Liberal vs. Conservative

Which statement would you agree with most?

  • I tend to lean more towards the conservative view on issues.

    Votes: 58 27.8%
  • I tend to lean more towards the liberal view on issues.

    Votes: 94 45.0%
  • I don't really associate myself with being either a C or L

    Votes: 40 19.1%
  • I'm too jaded or distinterested about politics to care.

    Votes: 17 8.1%

  • Total voters
    209
Biglu,

I would like to agree with you about JK, but his history of voting just doesn't make him the type of guy to get involved with any type of war. Another thing, why don't I give you my address and you can start sending money to me. That way, when, Jk is elected you will be used to sending more money for taxes;) .
I am not a big supporter of Bush. Once he started this censorship issue with Stern, his mixture of religion and state and his poor imigration policies, he lost my support. But, his priority is the removal/slowing down terror and I believe in that.

Ranger:glugglug:
 
Its easy to decide who to elect. I myself have friends and family in Iraq.

Fact 1...We have US soldiers there, doesnt matter if its right or wrong.

Fact 2...They need proper funding so they can have armor and weapons

Fact 3...John Kerry voted against this funding which means he doesnt give a rats ass if my friends and family die

Conclusion...I will vote for Bush
 
I don't really care about politics, but I don't like Bush or Kerry, but if I gotta make a decision it would have to be Bush.
 
....which means he doesnt give a rats ass if my friends and family die

Um... and the guy who´s responsible for bringing them where they are now and who started the entire thing in the first place does?
 
Camelot said:
Its easy to decide who to elect. I myself have friends and family in Iraq.

Fact 1...We have US soldiers there, doesnt matter if its right or wrong.

Fact 2...They need proper funding so they can have armor and weapons

Fact 3...John Kerry voted against this funding which means he doesnt give a rats ass if my friends and family die

Conclusion...I will vote for Bush
Kerry voted for a bill that would have funded the troops by partially rescinding Bush's high-income tax cuts. He voted against a bill that would have funded the troops by adding to the deficit, because he knew it would pass anyway.

Seriously, think about it: One candidate volunteered for the Navy, and specifically requested duty in Vietnam, where he commanded a boat that cruised up and down a river with the purpose of drawing enemy fire. The other had his dad's friends pull strings and get him into the Texas Air National Guard so he could spend all day playing pool volleyball. Which one do you really think understands the situation our troops in Iraq are in?
 
I hope youre not building up the same John Kerry who received 3 purple hearts, yet never missed a day of combat. Thanks to.....the Kennedy Family. One of the wounds his commanding officer said was no worse than a paper cut and didnt think Kerry deserved a purple heart. Yet Mr Kerry petitioned for it...what a jackass. Then he pretends to throw them away and says there arent any troops still in Nam. Yet there was. Thanks for turning your back on us John. Kerry and Fonda for President 04...Bring back the red in the Vietnamese flag.
 
Inspector_XXX,

I follow your opinion of women, but with this discussion, we go our separate ways. No big deal, this is a free speech/thought forum.

Bush was a fighter pilot. He was in the pool that wasn't very big. And, if you recall, fighter pilots were in high demand during that war. So he could have been called any day.

People including Terry McLaughlin and JK just scoff at the fact that he was in the Reserve. Tell that to the families of the dead Reservist in Iraq.

His priority is my priority...........keep terriorist at bay. Check out what could have happened in Jordan. These dudes are sick.

Ranger:hatsoff:
 
Ranger said:
Inspector_XXX,

I follow your opinion of women, but with this discussion, we go our separate ways. No big deal, this is a free speech/thought forum.

Bush was a fighter pilot. He was in the pool that wasn't very big. And, if you recall, fighter pilots were in high demand during that war. So he could have been called any day.

People including Terry McLaughlin and JK just scoff at the fact that he was in the Reserve. Tell that to the families of the dead Reservist in Iraq.

Keep in mind that the post you're responding to was directed at Camelot's earlier statement that John Kerry "doesn't give a rat's ass" about the troops in Iraq.

Today's National Guard is indeed performing heroic service in Iraq. But that simply wasn't the case in Vietnam. At the time it was well-known that the Guard was the place to be if you didn't want to get sent to Vietnam. Bush in fact explicitly checked a box that said he didn't volunteer for overseas duty. I don't think I do any dishonor to the current Guardsmen when I say that Bush was using the Guard as a way to avoid going to Vietnam. Kerry, on the other hand, wrote a letter to the Chief of Naval Personnel explicitly requesting to serve on a Swift boat in Vietnam, exactly the assignment he was given.

