Outlawing guns in the US ...

Should the US Federal Constitution's Second Amendment be overturned?

  • Yes, I want to bypass Constitutional process and directly overturn with simple majority

    Votes: 29 10.2%
  • Yes, I want it overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 30 10.6%
  • Indifferent, but it should only be overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 8 2.8%
  • No, but I'd accept it if overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 21 7.4%
  • No, and I don't think any Amendments of the [i]Bill of Rights[/i] should ever be repealed

    Votes: 186 65.5%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 10 3.5%

  • Total voters
    284
I vote for Indifferent as im a foreigner and not directly concerned with the issue at hand. Yet, im Canadian so i don't share the same values regarding firearms than the average US citizen and i'm well aware of that.

That said, the Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act sounds good in my opinion.

Don't throw rotten tomatoes my way! Its just my foreign :2 cents:
 
I've been over this before but it's worth repeating.We are looking at what was written in the 18th century - a different world-with 21st century eyes.
At the time gun ownership was pretty well universal for those who could afford them.There were dangers from wild animals and from other human beings too in days when there was no police force.A gun was as much an everyday item as a horse or a spade.So clearly the Amendment didn't give the right to own a gun as that right already existed.The Militia Act followed soon after and made the intention of the 2nd amendment very clear to those prepared to give it some thought.
The idea of having guns to protect against tyrannical government was put about at the time of the Revolution-the tyrannical government they had in mind was based in London not closer to home.
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
I've been over this before but it's worth repeating.We are looking at what was written in the 18th century - a different world-with 21st century eyes.
At the time gun ownership was pretty well universal for those who could afford them.There were dangers from wild animals and from other human beings too in days when there was no police force.A gun was as much an everyday item as a horse or a spade.So clearly the Amendment didn't give the right to own a gun as that right already existed.The Militia Act followed soon after and made the intention of the 2nd amendment very clear to those prepared to give it some thought.
The idea of having guns to protect against tyrannical government was put about at the time of the Revolution-the tyrannical government they had in mind was based in London not closer to home.

I disagree...mainly because I wasn't there to hear them say it, but then again, nether were you. Seems to me, that Government is a lot closer to home, then it used to be. Maybe if we weren't allowed to own guns, they wouldn't have to fly planes into buildings, they could just start a war with all of the illegal guns they import in sea/rail containers. I often wonder how many illegal SKS/AK's made it through the port in California, that Clinton gave to China during the original A.W.B. I wonder how much he made on that ridicules ban. Which is a nice little segue into this....

Dawn said:
I vote for Indifferent as im a foreigner and not directly concerned with the issue at hand. Yet, im Canadian so i don't share the same values regarding firearms than the average US citizen and i'm well aware of that.

That said, the Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act sounds good in my opinion.

Don't throw rotten tomatoes my way! Its just my foreign

These bans serve no purpose other then to disarm a lawful citizen. Something like 1 or 2 percent of violent gun crime involves one of these so called "assault" weapons, which is just a nice scary word designed to invoke panic and fear. Make NO MISTAKE, EVER, that the United States Government, it's individual states, or local authorities, will never pass a gun law for the safety of ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES. They could care less about the police, the private citizen, or a schoolyard full of little kids. The lives of these people mean nothing to them, they pass these laws to get us a little closer to helpless, and disarmed. It's not real easy to resist an aggressive force armed with the high tech weaponry most Governments have, when all they let you own is a black powder rifle, or a double barreled shotgun.
 
These bans serve no purpose other then to disarm a lawful citizen.

Having those weapons serve a purpose? :confused:

It's ridiculous to claim people want to possess such kind of weapon just in case, out of the blue, a tyrannical governement appears. Or to claim it's unquestionnable only because the Founding Fathers written it on a piece of paper so long ago that the historical purpose of it fails to make sense nowadays.

Is there a single example, in real life, where having such weapons served a purpose in the US History?
 
I've been over this before but it's worth repeating.We are looking at what was written in the 18th century - a different world-with 21st century eyes.
At the time gun ownership was pretty well universal for those who could afford them.There were dangers from wild animals and from other human beings too in days when there was no police force.A gun was as much an everyday item as a horse or a spade.So clearly the Amendment didn't give the right to own a gun as that right already existed.The Militia Act followed soon after and made the intention of the 2nd amendment very clear to those prepared to give it some thought.
The idea of having guns to protect against tyrannical government was put about at the time of the Revolution-the tyrannical government they had in mind was based in London not closer to home.

Great post.

Guns for hunting or a VERY dangerous neighbourhood? Okay. But as a defence against the U.S. government? Neurotic and useless. A rifle vs. a B-2? Whatever.
 
Having those weapons serve a purpose? :confused:

It's ridiculous to claim people want to possess such kind of weapon just in case, out of the blue, a tyrannical governement appears. Or to claim it's unquestionnable only because the Founding Fathers written it on a piece of paper so long ago that the historical purpose of it fails to make sense nowadays.

