Legalizing marijuana could help California get out of debt

[Hot Mega]

Of course. People will go to the illegal distributors instead of the legal ones just because they will have to pay tax - just like everyone does when they buy tobacco and alcohol.

No, people will go to the easier, legal source rather than the illegal more dangerous one.

Who knows. Why do you go to the store to buy tomatoes when you can grow them yourself?

1.) You don't have to wait for them to grow.
2.) You don't have to hassle with a garden and all that comes with it.

Why do you go to the store to buy tomatoes when other people grow them?

1.) Convenience and a reasonable expectation they are safe to consume.
2.) You do buy them from other people at farmers markets, etc.

Why doesn't everyone simply grow tomatoes to sell tomatoes to eat themselves and sell among friends?

1.) They do and are the people you find at Farmer's markets, etc. who pay licensing fees and business tax to do so.

2.) It is a hassle. However, if you produce a good enough crop and it becomes in demand then it might be worth it to go into some small business, pay the associated fees and taxes then grow your business to what ever level you want.

The laws of convenience, profit, demand, etc. don't cease to exist just because we're talking marijuana now.

The overwhelming concern of the state upon legalizing it would no different than it would be regulating other, similar things.

Being that it's safe and that's it's large scale professional production and distribution be licensed and taxed. The point isn't to make sure the g'ment is able to tax every single instance or knock some cartel out of business.

Cartel's don't have to go out of biz..they could just become legit...that should seem better than smoking each other, loosing tons of their product to interdiction and paying for all kinds of creative ways to avoid being caught.

 

[ForumModeregulator]

No, most people will not buy from illegal sources if there is a legal one available. They do not do it now with alcohol and tobacco, so why would weed be any different?

Who knows. Why do you go to the store to buy tomatoes when you can grow them yourself?

1.) You don't have to wait for them to grow.
2.) You don't have to hassle with a garden and all that comes with it.

Why do you go to the store to buy tomatoes when other people grow them?

1.) Convenience and a reasonable expectation they are safe to consume.
2.) You do buy them from other people at farmers markets, etc.

Why doesn't everyone simply grow tomatoes to sell tomatoes to eat themselves and sell among friends?

1.) They do and are the people you find at Farmer's markets, etc. who pay licensing fees and business tax to do so.

2.) It is a hassle. However, if you produce a good enough crop and it becomes in demand then it might be worth it to go into some small business, pay the associated fees and taxes then grow your business to what ever level you want.

The laws of convenience, profit, demand, etc. don't cease to exist just because we're talking marijuana now.

The overwhelming concern of the state upon legalizing it would no different than it would be regulating other, similar things.

Being that it's safe and that's it's large scale professional production and distribution be licensed and taxed. The point isn't to make sure the g'ment is able to tax every single instance or knock some cartel out of business.

Cartel's don't have to go out of biz..they could just become legit...that should seem better than smoking each other, loosing tons of their product to interdiction and paying for all kinds of creative ways to avoid being caught.

Okay, so marijuana IS unique. I acknowledge that. I thought we were discussing all drugs. It is one of the only drugs out there that you can actually plant and grow at home, and you dont need a lab set or anything crazy. So yes, I am in favor of THIS...just not the other more dangerous drugs. I would argue that making cartels "legit" is NOT a good idea. The whole point of legalizing (as proposed by most) would be to take the power away from them. But in the end, I still see the value of the black market dominating the government ran regulation. I dont know how much the govt woudld charge for pot, BUT I GUARANTEE the big bosses would cut their prices strategically to undermine and make profit for themselves. And think of it like this...

How do the Cartels deal with competition now? They kill them off. If we started a drug bidding war with these guys, we are looking at more shit than we have now...

 

[larss]

Dont you see the craziness in your logic? "than the illegal more dangerous one". NOOOOO...You can not make PCP, or Crack any less dangerous, just because its manufactured "legally". Its going to make no difference. Those drugs are dangerous anyway you serve em up. THATS THE POINT. These drugs are unhealthy. And in the end, drug users are NOT going to buy their drugs from the government, when they realize how expensive its going to be, when their local dealer still has the same stuff at a tax free (just as convenient to get) much lower price.

This thread is about the legalization of marijuana, not PCP not crack not heroin, so why bring it up? I was not talking about how dangerous the drug is either, I am talking about the dangers of buying off dealers (criminals who are in it for the money any way that they can get it) rather than buying from your local shop/tobacconist or bottle store.

