Outlawing guns in the US ...

Should the US Federal Constitution's Second Amendment be overturned?

  • Yes, I want to bypass Constitutional process and directly overturn with simple majority

    Votes: 29 10.2%
  • Yes, I want it overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 30 10.6%
  • Indifferent, but it should only be overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 8 2.8%
  • No, but I'd accept it if overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 21 7.4%
  • No, and I don't think any Amendments of the [i]Bill of Rights[/i] should ever be repealed

    Votes: 186 65.5%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 10 3.5%

  • Total voters
    284

Facetious

Moderated
Georges - Poll result digits speak voluminously ! :bowdown:




I like how Fox loses his temper and goes off on a rant, but when he's sprung by other posters, it turns out he was "misunderstood" :rofl:

Good Aye ! err Good Eye there ! :D
I have noticed that after he returned from his tour he was really relaxed, much more agreeable . . generally, just easy going and mild mannered. In fact he'd suggested something along the line of - guns aren't the big problem . . there's more important political issues to talk about . . I almost fell out of my chair !

Just like anybody else, we get kind of antsy with a normal schedule and it sure is refreshing to break out of the normal routine :yesyes:
 
I never thought guns were a big issue. They were just the thread at hand, so I gave my views. But I've come to realize it's all a huge smokescreen for the real issues, and is completely irrelavant politically. So that's why I really am keen to focus my energies on things that matter. I'm not relaxed or agreeable - just very focused. And I'm not misunderstood - just frequently misquoted and demonized, like anyone that some people don't agree with. My schedule's not normal at all! :) It's easy to lose your temper when majorities say things like "nothing should ever change, ever, it's sacred and perfect" in such a flawed system, it's surreal - but there really, really are more important issues to talk about.

Protecting my daughter is a big issue, bro. It means a lot to me. :)
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
I never thought guns were a big issue. They were just the thread at hand, so I gave my views. But I've come to realize it's all a huge smokescreen for the real issues, and is completely irrelavant politically. So that's why I really am keen to focus my energies on things that matter. I'm not relaxed or agreeable - just very focused. And I'm not misunderstood - just frequently misquoted and demonized, like anyone that some people don't agree with. My schedule's not normal at all! It's easy to lose your temper when majorities say things like "nothing should ever change, ever, it's sacred and perfect" in such a flawed system, it's surreal - but there really, really are more important issues to talk about.

Then what you should do is, go ahead and work on all of those other problems, recruit the people you need to get it done, and not worry about all of us gun owners...we have our end covered. As a result of that, you will be able to accomplish all of your goals without fear of oppression, or retribution, because thanks to all of the armed masses, the Government will be KEPT IN CHECK...just like the 2nd Amendment was meant to do. Go on, trot along now...we got your back...we have the guns!


 
Discarding prior votes, bypassing them ...

I am starting to have seriously enough of people who are immigrants being so ungrateful, so scornful, so direspectful and so blunt towards their welcoming countries.
It's allowed in the US to an extreme. It always has to be.

My problem is when people keep talking about "change" but want to bypass all the processes everyone have agreed on about "change."
It's not that hard to start the Constitutional Amendment process, and it's been done before.

The problem is that you have to convince a good 2/3rds of the American public to really get it at least rolling.
And what bothers me is how just because someone can't get 2/3rds to agree, they want to bypass that process.

Heck, they can't even get 50%, or blame the wording or other political games.
As such, the attitude is, "oh, well the votes of these people, as well as earlier super-majority votes, don't matter, only ours counts today, and only these select portion of people."

I'm still scratching my head on the "real minorities" comment awhile back, "dictating" who "real minorities" are.

IAmerican have perhaps the biggest purchasing power on the planet
Well, that's actually starting to change.
Our time has passed as the world economic leader, and it's sad how it's happened.

China is the new super-economic power and soon-to-be superpower.
And trust me, they don't give a damn what people think, they just do what they want. ;)

Iand also an attractive power due to their culture and their country.
The United States of America has never been well understood by most nations and their peoples.
I don't sit here and lecture other nationalists about what's wrong with their countries.