Is there a single example, in real life, where having such weapons served a purpose in the US History?

Yes, these weapons serve for preventing robberies at gunpoint, robberies at knife point, abductions, car theft and potential drug dealers threatening the neighborhood. The second amendment makes sense for every responsible citizen who cares about his rights and about the constitution. Anti second amendment people are the same people who banned the 50 BMG sniping rifle for law enforcement in Cali and they also banned high cap magazines during the Clinton era. Also the anti second amendment people are a bunch of leftists who are very often not real patriots and people who have absolutely not respect for the constitution.
Personally having been many times in the USA, I would rather have a concealed carry permit and a pair of guns than being the victim of some ms13 or blood gangsta ghetto scumbag.
 
Yes, these weapons serve for preventing robberies at gunpoint, robberies at knife point, abductions, car theft and potential drug dealers threatening the neighborhood.

Guns arent preventing those things to happend neither lowering the quantity of times those situations happends.

The second amendment makes sense for every responsible citizen who cares about his rights and about the constitution. Anti second amendment people are the same people who banned the 50 BMG sniping rifle for law enforcement in Cali and they also banned high cap magazines during the Clinton era. Also the anti second amendment people are a bunch of leftists who are very often not real patriots and people who have absolutely not respect for the constitution.

That's the Right-Wing anti-leftish mud thrown at anyone questionning the second amendment. And no, i won't play the game to answer stuff like that. You can be a Patriot, a respectable American citizen without being a Republican or Right-Winger.

http://board.freeones.com/showthread.php?t=256041

Personally having been many times in the USA, I would rather have concealed carry permit and a pair of guns than being the victim of some ms13 or blood gangsta ghetto scumbag.


I have been often in USA (I live in Montréal, 2 hours away from New-York City). And i never, ever experienced anything like that. And yet, do you think carrying a gun can really help if you are into such situation? I mean, not in your imagination, but in reality?
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
The second amendment makes sense for every responsible citizen who cares about his rights and about the constitution. Anti second amendment people are the same people who banned the 50 BMG sniping rifle for law enforcement in Cali and they also banned high cap magazines during the Clinton era. Also the anti second amendment people are a bunch of leftists who are very often not real patriots and people who have absolutely not respect for the constitution.

Guns arent preventing those things to happend neither lowering the quantity of times those situations happends.

That's the Right-Wing anti-leftish mud thrown at anyone questionning the second amendment. And no, i won't play the game to answer stuff like that. You can be a Patriot, a respectable American citizen without being a Republican or Right-Winger.

No one can prevent crimes from happening. They have to happen then you deal with the criminals.

It's not right or left wing, they are Socialists and are guilty of treason.

Anyone trying to ban guns in anyway of any type, are guilty of treason.

The only true laws of America are found in the Constitution, Preamble, Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. Not the "Supreme Court". They are to uphold the laws in those four documents. Just like the President is sworn to uphold. Not to make an unpatriot act. Like Bush did.

It's unconstitutional and treason.
 
No one can prevent crimes from happening. They have to happen then you deal with the criminals.

It's not right or left wing, they are Socialists and are guilty of treason.

Anyone trying to ban guns in anyway of any type, are guilty of treason.

The only true laws of America are found in the Constitution, Preamble, Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. Not the "Supreme Court". They are to uphold the laws in those four documents. Just like the President is sworn to uphold. Not to make an unpatriot act. Like Bush did.

It's unconstitutional and treason.
I guess you're not big on freedom of speech, huh?


Btw, these gun threads are ALWAYS interesting, lol.
 
No one can prevent crimes from happening. They have to happen then you deal with the criminals.

It's not right or left wing, they are Socialists and are guilty of treason.

Anyone trying to ban guns in anyway of any type, are guilty of treason.

The only true laws of America are found in the Constitution, Preamble, Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. Not the "Supreme Court". They are to uphold the laws in those four documents. Just like the President is sworn to uphold. Not to make an unpatriot act. Like Bush did.

It's unconstitutional and treason.

Guantanamo won't be big enough to welcome all the treators...
 
Legal v. illegal onwership, and the "actual issues" with legal owners ...

First off, let's separate illegal gun ownership from legal gun ownership. We'll establish that illegal ownership is not something that's controllable, much less the government could not collect a significant number of guns in this country even if they outlawed them.

So, secondly, let's look closer at legal gun ownership. Many casualties result from ...

1. Alcohol consumption

2. Not being taught how to properly handle a firearm (primary owners)

3. Not being taught how to respect a firearm (especially kids of primary owners)

Etc...

The first two, and many others, are due to irresponsibility of the citizen, and many times indirectly. In fact, I made this point prior, alcohol causes so many issues in this nation, so much so that once women were allowed to vote, a Constitutional Amendment was passed shortly afterward to outlaw drinking.

What did that do? The root cause is that the citizen, even if a very small minority, is too irresponsible to handle something. But outlawing it does not remove the root cause, it only leaves the problem to the illegal owners who make things worse, not better.