 

[ForumModeregulator]

This thread is about the legalization of marijuana, not PCP not crack not heroin, so why bring it up? I was not talking about how dangerous the drug is either, I am talking about the dangers of buying off dealers (criminals who are in it for the money any way that they can get it) rather than buying from your local shop/tobacconist or bottle store.

Because HellRaiser brought it up, and I got on a rant. sorry. And fyi and pot buying person in the US can testify that you dont go to the innercity and buy your pot from some hardcore criminal whose going to mug you...Its not dangerous at all. and thats simply because the REAL criminals are more concerned with the amount of money/product in deals with more valuable drugs, specifically crack cocaine. People are not forced into buying from a dangerous dealer. there are plenty of reliable non violent pot dealers to be found.

So to counter your argument, I am saying buying pot for recreational use from a dealer is not that dangerous at all. Its when large amounts/money is exchanging hands is when things get dangerous. And in the end, as a drug user, if I can buy an oz. of some danks from my homeboy Frank for 100 dollars, or spend 400 dollars for the same product legally, I am going to do what I always did in the past. Buy it illegally.

 

[Hot Mega]

First off, I think many forget I support drug usage...I enjoy it actually. But that being said from an experienced view point...drugs are still bad for your health! Marijuana is the ONLY drug, I feel should be legalized/decriminalized.
so just gettin that straight...when im talkin about the other drugs, i really mean drugs other than MJ...

There are many things bad for your health that aren't illegal to produce and distribute.

No there isnt. Alcohol was 1 substance. Legalizing all drugs...well that list is quite longer, and involves many different drugs that have individually unique effects. One person can smoke cannabis and drive a car. You cant really drive a car when your loaded up on heroin...TRUST ME...

You can't really drive a car loaded up on anything including alcohol. You don't really want to operate a car or anything like it under the influence of anything. What does that have to do with it?

If you drink a 5th of gin you will be or should be loaded. If you sitting around your house or yard loaded, what's the problem? You can't legally drive a car "loaded" on anything...not even cough medicine.

People who don't do certain drugs now don't do them because they are not interested in them. If they wanted to..they would...as you say below it is already easiest to get them.

Giving a harmful drug to a "professional" is not going to make the drug safer. That is my point. These drugs are dangerous. And that's why they are illegal. Is cannabis really bad? meh...not really. But if you were to manufacture ecstasy tabs and give those away...jesus christ think about the overdoses and addictions that would be seen. Easy access to harmful drugs, THATS why it would be insane. Its already easy enough to get them, making them more readily available is not a good choice.

I didn't say that would make it safe. It just makes it regulated..which can make it safer. We've seen that chicken, beef and even spinach can be "unsafe" but there are reasonable regulations to make their large scale distribution safer.

And people ALREADY have easy access to harmful drugs. A kid can go buy weed, meth, coke or anything right now easier than they can buy a cigarette or a beer.

Dont you see the craziness in your logic? "than the illegal more dangerous one". NOOOOO...You can not make PCP, or Crack any less dangerous, just because its manufactured "legally". Its going to make no difference. Those drugs are dangerous anyway you serve em up. THATS THE POINT. These drugs are unhealthy. And in the end, drug users are NOT going to buy their drugs from the government, when they realize how expensive its going to be, when their local dealer still has the same stuff at a tax free (just as convenient to get) much lower price.

With all that's known about crack, PCP, etc. now...why do people still do it and why don't the people who don't do it not do it? You can't reasonably say people who don't do it don't simply because it's illegal because we all know it's easier to score that shit now than if it were legal.

And again, the point may be to tax this stuff as we do with everything else...but it isn't a tax or bust proposition.

 

[ForumModeregulator]

There are many things bad for your health that aren't illegal to produce and distribute.


You can't really drive a car loaded up on anything including alcohol. You don't really want to operate a car or anything like it under the influence of anything. What does that have to do with it?

If you drink a 5th of gin you will be or should be loaded. If you sitting around your house or yard loaded, what's the problem? You can't legally drive a car "loaded" on anything...not even cough medicine.

People who don't do certain drugs now don't do them because they are not interested in them. If they wanted to..they would...as you say below it is already easiest to get them.

I didn't say that would make it safe. It just makes it regulated..which can make it safer. We've seen that chicken, beef and even spinach can be "unsafe" but there are reasonable regulations to make their large scale distribution safer.

And people ALREADY have easy access to harmful drugs. A kid can go buy weed, meth, coke or anything right now easier than they can buy a cigarette or a beer.