But yet everyone wants to do the same of the US, and solely look at what's allegedly wrong with the US.
The US was founded to "be different," and I'll die before I'll see our processes torn down by people who don't want to respect those who came before them.

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge what has been established by the founding fathers of the USA tells a lot about you.
It's not even that, they can disagree and discard.
It's the fact that people don't bother to actually read them, which is why they don't respect them.

If Fox thinks his views are original, he's hardly alone.
He would find great comfort in many aspects of the Federalist Papers, among others.

He would also find comfort in the discussions on the "evils" of capitalism that the same founders had.
After all, the British East India Company was part of the "root cause" of Americans troubles in the second half of the 18th century.

We've always had this debate so it's nothing new.
At the same time, the founders realized that farmers weren't about to fight for their land and then give it up in some sort of social combine.

After all, although capitalism can be evil, the "social contract" is not guaranteed with any form of government.
And farmers showed how capitalism drives initiative and earning your keep.

It was an interesting debate that raged on both before and after the Constitution was passed.
It's a debate that continued on into the federal banks that were build, and destroyed, at times by various administrations.

But Fox doesn't know this because he has not bothered to read that 250+ year debate.

ISomeone who has been given a citizenship in another country, should stick by the rules and not behaving like an obnoxious pathetic hippie communist.
It's not even that, he's free to say what he wants.
But it does reflect rather poorly on his character that he does not even bother to research why he has his freedoms in this country.

Even if he disagrees in the end, you cannot get many people to listen unless you actually speak the same civics they do.
Unless, of course, you just go the "popularist" route, which has worked for many other countries at times.

Ironic that W. is often compared to Hitler, when W.'s approval ratings were nothing like Hitler's.
Says something about Americans in general, that the President is often disliked, quite openly, by a significant chunk -- if not a majority -- of Americans.

IOh we already know that you prefer Cuba and Iran, then if you are so happy why don't you go live there?????
Well Iran is partially our fault, and Iraq as well (although other countries had a strong hand in Iraq too, especially after '91).
But blaming the US for everything that goes wrong only goes so far, and at some point, you've gotta build a nation on more than rhetoric.

II will also make a note that since Chirac forbid and banned in 1995 the defense and concealed weapon permit in France, the number of houses being robbed rose up significantly, same comment for aggressed older people.
People think banning guns will reduce violence in the US.
By the US' very nature, it will not, we are a violent nation in general.
We always have been, we always will be.

We have more of a mix of creeds, cultures, religions and views than any other nation on earth.
The overwhelming majority of the time we find ways of dealing with our differences using our established processes.

But sometimes people just take matters into their own hands.

IAmericans are far to be that anti democracy if they have accepted and welcomed you as one of their citizens.
If America wasn't a democracy, you would never have received the American citizenship.
And yet, even if he would disagree in the end, he sees no reason to understand civics.
He promotes a popularist platform, and one that has 0 technical details in implementation.

Wanting a democracy is easy.

The hard part is implementing it so the majority doesn't override the minority viewpoints on a regular basis, let alone shift every few seconds.
It doesn't take long for a simple majority to vote away their own individual rights, and never see them again.

That is what the US Constitution was designed to prevent.
The founders knew things would go wrong, people would be harmed, but it was designed with a balance to make them temporary when they happened.

That's why many of us still call the US the 400+ year old "experiment."
We don't know if it's the right thing, but we do see two things.

We have the greatest, most broad base of citizens.
And we have set of balances and processes that strive to balance all the voices, both past and present.

As an unrelated, side bonus, our own military has always respected the will of our civilian leaders.
That's why the US is one of the few nations in this world that has never, ever -- not once in its entire history -- had it's a military call the shots on anything.
 