People forget how many legal gun owners there are in the US, and how extremely few of them are involved with any such incidents. The other statistics are either the illegal users, or those minority of legal users who are irresponsible. This is absolutely no different than many other things.

Now the third one is my personal favorite. There's already talk of making the teaching of a child to use a firearm illegal. That utterly self-defeating. The over-whelming majority of kids that kill others and themselves with guns are the ones that don't even know how to handle them, much less respect them.

If there is a gun in the house, the first two (2) rules the kid needs to be taught are:
1. If you pick up a gun, you intend to use it (and have that purpose already in sound mind)
2. If you aim a gun, you intend to fire it (at what you're already aiming at, without question)

The most irresponsible thing a parent can do is own a gun and not teach the kid to respect the firearm. It's kinda hard to do that without having that child hold the firearm and experience the kind of death it can bring. Kids get on "power trips" when they watch movies. When they face the reality of what something can do, it actually teaches them a real lesson. Otherwise, they'll only learn that lesson too late -- and that's the repeat theme I've heard over and over.

I'm a Libertarian-Capitalist, which means I think most people, the law abiding citizens, know better than their government or -- worse yet -- the influence over government of a select few who have their interests, group together and enact their "group right" over everyone else at the expense of their "individual rights" they don't agree with.

The general statistics of the US show a very individualist, free and, as a side effect in various ways, violent society compared to many other, industrial nations. Removing guns will not curb that. The US' issues with pregnancy rates, other crimes and other statistics show similar differences and attitudes as well.

Lastly, I'm so tired of the demonization of the NRA. The average gun owning citizen I've met is often far less responsible than the average -- let alone active -- NRA member. People pick little things they want to argue with the NRA on, and forget the entire attitude of the NRA is responsible gun ownership, period (the 2nd Amendment defense, among others, is just part of that equation).

It's no different than the often same demonization I've seen made of the ACLU. People pick the little things they want to disagree with on the ACLU, and totally ignore their message and dedication to civics. I would trust the civics of any ACLU member -- let alone active -- any day to any American citizen, let alone politician. They exist to protect the public from destroying its own civics (the 1st Amendment defense, among others, is just part of that equation).

Regardless of what people may think, gun ownership is about personal and family protection. Unfortunately, a small minority of legal gun owners don't take that responsibility seriously enough. That's sad, but it's the same issue with alcohol, sex, other crimes, etc... in this country -- very linear, compared to other, industrial nations.

It's the right that you have to bear arms and protect yourself if you wish. The murkier definition on that is whether it is true or not outside of your home. But inside of your own home, it is, utterly.

Furthermore, gun ownership works only when everyone agreed to be responsible. That's why it almost always works in small communities ... which is about person-to-person accountability. But that's hardly a problem limited to guns. Which is why I don't see this remotely as a gun problem, but a greater responsibility and accountability problem.

Which is why I repeatedly come back to my Libertarian-Capitalist ideals, because they are repeatedly true in that regard.
 
Food for the thoughts, Prof Voluptuary! Great to read your opinion on this question. :thumbsup:
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Re: Legal v. illegal onwership, and the "actual issues" with legal owners ...

Regardless of what people may think, gun ownership is about personal and family protection. Unfortunately, a small minority of legal gun owners don't take that responsibility seriously enough. That's sad, but it's the same issue with alcohol, sex, other crimes, etc... in this country -- very linear, compared to other, industrial nations.

Also, to protect ourselves when any government becomes despotic.

Anyone that is a member of the NRA has already registered their weapons.
Even if they don't believe in registering them.

Freedom of speech includes the right to public utterance of a desire to repeal ANY Amendment; even the 5'th.

If someone or a group is trying to take away someone else's freedoms then that is not their right.
Never will be.
 
Re: Legal v. illegal onwership, and the "actual issues" with legal owners ...

Also, to protect ourselves when any government becomes despotic.

Anyone that is a member of the NRA has already registered their weapons.
Even if they don't believe in registering them.



If someone or a group is trying to take away someone else's freedoms then that is not their right.
Never will be.

To forcibly take their right is illegal. To state their desire to legally repeal an Amendment is not.
Never will be.;)
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
They can talk about it all they want. But...to forcibly or to petition to take away people's freedoms is unconstitutional and will start another war.
 
Re: Legal v. illegal onwership, and the "actual issues" with legal owners ...

If someone or a group is trying to take away someone else's freedoms then that is not their right.
Never will be.

*cought* patriot act *cought*
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Re: Legal v. illegal onwership, and the "actual issues" with legal owners ...

*cought* patriot act *cought*

I already mentioned that. It's an illegal document.
That needs to be ripped up.

Wether it ever goes into effect, I'll never adhere to it.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Re: Legal v. illegal onwership, and the "actual issues" with legal owners ...

I already mentioned that. It's an illegal document.
That needs to be ripped up.

Wether it ever goes into effect, I'll never adhere to it.

Please explain to me how it's illegal.
 
Top