type of statement that truley shows the type of person you are.

 

[bahodeme]

Part of this happening is because of the "get tough on crime laws". Certain areas there is a mandatory prison time if a firearm is used in a crime. Since this is not a firearm, no additional jail time. This law was set up in areas where drugs where prevalent. So I you were caught with possession, you may serve 6 months to 1 year. If you had a firearm, it may add 5 years to your time. If you use a toy gun in a robbery, since it is not a firearm, you will not receive the additional 5 years. Growing up I had toy guns that REALLY looked like the real ones. The used paper caps for the sound. The last thing we thought about was using it to rob someone.

 

[Johan]

With Johan, and guns...he posts before he thinks.

You truly are sad, and pathetic. How fucking desperate are you? You do realize that just as many, if not many more black men, shoot black men, then whites shoot blacks. You realize there are a lot of black policemen? This is the type of statement that truley shows the type of person you are.

Actually, according to FBI statistics, whites are mostly killed by whites.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6

Because people don't go miles away to crimes, they do so in their neighborhood, they kill people from their community, people they know, not random people they never saw before.

 

[bobjustbob]

Absolutely. Because here, guns are not as common as they are in the US so police officers would most probably think the gun is fake.
They may come armed and ready to use deadly force, as BioDefenseGrad said, but they would not shoot so fast at a kid who's not even pointing the gun ot them, who's not even holding the gun in his hand

But once again and as I said a few post before in this topic, this is all about the absence of gun laws in America

Use some critical thinking before running off on your passionate bias. You are in no position to have any measure of certainty much less answer as an absolute. You have never been a peace officer anywhere so you have no knowledge of the training of them in any shape or fashion. You have never been involved in such a situation either. You aren't ever in a position to speculate about such matters. That video shows nothing. You read the same early accounts of a situation as the rest of us.

Let's set the record straight. In France, anyone under the age of 18 is considered irresponsible for most all criminal acts. In USA, age 13 can be held responsible for criminal acts. Teen thugs in USA get included in the numbers Teen thugs in France go through "education" and not reported in the crime statistics. Also note that a higher percentage of French citizens are afraid of crime than USA. Why? Because we deal with it much stricter than France before they turn 18.

 

[Supafly]

You really are fucked up in the head. Did you see the gun? They showed it on CNN. I saw it, and it looked VERY MUCH like a 1911 model .45ACP to me. I've forgotten more about guns then you will ever know, and it looked real enough to me, that I would be safe, as opposed to sorry. I suppose the cop should have taken a bullet first, just to be sure? The cops tell you to freeze, and keep your hands in plain site...YOU FUCKING DO JUST THAT! The orange safety tip was removed...they don't just fall off, it had to be taken off. This kid played a losing game, and he lost. Even the family attorney said this is not about race, but you just had to bring it up. Ever stop and think, maybe a white kid wouldn't have done this. And just so you don't sound so stupid in the future, it's not a real gun, so you only have to be 18, as opposed to 21 to buy it....and it's not "automatic" It's semi automatic. Auto is a word only used to make things sound far more menacing then they really are.

Yeah, well in this country, 12 year old kids belong to gangs, and deal drugs, and commit crimes.

DEAL WITH IT!!!

The fact is, you are clueless, and a natural born victim...you possess no survival skills, and even less of an ability to understand what it takes to protect your loved ones. You just wait patiently on 911....that'll stop that lead from flyin' .

I wonder why THESE men and women are not shot already, they even have machineguns?

or this man? Carrying a weapon in a police station?

 

[Legzman]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30172433

1) Why am I not surprised that it's a black kid that's been shot ? Why do I have the feeling that this wouldn't have happened to a white kid ?
2) This is what happen when automatics are as easy to buy as a loaf of bread : people and even police officers don't even think twice when they see a kid with something that looks like a gun, it must be a real gun, it can't be a fake one. Particulary if the kid is black...

These 2 responses are exactly what is wrong with this country. Everyone sees shit in black and white. Frankly I'm sick of it!

 

[tvstrip]

Google: "Nicholas King" and "battle creek"
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2013/11/14-year-old_shot_by_battle_cre.html
A year ago, almost to the day, a 14 yr old, WHITE teen waving a toy gun is confronted by police and gets shot.


Just want to add some points since Japanese Police were brought up.

-Airsofts are HUGE in Japan. Tokyo Marui is one of the largest manufacturers in the world, and I can personally attest their models are REALISTIC (aside from their weight, obviously).
-Buying an airsoft is actually easier than buying many video games in Japan; they sell them in toy departments and I've seen elementary kids buy them.
-Notably, there are NO regulations about the bright cap on the end. Transfomers fans might remember the Masterpiece Megatron fiasco.

So, despite the prevalence of airsofts and other realistic model guns, why have there been no incidents like this in Japan? (or many other countries?)
Yes, the fact like most countries that restrict handguns, there is probably some doubt in the officers minds about whether a gun is real when they come across one, which naturally makes them less quick on the trigger.

But I would say the biggest difference is you simply don't have kids threatening others with them, or "playing" (for lack of a better word) with these toys in this manner. Any other country I've lived in, including Australia, Canada, etc, in recent memory I've never seen or heard of kids threatening others with guns, and more importantly, kids openly defying the police like this kid did. Not saying that kids don't threaten (and use) violence, but guns tend to be off limits.

It could be a parental thing, maybe a societal "gun culture" thing, but to blame it solely on race is just wrong.