Manny Ramirez tests positive

Greinke was seen as a can't miss prospect from day one. He showed great promise in his first year, and then fell off somewhat, and the reason for that was later revealed to be social anxiety disorder, which led to depression. It's not like he was terrible for ten years, the guy had two bad seasons, (one of which wasn't really all that bad, he just had a TERRIBLE team). Dontrelle Willis is dealing with the same thing right now. If you want to credit steroids for his dominance, go right ahead, but he's shown he can pitch this way before.

As for Pujols, I'm not sure how looking like McGwire correlates to anything at all. I can't speak for you, but for I don't assume he's on steroids because he simply hasn't failed a test. You can question the legitimacy of the tests all you want, but he's yet to fail a test, and considering so many other big names have been caught, that seems to mean something. If he fails a test tomorrow, then we've got something, but this "everybody is on steroids" attitude just seems like conspiracy to me.

Agree about the Greinke part. He's always got the stuff to be dominate and now that he's overcome his anxiety disorder his talent is there for everyone to see.

As for Pujols remember that Manny didn't fail a test in 10 plus years until now. When Pujols is near 40 we'll see if he can still keep up his amazing numbers without getting caught with roids.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
At least Manny owned up to everything and is taking all of the blame and responsibility for his actions. If he would've started denying everything right away, I would've thought he purposely took PEDs, but, since he immediately took responsibility for his miscue, I (at the moment) believe that he wasn't aware that a banned substance was being taken.
 
Is evidence needed anymore? Grienke was practically an MLB washout and now, all of a sudden, he's the greatest pitcher in the league:1orglaugh:rolleyes:

C'mon. He's just the next Roidger Clemens fishing for a big contract.....

Albert Pujols looks like a Mark McGuire Clone. Why should I NOT assume that he's on Roids? :dunno:

I think Grienke's problems were more mental than anything. I don't even know how much steroids would help him even if he did do them.
 
At least Manny owned up to everything and is taking all of the blame and responsibility for his actions. If he would've started denying everything right away, I would've thought he purposely took PEDs, but, since he immediately took responsibility for his miscue, I (at the moment) believe that he wasn't aware that a banned substance was being taken.

I agree.

But if manny admits to useing it why has nothing happened to A-Rod? The MLB drug policy is bullshit.
 
I agree.

But if manny admits to useing it why has nothing happened to A-Rod? The MLB drug policy is bullshit.

A-Rod admitted to using them years before the present drug policy was in place. You can't really rightfully punish somebody for a rule that didn't even exist when they did it.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
I agree.

But if manny admits to useing it why has nothing happened to A-Rod? The MLB drug policy is bullshit.

A-Rod admitted to using them years before the present drug policy was in place. You can't really rightfully punish somebody for a rule that didn't even exist when they did it.

Yeah, I think that Alex Rodriguez is going unpunished because he admitted to using steroids in the past. According to the rules, I don't think that players can be punished now for things they did years ago.
 
What better way to 'install confidence' in a broken pitcher than for him to load up on a Roid or HGH cocktail? I vaguely remember Grienke as an Expos/Caps pitcher (?) and he was nothing special then. Then he practically washes out of the league. Now he comes back better than ever on ONE OF THE WORST TEAMS EVER PUT TOGETHER...C'mon people. Even this smells like stinky fish to me. Manny got caught with a complex drug used by Roiders coming off of a cycle. Who knows if Pujols just has better masking drugs? There is no reliable test for HGH at the moment.

I think it's hilarious that Pujols is going to be "the face of the Home Run Derby" this season because if/when he fails his tests...it will make a nice covershot to his scandal...

MLB has zero credibility and is a sham sport.
 
If memory serves, haven't 103 unnamed MLB players tested positive for Roids in 2003? Who's on that list? Big stars or nobodies?

Can't Jose Canseco sue MLB under freedom of information act and claim that he's writing a new book on Roids and needs the list for research purposes?

Maybe that would get MLB to release the names and we can realllllly toss some kerosene on this scandal.....muwhahaha
 

member979979

Closed Account
Why is baseball always getting hammered with this steroid crap? I mean its probably the one sport where you dont really need to be strong.
 
Agree about the Greinke part. He's always got the stuff to be dominate and now that he's overcome his anxiety disorder his talent is there for everyone to see.

As for Pujols remember that Manny didn't fail a test in 10 plus years until now. When Pujols is near 40 we'll see if he can still keep up his amazing numbers without getting caught with roids.

Testing has only been in place since 2004, so theoretically, Manny could have done steroids back then. But again, Manny didn't test positive for steroids, he tested positive for a banned substance, and that's an important distinction to make.

What better way to 'install confidence' in a broken pitcher than for him to load up on a Roid or HGH cocktail? I vaguely remember Grienke as an Expos/Caps pitcher (?) and he was nothing special then. Then he practically washes out of the league. Now he comes back better than ever on ONE OF THE WORST TEAMS EVER PUT TOGETHER...C'mon people. Even this smells like stinky fish to me. Manny got caught with a complex drug used by Roiders coming off of a cycle. Who knows if Pujols just has better masking drugs? There is no reliable test for HGH at the moment.