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to crucify Bush on the National Guard thing. The story of his life, as he's presented it, is that he screwed around when he was in his 20s and early 30s, but later on he got a second chance, got his shit together, and made something of himself. That's fine and I have no problem with it. Hell, I wasn't all that productive in my 20s either and I'm sure a lot of people could say the same. So fine, I'm willing to say that Bush was kind of a screwup early in his life and leave it at that.

But it amazes me, then, to see all these prominent Republicans and Bush supporters like Dick Cheney, Karen Hughes, and our good friend Camelot here on this board trying to imply that we should all be outraged by what John Kerry did when he was at that age. Was it a mistake to throw his ribbons away? Maybe it was, but he had some ribbons to throw, didn't he? People can disagree about whether the Vietnam war was right or wrong, but John Kerry volunteered to go over there and drive a boat up and down a river as a moving target to draw enemy fire. If anyone had a right to protest that war, it was John Kerry.

His priority is my priority...........keep terriorist at bay. Check out what could have happened in Jordan. These dudes are sick.

That's my priority, too, but I have doubts about whether it's Bush's priority. Certainly I don't think his actions are doing anything to protect us against terrorism.

But I still like Stormy and her tits, so I hope that counts for something. :)
 
I've lurked here for quite a while. I like this site. Damn it's a good one. I've never felt compelled to post anything until now.

Now, I didn't want my first post to be on a political subject, but oh well. I would really like to know what if any effect a group of people voting for one person would have on the election.

If 33% voted for 1, 33% voted for 2, 33% voted for 3, and 1% voted for 4. Numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 represent the political parties. What would be the deciding factor?

The Electoral College, that's what. Of the three with an even number of votes, the one who is most popular with the members of said "college" will win. Period.

Our opinions don't seem matter to the Presidents we "choose" to elect. I'm only guessing here, but I'd say that out of the 100 richest people in the world 80 of them are U.S citizens. Those are the people that supply campaigns for the presidency with the money to do it. Providing that if elected, a few minor policy changes benefiting the supporters will be made. Where alse could the incentive to contribute come from?

The same goes for most politicians at all levels. Where do you think the members of the Electoral College get the cash for their political campaigns? Once they are in office they seem to do only what is required of them by law and what the financial supporters want. The rest of the time they are playing golf and living very well at our expense. It is our country, everyones.

So when do our votes really matter in a Presidential election?
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Congress

Even when the economy is down, unemployment is up, and the budget deficit is greater than anticipated Congress votes themselves a pay raise. Then proceeds to give themselves they're own little "retirement package" with our tax dollars. All this after making our Social Security a part of general funds leaving it open to plunder by congress itself. Real good mathemeticians they are, right!

Where's the accountability and who's doing the accounting?
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On current government leadership.

Since we've all decided to play follow the leader and be sheep in the herd. I'll comment on the current government. I don't like it, plain and simple. It doesn't matter who's running it. It's just too big for it's britches. Since I have to live with it I make sure to keep up with it as much as I'm allowed too. Yet another thing I don't like, but I digress.

It's strange how politics work. People seem to blame Bush for the Enron debacle, yet, it occurred during the Clinton administration and fell apart under Bush.

Bush is blamed for the economy, yet, it was going head over heels at the end of the Clinton administration after ridiculous growth in the stock market which was fueled by speculation rather than earnings growth. When the Feds stepped in to stop the explosive growth in the market, it jacked interest rates way up and killed the small real growth that was actually going on across the broader sector and created a wave of layoffs that somehow became Bush's fault.

After years of saber rattling and tossing a few missles at Osama, we manage to piss him off and we get 9/11. Bush reacts by starting to cut some of the terrorist roots. Suddenly he is a war monger? The entire world knows that Iraq was a source of funding for terrorists.Especially those that attempted to harm the U.S. because Saddam perceived us as enemies. We all know that he had weapons programs and David Kay just reported they were ongoing. Bush clearly, was given the same info as his predecessors and he chose to act upon it rather than to make empty threats.

His opponents cry about how our allies don't love us anymore. Anyone that has spent much time overseas will most likely tell you that our successes since the second world war are greatly resented and our "friends" often have done everything they could possibly do to undermine our positions and give tacit support to those that would wish to cause us harm.