As an outsider I find some things quite difficult to comprehend about American thinking.The first is the apparent fear , verging on paranoia , of government.Sure, bad government is to be feared mightily (by this I mean bad, not just incompetent like in the UK at present) but good government can bring immense benefits to the people.Second is the idea that an armed population is a defence against bad government.It isn't for two reasons , firstly there isn't any possibility of a large scale organised armed opposition getting off the ground , secondly if by any chance it did the victors would most likely be even worse.
 
Fuck this thead. This thread will live on forever and ever. :)

Let all these prissy ass types get the picture: there has been too much evidence supporting commen sense and free people in America. Now if these people want to come into my house and castrate me, it will be ugly. ;)
 
It's not a big issue. Not at all. It's a smokescreen hot button issue like abortion and gay marriage that has nothing to do with politics at all. It's a detail, that's all it is. Trust me. This is not what you should be worried about.

The things you should be worried about are why are you so poor? Why are all your friends poor? Why am I poor? Why are the majority of Americans struggling and in debt and working too hard for too many hours? Where is all our money going? Why is healthcare so expensive? Why is education so elitist and expensive? Why are we at war? Why is all our money being spent on war? Why are the billionaires getting richer? Why is inflation skyrocketing and we're all scraping away to get by? Why are we accepting a system that uses us, neglects us, doesn't listen to us, takes our money, and feeds us bullshit about guns and abortion to keep us split right down the middle in the perfect 2-party status quo so that nothing ever changes. See?

Those are the questions you should be asking.

I'm quite serious. I couldn't care less if you have guns. Do whatever makes you happy.

But this government is out of control, dude. Out of frikkin control.

As for Prof V, like I always said, anyone who actually used to read his stuff knows by now, you can't take this man seriously. He is totally living on another planet. Me? I put forward my opinions and my dreams for the future and us actually having control of where our tax money goes and what our government does - democracy. I don't claim to base them on 400 years of evidence, I only care about people - and I see the mess we're all in because of this system and the tyrants who have found perfect ways to exploit it.

Not to mention the mess the rest of the world is in because of these same tyrants that invade and exploit and create a spiderweb of MNCs to sap the dollars from across the planet.

But seriously, how can anyone take a guy seriously who claims he sexually abused someone, and makes a huge dramatic production out of it, and then says he was lying.

He also claims the US used nuclear weapons against Cuba:
http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=2262061&postcount=24
http://board.freeones.com/showpost.php?p=2206818&postcount=42

And being someone whose only real argument against anyone he disagrees with is "you don't know the facts. Ignorant fool. You don't respect my vast knowledge and authority. Get out of my country!" I think that, along with the way he completely belittles his opponents in his fatherly bold-type yelling crap, is an instant destroyer of credibility! You ever get the impression that if these debates were in person then the Prof would get maniacal and vicious and Georges would whip out his vast collection of knives? That's how you guys come across to me.

We can get violent, loud, and obsessive (like nitpicky line by line endless posts) when we know we're wrong. Any psychologist will tell you that.
You poor???? But didn't and don't you sell cds in thousand and hundreds thousands with your music group????? If it is the case, you aren't that poor and passing yourself for a poor when you are not as well as playing mother theresa's devil advocate is being a liar. The choices made by the governments are not always the best. Why is inflation here? That is because there is an economical globalization where firms from developed countries face the harsh competition from the emerging countries, looks like you have never heard about that school or perhaps your economics courses were very inaccurate??? Tyranny is for example living in China, Iran, North Korea, Syria and Cuba aka axis of Evil where there is no freedom of speech and when you don't abide the rules you are either stabbed or beaten.
You have never given concrete facts when a question was asked to you so how can you be taken seriously????
I won't whip out my knives because I am not in a case of being attacked or endangered. Also I am not going to risk my life for someone just because a matter of opinion. It was very predictable to receive an answer like this from you, guess I wasn't wrong, I was right as in most of the cases.
The one who is yelling crap in many political threads is the one who is speaking lots and loads of lies when lacking significant experience and knowledge about politics, constitution and history in a country where he wasn't born. You are a typical copy paste clone of Brino. You claim to have authority, that is the best joke I have ever heard in a while:scream: Sorry but you have zero authority for me, you are not enough strong minded, not enough rule abiding and not enough demanding towards others to make them respect orders and rules. Someone who has a natural authority is imposing himself/herself everywhere and is followed by everyone else, that is not your case. You want to pass yourself for Fox "the great" American who knows everything to American politics, culture and lifestyle but you failed brilliantly. Know your subject and all its sub contents perfectly then perhaps you will be able to have a normal discussion,let alone to have an idea on the subject.
 