I think it's hilarious that Pujols is going to be "the face of the Home Run Derby" this season because if/when he fails his tests...it will make a nice covershot to his scandal...

MLB has zero credibility and is a sham sport.

I don't understand how putting Greinke on steroids would solve his problems. He could use steroids for years, and if he's suffering from clinical depression, it isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. And for the record, he was drafted and has spent his entire career with the Royals, and has since day one been considered a top prospect, because he has performed this way in the minors, and early in his major league career. If the fact that he was "almost a washout" is so damning in your view, then it seems to me that you're implying the same thing with Dontrelle Willis.

The comment about MLB being a sham is unfortunately, a side effect of some poor choices, and unfortunately to me, the criticism is somewhat deserved, although I don't tend to agree. Pujols could be on steroids, sure, but he hasn't failed a test, and if you're concerned about HGH being the reason he is so good, I think you need to go back and look and what HGH can, and can't do, because while it is banned, it won't do the same thing as a steroid. HGH will give a person more muscle mass, but that is simply because the muscle fibers enlongate. It's akin to taking a supplement that makes your body tissue retain more water. And since 2004, there has been a reliable test, it's just simply a test that the Players Union tried to categorize as unreliable to prevent mandatory testing.

Look, if you want to play the conspiracy theory card over and over, you're welcome to, but I'd be careful to show some evidence of what you're saying.

If memory serves, haven't 103 unnamed MLB players tested positive for Roids in 2003? Who's on that list? Big stars or nobodies?

Can't Jose Canseco sue MLB under freedom of information act and claim that he's writing a new book on Roids and needs the list for research purposes?

Maybe that would get MLB to release the names and we can realllllly toss some kerosene on this scandal.....muwhahaha

If I recall correctly, someone in San Francisco a few years ago tried to sue MLB for that exact reason, and I believe it was thrown out because of some anti-trust laws that are well beyond me.
 
Well. All I can say is I thought Manny was "crazy like a fox" in terms of maybe thinking he wasn't a dumbshit like most people thought he was. I've seen him make AMAZINGLY difficult catches in left field only to turn around and do that stupid "dive for the cutoff throw" or the catch where he drops the ball, trips and rolls all over the field like a mutt rollin' around in poop.

For him to get pinched like this--in the middle of the Steroid Cloud--is beyond moronic.

Or....what he did was what any American would do....cheat to get ahead in life. At the Macro Level--what Manny did, cheat to get that $20Mil--seems small potatoes to the Real Estate Sham Bubble of inflated home prices, corrupt bankers and brokers authorizing unprepared homeowners and walking away with commissions before the market crashed, and Bernie Madoff...

Basically...Steroids in Baseball seems to me nothing more than a "micro" version of the American Scam....all of these baseball and NFL stars that get pinched for Roids are doing it purely for greed.

Albert Pujols, Zach Grienke, Big Papi Ortiz, all of these players have done or are doing Roids right now. Big Papi was Hall of Fame-esque during the 2004-2007 seasons and now he can't hit? He's just 2 years into his down juice cycle because he wants to "protect his Hall of Fame Credentials" and if Papi starts juicing again, the Boston Media will eat him alive. Hell, the Boston Media might start snooping around Papi's Dominican offseason training regime...

The NFL has a similar banned substance problem with roids and HGH (Shawn Merrimen anyone?) it's just the players doing Roids are normally noname OLine or Dline players trying to earn that contract.

Maybe there needs to be a country somewhere that starts a Pro League in some sport and allows for ALL DRUG USE by players so we can see Roided Out Circus Freaks hit baseballs a mile, and LSD dropping hopheads pass out midgame....let's create an actual "playground" for these circus freaks to amuse us in...:thumbsup:

pass out from LSD?
 
Testing has only been in place since 2004, so theoretically, Manny could have done steroids back then. But again, Manny didn't test positive for steroids, he tested positive for a banned substance, and that's an important distinction to make.
It's just a matter of time now before it all comes out for Manny. It is not a significant distinction to make anymore. This particular banned substance has usage in the "Roid Users World." It ain't like Manny thought it was a calcium supplement or a fish oil supplement:dunno: It's basically "the smoke" from a "smoking gun." The journalists will scour around for "the gun" now.