It is not coincidence that Chirac considered Saddam a friend and no coincidence that France did so much business with Iraq as did Germany and Russia. Hmmm, two of those have been our enemy throughout much of the prior century and the other has resented us tremendously as it owes its current existence to us.

Playing the political game nicely and allowing them to walk all over us makes us chumps, not smart guys. We have been one of the protectors of freedom of this world for the last 90 years, I think we have the right to protect ourselves when we feel the need instead of rushing to the aid of those that could not/cannot.

I don't particularly like Bush, but, compared to those whining weenies that would give our soul away to be liked by the frick'n French and Kofi Anan, I would vote for him about 20 million times if the local ballot box would hold them.

When someone such as Kerry campaigns for a 50 cent per gallon increase in tax on gasoline, and, then turns around and tells people he would reduce the price of gasoline, it neither makes him liberal or conservative even though he would appear to have espoused both sides. Hell, He even voted for both sides when it came time to make a decision concerning Iraq.

It simply makes him a friggin' idiot with no beliefs other than what he feels serves him best politically.

I voted for the guy that I thought would do the best job for the country as a whole. It's been awhile since the democrats have chosen someone that I thought had the balls to do that. I don't think Bush even farts without daddy's approval though, maybe Sr.'s the only reason we aren't overrun with terrorists. Who really knows.

Words in the United Nations are great, but there are far too many that want a piece of our Rock and I prefer to give them a little lead and maybe a daisy cutter or two rather than rolling over and giving them what our forefathers have spent three hundred years building and preserving.
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On to our "allies"

Has anyone ever heard of "The Marshall Plan"?

The Marshall Plan

Yep, we refinanced the reconstruction of Europe so that the new governments would have a chance to survive and prosper and so that we would not have the choice of feeding the populations or fighting another war at a later date because the hungry turned to someone that promised them a piece of the pie.

Where are the sumbitches now when we need 'em?
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Where are the jobs?

One thing is certain. Our population is growing rapidly but the industrial base that used to provide so many jobs is shrinking rapidly.

Some of the shrinkage is due to non-competitiveness and closure of plants. Remember Mr.Clinton's N.A.F.T.A., thanks a lot asshole. Other loss is due to technology which has reduced the need for manpower or the influx of immigrants. Legal or not we do not need anymore people here. The employment opporutunities we have are few and far between as it is. We don't want more competition for the few jobs we have.

The northeast is a prime example of technology reducing the need for manpower. Steel mills used to provide a lot of jobs...a man could work there his entire career and live comfortably even though the work was hard. I don't think that is too common now.

I'd bet a dollar that every person reading this knows someone who's lost a job/career directly or not because of cheap labor becoming available south of the border. Thank again Clinton, you asshole.

The world has gone from the Agrarian stage, to the Industrial Revolution, to the Technology State. Major changes, but, the one thing that has not changed is the ever growing world population that demands to be fed. Yet, the population grows and the job base declines....this is not just a U.S. problem. It is just more evident here at this point in time.

The point I'm trying to make is, All the gripes about the government are pointless. Until we do something to make the necessary changes for our benefit, this will not change.
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Here are some final thoughts.

Americans complacency and false security is the reason that those two airplanes were not caught before the danage was done. They wanted a fight, they picked a fight, now they've got a fight.

You can be a pacifist all you want and you can negotiate peace at all costs...but that will not stop a wolf from coming around and ripping your throat apart.

In nature, stupidity is a capital crime. The sentence is carried out immediately, judgment is absolutely impartial, and there is no appeal. Humans therefore aren't natural. We try to fix the stupid.

Larry
 
There are many excellent points made in this posting. I agree with most of them, and there are a few I'd like to comment on:

Our opinions don't seem matter to the Presidents we "choose" to elect. I'm only guessing here, but I'd say that out of the 100 richest people in the world 80 of them are U.S citizens. Those are the people that supply campaigns for the presidency with the money to do it. Providing that if elected, a few minor policy changes benefiting the supporters will be made. Where alse could the incentive to contribute come from?

The same goes for most politicians at all levels. Where do you think the members of the Electoral College get the cash for their political campaigns? Once they are in office they seem to do only what is required of them by law and what the financial supporters want. The rest of the time they are playing golf and living very well at our expense. It is our country, everyones.

So when do our votes really matter in a Presidential election?


