Muhammad Ali... THE Champ, dead at 74

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Credit to him for changing but what he's being being revered for (for the most part) is when he was a young radical.

From a boxing perspective I would agree. From his impact on society as a whole, however, it was what he did in the years after his retirement from boxing that makes him extraordinary as a human being in my opinion. You can think what you want to about him....I shouldn't let things that others think or say bother me. Your "shitty person" remark struck a nerve I guess. I discredit the dignity of his memory and this thread that Rey was so kind to post by arguing with you about it. R.I.P. to The Greatest.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
From a boxing perspective I would agree. From his impact on society as a whole, however, it was what he did in the years after his retirement from boxing that makes him extraordinary as a human being in my opinion. You can think what you want to about him....I shouldn't let things that others think or say bother me. Your "shitty person" remark struck a nerve I guess. I discredit the dignity of his memory and this thread that Rey was so kind to post by arguing with you about it. R.I.P. to The Greatest.

Not at all. (I'd rep you again, but I'm out of quarters :D) I expect that Ali would have appreciated both sides of the debate here. But (and no offense intended toward Animus), Ali would not have given two shits what he thought of him as a young man or as an old man. Whether right or wrong, he said himself that he was not politically correct and he had no desire to be politically correct. He was a take it or leave it type character. And that's what I liked about him. That's how my father was, and so I grew up with that sort of attitude all around me. But, as seems necessary in these hyper-sensitive times in which we currently live, youngish folk nowadays feel a duty to pass judgment on those who may have said something which does not pass their PC litmus test. Yep, Ali was brash, arrogant, "played the dozens" better than anyone who I have ever seen or heard (how many youngsters these days even know what that means? :facepalm:) and certainly did say some pointed, offensive and reactionary things... primarily based on how he was treated throughout his youth, growing up in the segregated south. Government sponsored and mandated racism, I would say, is a tad bit different than just having some guys make fun of you between classes, or whatever the case may be. Some people turn the other cheek. And other people, well, they will smack you in the mouth... twice - just so that you don't forget what the deal is. I'm not rationalizing or defending anything that Ali said or did. But unlike people these days, he owned it! None of this sickening, pussy-foot BS that we see from people these days.

As Ali grew and matured as a person, he stood with great leaders and heads of state throughout the world, from Pope John Paul to Billy Graham to Nelson Mandela, among many others. He learned to accept, or at least tolerate, those with whom he did not agree. His words and charitable actions motivated downtrodden people to raise themselves, and even encouraged an oppressive government to release political prisoners. How could a "shitty human being" sports star do that? Why would respected world leaders meet with a "shitty human being" sports star... if that's ALL that he was??? He didn't become the most famous person in the world just because he could dance and juke before he knocked someone senseless. Some people understand that. And clearly, some people do not. But that's OK. Not everyone's going to get it and people are free to believe whatever they choose to believe.

As you mentioned earlier, Ali was not without flaws or sin. And he never said that he was. But in and out of the ring, he learned to play to his strengths and minimized his weaknesses and frailties - something that many of us do as we grow older and mature.

Muhammad-Ali-on-Courage.jpg


And in my opinion, he did a pretty damn good job of it.

tumblr_mdhux6bEPw1qasfz9o1_1280.jpg
 
Lots of vivid memories.
A lot of ambivalent feelings for me as a young kid. My father, who'd been a boxer, and was a staunch conservative, pretty much reviled the younger Ali due to the seemingly out of control ego, the open hostility towards white people, the "draft dodging", the genuine cruelty towards Joe Frazier. I was influenced a lot by his opinion at the time.
But soon thereafter I began to develop my own perspective, and in the end I gained some genuine awareness through Ali.
RIP Champ
 