I don't understand how putting Greinke on steroids would solve his problems. He could use steroids for years, and if he's suffering from clinical depression, it isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. And for the record, he was drafted and has spent his entire career with the Royals, and has since day one been considered a top prospect, because he has performed this way in the minors, and early in his major league career. If the fact that he was "almost a washout" is so damning in your view, then it seems to me that you're implying the same thing with Dontrelle Willis
I believe Canseco was right in 2005 (85% of MLB on Roids) and what we're seeing today with Manny (specifically) and MAYBE/MOST LIKELY anyone who is doing things out of the norm--(Grienke--great year, Big Papi another bad year) is players are having difficulty negotiating the world of Banned Substances whereas within a few years ago, there were no issues negotiating this world. Some players, like Papi (Jim Thome?), have come clean and now they can't do shit. Some players like Pujols and Manny are still working the system. Greinke (who I do recall from 2004/2005 but I'm obviously completely wrong with his teams) has all the motive in the world to use banned substances to "recapture his promise" and "land a whopper contract" is getting thrown in with the entire world of MLB as being probably a user. Dontrelle Willis has mechanical issues with his throwing motion. I don't think he'll ever pitch well again because his throwing motion is too complicated, nobody can figure it out, and he can't "relearn" a new throwing motion.
 
Other than to stave off aging, and maybe sometimes recovering from a significant injury or workload, I also have a hard time seeing how most pitchers would benefit that much from steroids. Grienke doesn't really fit any of those conditions.
 
^
We would have the pitcher/hitter issue cleared up if we could learn the identities of the "103"....

Not necessarily. The percentage of users between batters and hitters might not be an indicator of the drugs actual effectiveness for each person in each situation. I could see a large portion of them either not knowing what they are doing, or just taking it in the hopes it might give them the slightest improvement at all, where others probably have more of a benefit from it.
 
It is not a significant distinction to make anymore. This particular banned substance has usage in the "Roid Users World." It ain't like Manny thought it was a calcium supplement or a fish oil supplement. It's basically "the smoke" from a "smoking gun." The journalists will scour around for "the gun" now.

I disagree with that statement. Sure, it has implications in the steroid using community, but bottom line, it's not a steroid, and he didn't fail a test for steroids. Additionally, I don't think it's fair to assume what Manny thought when he took it, because both he and his doctor have said they didn't know the drug would fail a test or contained a banned substance. Until there is evidence to the contrary, it's just speculation to assume otherwise. Manny will probably do the same thing that J.C. Romero did and sue the doctor for essentially being negligent. I'm not sure what there is to say that Manny didn't legitimately use the stuff for ED.

Greinke (who I do recall from 2004/2005 but I'm obviously completely wrong with his teams) has all the motive in the world to use banned substances to "recapture his promise" and "land a whopper contract" is getting thrown in with the entire world of MLB as being probably a user. Dontrelle Willis has mechanical issues with his throwing motion. I don't think he'll ever pitch well again because his throwing motion is too complicated, nobody can figure it out, and he can't "relearn" a new throwing motion.

I have no doubt that Greinke has reason to try to impress. But then again, so does every other Major League player, it's the nature of the business. However, this lends absolutely zero credence to the idea that he is factually using steroids. The most telling part of Greinke's "rebirth" so to speak, might in a few of his stats.


Zach Greinke Average Fastball MPH
2004-2007 - 94.8 MPH
2008 - 93.0 MPH
2009 (So far) - 92.9 MPH

Average Slider Movement (Horizontal)
2004-2007 - 5.7 inches
2008 - 5.0 inches
2009 - 4.8 inches

Average Curve Movement (Horizontal)
2004-2007 - 8.1 inches
2008 - 7.5 inches
2009 - 6.0 inches

But the most telling statistics of his so far:

BB/9
2004-2007 - ~2.9
2008 - 2.49
2009 - 1.36

K/9
2004-2007 - ~7
2008 - 8.14
2009 - 10.02

Strike Zone Swing % (The percent of pitches in the strike zone, that a batter swings at)
2004-2007 - 67%
2008 - 65%
2009 - 59.6%

The guy has walked fewer batters, struck out more, his fastball has lost speed, his offspeed pitches have lost movement, and people are swinging at fewer pitches in the zone. Anyone who knows a damn thing about pitching would tell you that means exactly one thing: he's hitting his spots, plain and simple. I don't know about you, but I've never heard of a steroid or any other PED that will magically make you hit your spots and throw strikes.

And one of the startling things about Dontrelle Willis was that his mechanics were actually sound once he was sent down. He just couldn't hit the damn strike zone, and that's the exact reason that he went in for psychological testing this spring, and was finally diagnosed with social anxiety disorder, which quite often leads to depression. Simply put, if you can't mentally focus and pitch, you aren't going to be successful. Dontrelle and Greinke have mirror stories, Greinke was just diagnosed earlier.

Again, I understand that in your opinion nearly everyone is suspect to taking steroids, but the evidence is quite clearly stacked against that accusation with regard to Greinke.
 
Why is baseball always getting hammered with this steroid crap? I mean its probably the one sport where you dont really need to be strong.

its not about being strong its about maintaining health and strength.

An example I heard, Take a pitcher who starts 35 games in 1 season.

That pitcher, who is not on roids, will feel really good for 17 of those starts.

Now tka the pitcher, who is now on roids, will feel really good for 30 of those starts.

It helps the body from recover from the everyday knicks and bruises and will keep players who are on roids will feel "fresh" for 130 games instead of 95 games.
 
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