Most of the richest "people" in the world are, in fact, multinational corporations, who have no interest in politics other than to alter or erase laws that cut into their profit margins. They spend millions every year lobbying the gov't, doing everything they can to change the law towards their benefit (which is usually to the public's detriment). In election years, they spends millions upon millions trying to get "their people" elected or trying to defeat any candidate that stands in their way. There is way too much money in US politics; it's by far the the biggest flaw in the system. The political parties benefit because the money helps them keep their stranglehold of power and deny any "third party" from gaining prominance. Remember, most of these corporations are giving millions to both parties, so neither party wants to get the money out of the system. The Republicans certainly don't; the Dems say they do but are lying. McCain may have been serious, it's hard to say for sure.... we'll never know as the GOP has done a fine job of muzzling him since Bush took office.

Even when the economy is down, unemployment is up, and the budget deficit is greater than anticipated Congress votes themselves a pay raise. Then proceeds to give themselves they're own little "retirement package" with our tax dollars. All this after making our Social Security a part of general funds leaving it open to plunder by congress itself. Real good mathemeticians they are, right!

You wouldn't believe how many times someone tries to add on a pay raise onto a bill that concerns a completely unrelated issue! Corporations also try to get tax cuts (for themselves, of course) added onto to bills that have nothing to do with them. It's called "pork barreling," and IMO is the SECOND biggest problem in US politics.

After years of saber rattling and tossing a few missles at Osama, we manage to piss him off and we get 9/11. Bush reacts by starting to cut some of the terrorist roots. Suddenly he is a war monger? The entire world knows that Iraq was a source of funding for terrorists.Especially those that attempted to harm the U.S. because Saddam perceived us as enemies. We all know that he had weapons programs and David Kay just reported they were ongoing. Bush clearly, was given the same info as his predecessors and he chose to act upon it rather than to make empty threats.

Although I'm by no means a fan of Bill Clinton, I think he's been unjustly criticized for not being aggressive enough against Bin Laden. Keep in mind, the gov't cannot wage war against anyone for long without public support. I've asked everyone that's made these charges against Clinton, "If Clinton had said (obviously pre 9/11): lets spend billions of dollars beefing up national security, lets toughen up the law to increase internal security (and in doing, restrict personal freedoms), lets go invade Afghanistan because there are terrorists there who may one day attack the mainlaind," .... how many Americans would have agreed with him? How many would've voted for a presidential candidate who ran on those ideas? What are the chances that those bills would even pass in Congress? The 9/11 disaster gave Bush the mandate (his detractors would argue the excuse) to do the things that Clinton would never have been able to do... even if he'd wanted to. Therefore, I'm not critical of Clinton on this topic. As for Iraq, that's a another issue. I was never trulty convinced on the WMD arguement, but I have my own reasons for supporting that action, which I won't go into here. Unfortunately, the US gov't has done a terrible job of managing the post-war occupation. It's obvious that they need more troops, and the gov't unwillingness to get more help (especially from other countries) has been way too costly in lives and money.

The Marshall Plan

Yep, we refinanced the reconstruction of Europe so that the new governments would have a chance to survive and prosper and so that we would not have the choice of feeding the populations or fighting another war at a later date because the hungry turned to someone that promised them a piece of the pie.


The US has done many things that are worthy of criticism, but IMO many more that are worthy of praise. Too many people forget that, prefering to focus on the negatives. When I hear people criticize the US for being the world's "policeman" (they usuallty use more derogatory terms), I like to remind them that at least the US SOMEWHAT cares about what's going on in world. Compare that to the complete apathy that other countries have about world affairs and the US does not look so bad. An example of what I mean: I think most people, at least in hindsight, think that getting Saddam out of Kuwait was a good thing. What if the US had said at the time, "OK World, we're staying out of this one.... UN, you handle it." My guess is the UN would have issued one of their famous "condemnations," and that would've been the end of it.... ie. Saddam would still be there today. In fact, the main reason Saddam invaded Kuwait in the first place was because he believed the US wouldn't retaliate. He knew the rest of the world would turn a blind eye to the invasion if the US did nothing about it. I would bet any money that that's true.

Some of the shrinkage is due to non-competitiveness and closure of plants. Remember Mr.Clinton's N.A.F.T.A., thanks a lot asshole. Other loss is due to technology which has reduced the need for manpower or the influx of immigrants. Legal or not we do not need anymore people here. The employment opporutunities we have are few and far between as it is. We don't want more competition for the few jobs we have.