Re: Again ...

However you want to label myself, so be it.
But just don't try to define my views so they fit the argument you want to have.
That seems to be a recurring theme here.
You shouldn't accuse people of things they haven't done. You're making wild claims which I'm trying to do "fact checking" and "clarifications" because a lot of your rant/essays feel more like disconnected "Unabomberish" gibberish.

Stop! The mega-corps are a result of a Facist economic model, not free-market capitalism.
This is my #1 problem with Republicans!

Prof, this is why it's difficult to actually debate you. You use terminology incorrectly. Explain to me how Republicans are "Fascists" in a textbook sense, not a metaphorical sense. According to this definition of Fascist/Fascism, this has nothing to do with Republican Social or Fiscal beliefs. Even I can't go that far to merely exaggerate.

fascist
One entry found.

fascism
Main Entry:
fas·cism Listen to the pronunciation of fascism
Pronunciation:
\ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date:
1921
1.often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascist


BAM! You did it again. Stop assuming!
Since when do Libertarian-Capitalists say "no regulation"? Since when?!
Prof, I am familiar with Libertarianism--the mothership word. I've never heard of Libertarian-Capitalism, and unless you can point to me to scholarly uses of that term, it may exist in the "lunatic fringe underbelly" of plain, old Libertarianism and, as such, is not recognized broadly enough to warrant a place in debate. Libertarians are against government regulation in any form. Your "Unabombish" exaggeration of "regulation" (Regulation>Exclusive Contracts>Monopolies) is just "Cronyism."

Any time you want to join me "outside the box," please do so.
Until then, please stop telling me what my views are when you clearly do not know them!
Take it easy Prof. You sound like you're hyperventilating and dancing up and down in your chair as you type these bombastic lambastes. I certainly have a hard time understanding your arguments because, so often, they're so disjointed and contradictory to what you write a mere one or two posts above. It's a fun, but tiresome game to "de-fog" your posts. Sometimes I muster the endurance to sift through the jungle. Other times, I gotta throw the towel in...
 
As an outsider I find some things quite difficult to comprehend about American thinking.The first is the apparent fear , verging on paranoia , of government.Sure, bad government is to be feared mightily (by this I mean bad, not just incompetent like in the UK at present) but good government can bring immense benefits to the people.Second is the idea that an armed population is a defence against bad government.It isn't for two reasons , firstly there isn't any possibility of a large scale organised armed opposition getting off the ground , secondly if by any chance it did the victors would most likely be even worse.

HEY! Don't just read a few of the Prof's rants and assume he speaks for all Americans!!! He certainly does NOT! I am for BIG, EFFICIENT Government. I believe in my countrymen and I think our collective power to "do good" makes all the inefficiencies and "headaches" worthwhile, in the end....
 
As an outsider I find some things quite difficult to comprehend about American thinking.The first is the apparent fear , verging on paranoia , of government.Sure, bad government is to be feared mightily (by this I mean bad, not just incompetent like in the UK at present) but good government can bring immense benefits to the people.

Well now I'm confused because I believe your contrast reflects the same general view most americans have of government. The difference seems ? to be that other countries are willing to sublimate that legitimate (as you've pointed out) fear of bad government.

Second is the idea that an armed population is a defence against bad government.It isn't for two reasons, firstly there isn't any possibility of a large scale organised armed opposition getting off the ground.