Not at all. (I'd rep you again, but I'm out of quarters :D) I expect that Ali would have appreciated both sides of the debate here. But (and no offense intended toward Animus), Ali would not have given two shits what he thought of him as a young man or as an old man. Whether right or wrong, he said himself that he was not politically correct and he had no desire to be politically correct. He was a take it or leave it type character. And that's what I liked about him. That's how my father was, and so I grew up with that sort of attitude all around me. But, as seems necessary in these hyper-sensitive times in which we currently live, youngish folk nowadays feel a duty to pass judgment on those who may have said something which does not pass their PC litmus test. Yep, Ali was brash, arrogant, "played the dozens" better than anyone who I have ever seen or heard (how many youngsters these days even know what that means? :facepalm:) and certainly did say some pointed, offensive and reactionary things... primarily based on how he was treated throughout his youth, growing up in the segregated south. Government sponsored and mandated racism, I would say, is a tad bit different than just having some guys make fun of you between classes, or whatever the case may be. Some people turn the other cheek. And other people, well, they will smack you in the mouth... twice - just so that you don't forget what the deal is. I'm not rationalizing or defending anything that Ali said or did. But unlike people these days, he owned it! None of this sickening, pussy-foot BS that we see from people these days.

As Ali grew and matured as a person, he stood with great leaders and heads of state throughout the world, from Pope John Paul to Billy Graham to Nelson Mandela, among many others. He learned to accept, or at least tolerate, those with whom he did not agree. His words and charitable actions motivated downtrodden people to raise themselves, and even encouraged an oppressive government to release political prisoners. How could a "shitty human being" sports star do that? Why would respected world leaders meet with a "shitty human being" sports star... if that's ALL that he was??? He didn't become the most famous person in the world just because he could dance and juke before he knocked someone senseless. Some people understand that. And clearly, some people do not. But that's OK. Not everyone's going to get it and people are free to believe whatever they choose to believe.

As you mentioned earlier, Ali was not without flaws or sin. And he never said that he was. But in and out of the ring, he learned to play to his strengths and minimized his weaknesses and frailties - something that many of us do as we grow older and mature.

Muhammad-Ali-on-Courage.jpg


And in my opinion, he did a pretty damn good job of it.

tumblr_mdhux6bEPw1qasfz9o1_1280.jpg


I was going to just let this go but I can't. I'm not passing judgement on Ali so much as I am on the hypocrisy of white liberals such as yourself and jagger. And the racism I experienced wasn't "between class" fuck you very much, which I could've easily dealt with myself, but it involved much more than that.

Again, if he were a white sports legend, but happened to be a member of the KKK in his earlier years but later changed and did alot of good you wouldn't be sucking his dick.
 
As Ali grew and matured as a person, he stood with great leaders and heads of state throughout the world, from Pope John Paul to Billy Graham to Nelson Mandela, among many others. He learned to accept, or at least tolerate, those with whom he did not agree. His words and charitable actions motivated downtrodden people to raise themselves, and even encouraged an oppressive government to release political prisoners. How could a "shitty human being" sports star do that? Why would respected world leaders meet with a "shitty human being" sports star... if that's ALL that he was??? He didn't become the most famous person in the world just because he could dance and juke before he knocked someone senseless. Some people understand that. And clearly, some people do not. But that's OK. Not everyone's going to get it and people are free to believe whatever they choose to believe.

Again, my criticism of Ali as a "shitty human being" was directed at his earlier years, when he was bragging about being "the most recognizable person on earth" The question was asked "how was he an extremist?" I laid that out. You and jagger keep bringing up his benevolence post career. That's GREAT. But that was never what I was talking about.


Another gem from this moron:

"I have been so great in boxing they had to create an image like Rocky, a white image on the screen, to counteract my image in the ring. America has to have its white images, no matter where it gets them. Jesus, Wonder Woman, Tarzan and Rocky."
 
I was going to just let this go but I can't. I'm not passing judgement on Ali so much as I am on the hypocrisy of white liberals such as yourself and jagger. And the racism I experienced wasn't "between class" fuck you very much, which I could've easily dealt with myself, but it involved much more than that.

Again, if he were a white sports legend, but happened to be a member of the KKK in his earlier years but later changed and did alot of good you wouldn't be sucking his dick.

For fuck's sake, does everything have to be political? Please don't be that person who manages to bring liberals vs. conservatives into every subject :suicide:
 
For fuck's sake, does everything have to be political? Please don't be that person who manages to bring liberals vs. conservatives into every subject :suicide:

We're talking about Muhammad Ali. There's no controversy that he's the greatest boxer ever. The controversy surrounding him has something to do with politics.
 
This thread was meant to honor Ali and I apologize. Whatever objections I have towards his past, he deserves that honor and this wasn't the thread to debate that anyways. Sorry.
I'm the one who should've shown some subtlety and/or class.
 
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