As an immigrant myself, my views on this may be coloured. Nevertheless, I still believe that immigrants can make a positive contribution to the economy. At times I get a bit frustrated when I hear about illegals, since it's very difficult to get in legally and so the idea of people bypassing that process can be somewhat aggravating. However, I look at the problem of illegals as many look at the so-called "war on drugs." Adding more cops doesn't do much to help the situation... it'd be much smarter to try and improve conditions internationally to the point where illegal immigration is less attractive. That may be sound a bit unnrealistic, but it just seems like a better path for me.

As for Clinton, he was nothing more than a Republican in Liberal's clothing. The Unions, the environmentalists, and other groups that are traditionally strong Dem. supporters fought like hell to stop NAFTA, but he ignored them. When people criticize Clinton for his personal scandals it bothers me, because it distracts us the real criticism he deserves... the criticism for his policies. Believe me, I can blast Clinton for hours without saying the word "Monica" once.

Overall, these are excellent comments - well-thought out and thought provoking.... I appreciate that. As for making political statements, I keep promising that I'm going to stop, yet I keep doing it..... just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in! lol
:)
 
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georges

Moderator
Staff member
defeating terrorism is the main goal of bush, agree or not he has done a lot against terrorism.

i support him for his strong insistance and his courage to fight terrorism on all the fronts.

you can like or not like gwb but you must recognize that he fights terrorism from all his best.

regards

georges;):)
 
Thank you Georges. I was a bit apprehensive about my post. I didn't want to come across as a pompous ass. Maybe I did on a few topics. I apologize.

I don't much care for discussions on politics anymore, even though I dove head first into this one. It seems so pointless. We as a nation need to unite. We must have a discussion with our government about taxation, violated civil liberties, rights granted to us by the founders of this country being stripped, and so on and so forth. It has to stop.

Currently I fear the government and the power it has granted itself. Taking away the freedoms granted to us in the blood of our forefathers makes me mad enough to kill, and I'm generally one those peaceful hippie types.

Larry
 
no coincidence that France did so much business with Iraq as did Germany and Russia.

Yeah. And you also know, that the USA supported BinLaden during the afghanistan wars and it´s also common knowledge, that Saddam got weapons from the US. Please stay fair and dont´try to create the illusion that you´re always the good guys and on the right side. BinLaden is your "creation", now don´t blame other countries for dealing with those guys when you have done the same.

The entire world knows that Iraq was a source of funding for terrorists

So... how many of the 9/11 pilots came from Iraq? Did terrorism stop, now that Saddam is gone? You can´t fight an international organziation like Al Qaeda with a war. The guys you´re looking for are all living next door to us.

Hmmm, two of those have been our enemy throughout much of the prior century and the other has resented us tremendously as it owes its current existence to us.

Sorry, but this sentence really upsets me. This is the attitude that´s repsonsible for so much hatred and aggression. First off, you had your reasons to save Germany after WW2. Don´t try and tell us that this was just an act of mercy and love. It was a political and a strategical decision and you had your profit from it. Nothing wrong with that, don´t get me wrong there.
Then, what does that mean? Last time I´ve checked, we were still allied. We´re still part of the NATO and we´re still fighting side by side on serveral spots on earth. Germany has a different opinion about Saddam and Iraq. So? Are we ungreateful bastards now because we don´t share your points of view? Would you PLEASE allow your FRIENDS to have a different opinion, 60 years after WW2? You´re fighting for a free world, freedom of speech and democracy. So... there we go! Having a different opinion IS one aspect of the world you´re fighting for.

defeating terrorism is the main goal of bush, agree or not he has done a lot against terrorism.

Yup. He has done a lot, but he has achieved nothing. Djerba, Madrid, Iraq, the world is not safer, AlQuaeda is not weakened, Israel/Palestinia is about to escalate, BinLaden is still recodring his nonsense babblings on video tapes, the muslim world is drifting towards the impression that this entire war is another crusade and even moderate muslims are starting to hate the western world. All he has achieved is to capture Saddam, a thrid class dictator who happens to live above a couple gallons of oil.
 
coldknock said:


I don't particularly like Bush, but, compared to those whining weenies that would give our soul away to be liked by the frick'n French and Kofi Anan, I would vote for him about 20 million times if the local ballot box would hold them.



Coldknock... I'm going to have to disagree with about 10% of what you had to say. It is an ongoing point you made throughout your post that started with the statement quoted above.

:)

coldknock said:


His opponents cry about how our allies don't love us anymore. Anyone that has spent much time overseas will most likely tell you that our successes since the second world war are greatly resented and our "friends" often have done everything they could possibly do to undermine our positions and give tacit support to those that would wish to cause us harm.