So then who's been shooting at us these last 5 years in Iraq?
 
There are over 215 million guns in the U.S.. The chance of these all being given up voluntary is nil.. Wether you support or oppose gun ownership it is a moot point.

I own 3, 2 were classics given to me by my grandfather, who has since passed away. The 3rd I shoot sporting clays with.

I am a liberal democrat and I relize that is very little point in making a change at this point.
 
I find it funny that the longest any major Democracy or Republic that has existed on this planet so far that encompasses nearly all of the people that have lived in it is only a little over 200 years. That is two or three lifetimes only. I could also point out that I can already see cracks starting to form in most of them that exist where they are slowly starting to erode away, even in the USA that for all practical purposes started and revolutionized that form of government. Considering written history has existed for about 5,000 years now and civilization even long before that, that doesn't say much about those forms of government.

I also find it sadly amusing that perhaps the worst war humanity has ever faced and the worst atrocities ever committed happened a mere 63 years ago in the very area upon which all the anti-gun Europeans now stand. The same ones that for some reason can't ever envision their government or one close to them going bad. Even today their are people that are still alive that can relate their experiences first hand. No no, you go on thinking we are the ones that are "paranoid". For the love of God, you don't even have to go that far from where you are to actually find oppressive governments or ones where human liberties are already on the downside (Like Turkey for example, or even Russia the past few years). I find it equally amusing that as much as people around the world bitch and complain about the politicians that screw them over and are constantly elitist and corrupt they somehow find the blind trust in them to willingly hand over one of the most precious things they will ever have, their freedom, and think that their vote is going to keep it that way. Think about it. Doesn't that seem utterly ridiculous. When you think about all terrible things done in tyranny over history, even people who do it to their own people, do you actually think just talking about it and holding hands is what's going to best assure us that things like that never happen again? I swear, I don't know what world some people think their living in. It's not just them, it's a lot of dumb people over here also. Do people out there really find it impossible to think more than a year, 5 years, 20 years, or a lifetime down the road?

I also find it ironic that most of the governments that recognize human rights are either the ones that in one point in their history had to use violence against their oppressors to get that way, or had to have the support of those countries (either directly or indirectly though sanctions and just pressure) to get that way. A lot of the people that rose up in those places were also places that outsiders never thought the people would ever be strong enough to throw off the shackles of their government but they did.

If it makes people in other parts of the world feel any better I don't care what they want for their own country. I admit I find their lack of common sense, foresight, and wisdom deeply saddening, but it is their country. If for some reason they find the need to do something that is just going to throw it all way at a future date then that's their business.

I'm not saying that as a person that likes violence. I would much rather be able to live the rest of my life knowing I would be free and left alone to live my life as I see fit. I would also like to know that everybody that lives after me has the it the same way. I don't want to kill people, or even hurt people. Frankly, I have seen enough bad things that I don't want any more of it. That doesn’t mean I'm going to stick my head in the sand and pretend bad things are never going to happen to people. Freedom isn't free. It never has been. It has always been paid for by the blood of the people that gave up their lives so we may have it, even if they knew they were never going to live to experience it themselves. It will never be free, and even more lives will be lost keeping it. It's a terrible reality, but it's also done because people realize that it's something so precious to be worth it. I would much rather live in a world where weapons weren't needed at all, but that world doesn't and will never exist short of something on the scale of divine intervention. Even if someday it's me that can't live because of it I will be happier knowing that I had the opportunity to at least die a death of my choosing fighting for others and myself than to be rounded up like sheep because in the end it's better to die free than live as a slave. Being armed means my countrymen’s and my decedents have that option. Of course freedom is also not free in another way. With freedom you will always have to pay the consequences for it. Just like the freedom of religion, thought, and speech can give away to hate and violence so can the freedom to be armed can give away to people to be killed by those arms. That's one of the prices of freedom. Is it worth it? Yes. There can be a cost, but the alternative to that is infinitely worse.