Playing the political game nicely and allowing them to walk all over us makes us chumps, not smart guys. We have been one of the protectors of freedom of this world for the last 90 years, I think we have the right to protect ourselves when we feel the need instead of rushing to the aid of those that could not/cannot.


You can be a pacifist all you want and you can negotiate peace at all costs...but that will not stop a wolf from coming around and ripping your throat apart.

In nature, stupidity is a capital crime. The sentence is carried out immediately, judgment is absolutely impartial, and there is no appeal. Humans therefore aren't natural. We try to fix the stupid.




Call me a pacisfist weenie but I still think it was bad policy for Bush to shut out our allies and deal with terrorism unilaterally. Its not a matter of getting other countries to love us. Countries do not act out of love when dealing with each other. Today friendships between countries are formed within the confinds of their own self interests. Money isn't spent unless there is a larger return to be gained and in most cases help wont be extended unless there is some sort of favor coming back in return. Iraq is going to be very difficult to stabilize if the rest of the world are not involved with the process. Everything boils down to money so getting the rest of the world involved means that in return they would get to share in the profits of the physical rebuilding and the economic reconstruction of Iraq. Plus the US's decisions over the political transformation process have to be shared with that countries people as well as the the UN. This was the way all the out of control problems in Yugoslavia were resolved. The problem with Iraq is that right from the start, our current government never intended on relinquishing that kind of control instead we are keeping all the spoils. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that makes the US more of an occupying force than a liberator creating a democracy.






coldknock said:


After years of saber rattling and tossing a few missles at Osama, we manage to piss him off and we get 9/11. Bush reacts by starting to cut some of the terrorist roots. Suddenly he is a war monger? The entire world knows that Iraq was a source of funding for terrorists.Especially those that attempted to harm the U.S. because Saddam perceived us as enemies. We all know that he had weapons programs and David Kay just reported they were ongoing. Bush clearly, was given the same info as his predecessors and he chose to act upon it rather than to make empty threats.




Actually I think it is the other way around. Bin Laden, Zarrhari (problably mispelled) and other religous fanatics in the the Muslim world have been pissed off at us dating as far back as Reagan and Beirut. It was during the orignal Gulf war under Bush Sr. when they declared their holy war on us. This thing started because, at that time, we set up our base of operations in Saudi Arabia despite the muslim worlds objections. That was a big deal to all muslims because that place is considered holy land and the Koran says that non muslim armies arent allowed to enter that place. Anger over that led up to Al-Quida's failed attempt to bring down World Trade Center in 93. Ever since then they made one feeble attack after another on the US. They considered themselves as being at war with us but we didn't view ourselves being at war with them because they were seen as a bunch of annoying little thugs. Thats why we responded by tossing a few missiles instead of nipping the problem in the ass early. But like I said before it all comes down to money and no country is going to invest their resources and money in starting any kind of full scale war unless there is a serious threat being posed. I dont consider Bush a war monger because he went in and shut down Afganistan after 9/11. We were supposed to go in there and we are justified in being there today. Bush became a war monger when he switched the focus over to Iraq and started an invasion without any ample documented evidence of any weapons programs. You cant just start a war solely based on an empty accusation. Taking Saddam and freeing Iraqi's of his dictatorship is a good thing- dont get me wrong- but the way Bush went about it was suspect. Anytime you have nothing tangible to back up your reason to attack somebody it is going to be likely there was some other ulterior_ motive involved that you are not revealing. My guess is profit's the real driving reason why we are in Iraq, not charity or battling terrorism.


:hatsoff:

Ranger said:


Bush was a fighter pilot. He was in the pool that wasn't very big. And, if you recall, fighter pilots were in high demand during that war. So he could have been called any day.

People including Terry McLaughlin and JK just scoff at the fact that he was in the Reserve. Tell that to the families of the dead Reservist in Iraq.





No offence Ranger but I think Bush & his group have alot of balls to criticize John Kerry's military record or his protests against the Vietnam War. It's almost like a sick joke that Bush avoided being drafted into Vietnam and today he's got the audacatity to talk about Kerry's medals that were earned in that same war.


:hatsoff: :mad: :hatsoff:
 
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georges

Moderator
Staff member
big lu said:
BTW- Welcome aboard Coldknock.

That was an amazing first post, dude ;) :thumbsup:

agreed and that desserves a couple of beers :glugglug::glugglug::glugglug:
 
Hails

:hatsoff:
 
Thanks fellas. Intellectual stimulation is getting somewhat thin on the web these days. It's nice chatting with people about things other than nascar and navel lint. This will probably be another long one. I didn't mean for anyone to take personal offense to anything I posted earlier so I'll try to clarify some viewpoints.

Bibo,
"Yeah. And you also know, that the USA supported BinLaden during the afghanistan wars and it´s also common knowledge, that Saddam got weapons from the US. Please stay fair and dont´try to create the illusion that you´re always the good guys and on the right side. BinLaden is your "creation", now don´t blame other countries for dealing with those guys when you have done the same."

Don't get me wrong. I'll be the first to admit the wrongs of our government. The support given to the Saudi's did help Bin Laden, indirectly, but we knew it. I condemn it wholeheartedly. I don't think the U.S. govt. is blaming anyone for this mess other than the terrorists themselves. What they are trying to do is take attention away from the fact the we, the govt., had anything to do with creating it. The problem I have personally with goverments of our supposed allies is that when our support was asked for it was given 100% without hesitation. There were hidden agendas behind the decision to help but we were there.


"So... how many of the 9/11 pilots came from Iraq? Did terrorism stop, now that Saddam is gone? You can´t fight an international organziation like Al Qaeda with a war. The guys you´re looking for are all living next door to us."

You are absolutely correct sir. That is precisely the reason our govt. has instituted such things as the Patroit Act. If a person is suspected of being a terrorist or is engaging in suspicious activities they will accosted, investigated,
arrested, and interrogated until the presiding authority is satisfied. We are trying to do this without encroaching upon the rights a citizen of this country has. It is difficult and we will have problems enforcing it. It will work if we try. We will also continue to do whatever is necessary to prevent any support of terrorist groups targeting us in the future.

"Sorry, but this sentence really upsets me. This is the attitude that´s repsonsible for so much hatred and aggression. First off, you had your reasons to save Germany after WW2. Don´t try and tell us that this was just an act of mercy and love. It was a political and a strategical decision and you had your profit from it. Nothing wrong with that, don´t get me wrong there.
Then, what does that mean? Last time I´ve checked, we were still allied. We´re still part of the NATO and we´re still fighting side by side on serveral spots on earth. Germany has a different opinion about Saddam and Iraq. So? Are we ungreateful bastards now because we don´t share your points of view? Would you PLEASE allow your FRIENDS to have a different opinion, 60 years after WW2? You´re fighting for a free world, freedom of speech and democracy. So... there we go! Having a different opinion IS one aspect of the world you´re fighting for."

We saved Germany primarily because we helped to destroy it. Again I agree that there were definately other reasons for doing it. One being that we recognized that we would gain access to the technological advances Germany had made during the war. Another is that we were one of the few countries left with the resources to do what needed to be done. There are more reasons yes, and they may not have been honorable ones. The fact remains that we did do it. I have no problem with Germany in particular anyway. I apologize if I made it seem that way in my first post.

"Yup. He has done a lot, but he has achieved nothing. Djerba, Madrid, Iraq, the world is not safer, AlQuaeda is not weakened, Israel/Palestinia is about to escalate, BinLaden is still recodring his nonsense babblings on video tapes, the muslim world is drifting towards the impression that this entire war is another crusade and even moderate muslims are starting to hate the western world. All he has achieved is to capture Saddam, a thrid class dictator who happens to live above a couple gallons of oil."

I don't think that anyone can be sure of that. Certainly not us here in our homes. What we can see, if you can look past the crap spewed by popular media, is that they are afraid of us now. They are afraid because we cut the funding that they needed and we are cutting off funding from elsewhere. Not everyone has forgotten what happened to the Japanese when they decided to attack us. That is why no govt. will openely support them. What goes on behind closed doors is another matter. The Japanese were every bit as determined to win as these guys are. They just had honorable methods. Sure, we may yet see more attacks on us. I just don't see any further action being as devastating as 9/11.

Continued on the next post. 10,000 character maximum, who knew?
 
Part Two...........................................................................................

Big Lu,
"Coldknock... I'm going to have to disagree with about 10% of what you had to say. It is an ongoing point you made throughout your post that started with the statement quoted above."

Point taken sir, It was a bit harsh. I still stand behind my decision to vote for him for no other reason than he did have the cajones to act with or without the worlds approval. Mediation and pleas for mercy have brought most countries in this predicament to their knees. One lesson I would think that the French govt. should remember is that it does not pay to bargain with an aggressor. Doing that very thing was the undoing of that country 50 or 60 years ago. I do not agree with the methods currently in use by our govt. I also do not have the answer. I will stand behind it when my safety is in danger and it can eventually remove or reduce the threat so that I may once again enjoy the freedom of decades before.