I can't speak for everybody, and maybe it's not true of every single person that wants to be armed, but I'm not some mindless crazed person out for bloodlust. I'm not irrational or "paranoid". I think of it as wisdom. I've seen reality for what it is, in a lot of respects the hard way. I just know that if I sit buy why every right that makes life worth living is slowly taken away then all those peoples' that had to die for mine, almost all of which I will never even know, lives will have been for nothing. I will have made their sacrifice meaningless by perhaps the worst thing I could do to make it so...my apathy. Maybe that's the problem with so many people. Maybe as long as they can sit on their ass all day and watch television or play games the rest of their lives then they don't ever have to worry about anything but themselves. Maybe, the people that have never had to struggle and fight for what they have just get to a point where they don't give a damn because they can't comprehend the terrible cost it took to give them those luxuries in the first place. Maybe at the end of the day it's just easier to be lazy and let the happenings of the world go as they may by the people that control us because otherwise people would have to get off said asses and realize they might be called upon to someday do something while realizing that is neither the easy or safe route. I wonder if in some ways, maybe if only on a subconscious level, if a lot of the reason is that people are scared not having that. Maybe they know if they had a real option, then that would eliminate a convenient excuse for them not to someday act.
 

Facetious

Moderated
Fellas - Just let it go ! You didn't have a podium finish, you're in the minority, better luck in the future. Enough already with your failed, desperate and tedious attempts to somehow discredit the author with "examples" derived from unrelated, long in tooth threads :sleep:


The opening question was clear to me
What gives ?
 
It is pathetic ...

It is pathetic how some people are absolutely reaching into threads over a half-year old to somehow discredit me. Others just say I invent things.

It doesn't matter when I fully admit I was purposely misleading, which I only done in one time in three (3) years here -- over half a year ago with a set of three, coordinated threads. It doesn't matter that I fully admit when I am wrong, often citing I should have realized I was too ignorant on a subject when I am. In fact, it's rather pathetic how far people have to go back to find them too. ;)

I started on this board when 50% of the board voted they thought the moon landings were faked. Several questioned if I invented terms like "angular momentum" then a well. Doesn't matter how I explain things, people will dismiss them, or even any remote assertion that I am an engineer. People who read my posts and see the same, technical meat in them over and over know where my expertise lies.

But in the end, none of these detractions, tangents or alleged discredits remove the fact that ...

- People voted as they did, overwhelmingly

- People who refuse to read up on any civics of a nation will only go in circles, failing to understand it, and often get frustrated in the process (if not completely "blanket labelling" everyone in the nation)

- People don't recognize that I, an American, don't go around criticizing other nations, or telling them how to act (seriously, read a lot of threads and you won't find me there judging others and their culture)

- People will miscontrude what I say into what I do not, especially given the fact that i will admit when they do get it right, and I was mistaken or misspoke

People will try to explain away what I say or do, instead of just taking it at face value. As anyone who knows me in person knows, I'm one person who admits his shortcomings and never attempt to cover up my faults, misgivings or mistakes.

Regardless of whether or not you believe it, if there is one thing I learned while working at NASA -- you do not play CYA games. That's why I'm forward with much of this. It's also why my wife -- who I allegedly abuse and otherwise mistreat by the words of many of the same "complainers" here -- loves me.

Again, pathetic, just pathetic.
 
I think all Americans condone Marxism. Isn't that what America is? We condone all ideas? Freedom of thought? After all - what is the opposite of condoning...

Seriously, I often wonder what you so-called Americans really think America means. Freedom is... freedom! As in - you don't choose things for other people -and they don't choose things for you. They don't dictate to you what "American values" are or should be. And you don't dictate to them. Each to their own. Everything condoned. Nothing persecuted.

I don't think I have to condone anything. I do support anyones rights to have thoughts but I certainly don't have to condone them.

def: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

I might think some thoughts/ideas are not to be condoned because I don't feel they are harmless.
 
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