"Call me a pacisfist weenie but I still think it was bad policy for Bush to shut out our allies and deal with terrorism unilaterally. Its not a matter of getting other countries to love us. Countries do not act out of love when dealing with each other. Today friendships between countries are formed within the confinds of their own self interests. Money isn't spent unless there is a larger return to be gained and in most cases help wont be extended unless there is some sort of favor coming back in return. Iraq is going to be very difficult to stabilize if the rest of the world are not involved with the process. Everything boils down to money so getting the rest of the world involved means that in return they would get to share in the profits of the physical rebuilding and the economic reconstruction of Iraq. Plus the US's decisions over the political transformation process have to be shared with that countries people as well as the the UN. This was the way all the out of control problems in Yugoslavia were resolved. The problem with Iraq is that right from the start, our current government never intended on relinquishing that kind of control instead we are keeping all the spoils. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that makes the US more of an occupying force than a liberator creating a democracy. "

I agree in part to what you are saying. We really do need the support of other countries in the political reform of Iraq. The problem lies in the fact that they already had potentially lucrative deals with Iraq beforehand. That is the biggest reason we had no support in the matter. It wasn't in they're best interest to dissolve the relationship and therefore the money. If we must foot the bill in lives lost and money spent to put a democratic govt. in place then why should we give any "spoils" to countries already indebted to us. I say just knock it off the bill and we'll call it even in that respect. Circumstances created by nonsupport define our presence as an occupation. We did not go there to take someones country however, we are there to do what we couldn't get the rest of the world to agree on, replace a dictatorship with a democracy. The reasons spouted in the beginning were b.s. You know it and I know it. Plans for nukes may have been in the works but the fact remains that none have been found.Removing Saddams ass did have the interesting side effect of cutting off a major source of funding to terrorists organizations. That I applaud.

"Actually I think it is the other way around. Bin Laden, Zarrhari (problably mispelled) and other religous fanatics in the the Muslim world have been pissed off at us dating as far back as Reagan and Beirut. It was during the orignal Gulf war under Bush Sr. when they declared their holy war on us. This thing started because, at that time, we set up our base of operations in Saudi Arabia despite the muslim worlds objections. That was a big deal to all muslims because that place is considered holy land and the Koran says that non muslim armies arent allowed to enter that place. Anger over that led up to Al-Quida's failed attempt to bring down World Trade Center in 93. Ever since then they made one feeble attack after another on the US. They considered themselves as being at war with us but we didn't view ourselves being at war with them because they were seen as a bunch of annoying little thugs. Thats why we responded by tossing a few missiles instead of nipping the problem in the ass early. But like I said before it all comes down to money and no country is going to invest their resources and money in starting any kind of full scale war unless there is a serious threat being posed. I dont consider Bush a war monger because he went in and shut down Afganistan after 9/11. We were supposed to go in there and we are justified in being there today. Bush became a war monger when he switched the focus over to Iraq and started an invasion without any ample documented evidence of any weapons programs. You cant just start a war solely based on an empty accusation. Taking Saddam and freeing Iraqi's of his dictatorship is a good thing- dont get me wrong- but the way Bush went about it was suspect. Anytime you have nothing tangible to back up your reason to attack somebody it is going to be likely there was some other ulterior_ motive involved that you are not revealing. My guess is profit's the real driving reason why we are in Iraq, not charity or battling terrorism."

No doubt there was a real motive. As I said before I don't agree with the publicized notion that we attacked because of a direct threat from Iraq itself. That's hogwash spewed by the white house and spread by the media. We all know that it was done primarily to stop him from giving any more support to terrorists. That alone isn't justification for a full scale invasion. But when you mention weapons of mass destruction and the possibility that they might exist you have all the support you could ask for from the sheep here in this country. That's the political game being played there. "But they could have had them. We didn't know for sure until we looked for ourselves." Still no reason for what has been done but the outcome is headed in the right direction. Now if we could only get our "allies" to support the hopeful outcome.

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While I do not condone the methods used by the U.S. government I have to support the hopeful outcome. War is never pretty, it isn't fair, and it isn't always in everyones best interests. All we can really wish for is that the end come swiftly, the outcome be just and with as little bloodshed as possible.

Larry
 
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