With all that's known about crack, PCP, etc. now...why do people still do it and why don't the people who don't do it not do it? You can't reasonably say people who don't do it don't simply because it's illegal because we all know it's easier to score that shit now than if it were legal.

And again, the point may be to tax this stuff as we do with everything else...it isn't a tax or bust proposition.

That wasn't my point. My point is that legalizing all drugs and comparing regulating them to alcohol and tobacco is ludacris. They all are so unique, and have different effects. And really, it would make absolutely no sense to legalize such DANGEROUS drugs, that would require so many different restrictions.

Again, Crack cocaine, PCP, Heroin, mushrooms, acid, and ketamine are NO chicken, beef, or pork. They dont just make you fat and full, they can kill you.

So lets make getting dangerous drugs even EASIER !!! great idea!

NO INCREDIBLY STUPID! Did legalizing alcohol effectively reduce the number of drinkers? Or did more people start drinking again? Did abortion rates rise or decrease after legalization? ... The users will use, but having it out there in a legal form will certainly have an effect. Do you really think the government of all entities, is going to let a product just sit on the shelf without being bought? Or do you think millions of dollars are going to be spent advertising the "newest high"? Who is going to see these advertisement? Who are going to see all these people having so much fun getting high?...which brings me to...

Think about it, do most teens drink alcohol? Yes, so they will still be unable to get these products until proper age requirement. That means all of the effort of these now legal drugs are going to be directed at ... the youth. Children are NOT adults, and they can not make informed decisions about drug usage. And they should not have such access or pressure to take them. I fear legalization would create a new wave of users the children. If you say that only current users will use, you obviously have forgotten what its like to be a young simple minded teen. Drugs are already luring enough, now you make them legal and EASIER to get...what the hell do you realistically think is going to happen? Children and teens are FAR less responsible than adults, and even the adults are going to struggle with this...I just can not see any LOGICAL reason that justifies legalizing such HARMFUL drugs. You can not just shrug it off, you have to think about it. Pot is different, but when you say legalizing all drugs, you have to realize that you mean legalizing: ALL DRUGS!!

I mean christ with this sort of logic...should we legalize stealing, because it would take away the black market, we cant stop the crime, and people who dont steal are not going to steal anyways so might as well...
God damnt im ranting again....

But I am done discussing this as it is far from what the OP started...if you wish to debate further create a new thread.

 

[larss]

And in the end, as a drug user, if I can buy an oz. of some danks from my homeboy Frank for 100 dollars, or spend 400 dollars for the same product legally, I am going to do what I always did in the past. Buy it illegally.

That's a hell of a lot of weed to purchase in one go!

I would counter your counter by saying that if you could by a pack of marijuana cigarettes from the same place as you get your normal cigarettes, all ready rolled and ready to smoke for a similar price to a pack of cigarettes, then the chances are you would go to the convenience store and pay say $4.50 for a pack rather than a whole case for $100 from your local neighbourhood dealer.
The prices should not be that different to a pack of normal cigarettes, given that growing the stuff is as easy (or easier) than tobacco.

 

[Hot Mega]

That wasn't my point. My point is that legalizing all drugs and comparing regulating them to alcohol and tobacco is ludacris. They all are so unique, and have different effects. And really, it would make absolutely no sense to legalize such DANGEROUS drugs, that would require so many different restrictions.

Again, Crack cocaine, PCP, Heroin, mushrooms, acid, and ketamine are NO chicken, beef, or pork. They dont just make you fat and full, they can kill you.

So lets make getting dangerous drugs even EASIER !!! great idea!

NO INCREDIBLY STUPID! Did legalizing alcohol effectively reduce the number of drinkers? Or did more people start drinking again? Did abortion rates rise or decrease after legalization? ... The users will use, but having it out there in a legal form will certainly have an effect. Do you really think the government of all entities, is going to let a product just sit on the shelf without being bought? Or do you think millions of dollars are going to be spent advertising the "newest high"? Who is going to see these advertisement? Who are going to see all these people having so much fun getting high?...which brings me to...

Think about it, do most teens drink alcohol? Yes, so they will still be unable to get these products until proper age requirement. That means all of the effort of these now legal drugs are going to be directed at ... the youth. Children are NOT adults, and they can not make informed decisions about drug usage. And they should not have such access or pressure to take them. I fear legalization would create a new wave of users the children. If you say that only current users will use, you obviously have forgotten what its like to be a young simple minded teen. Drugs are already luring enough, now you make them legal and EASIER to get...what the hell do you realistically think is going to happen? Children and teens are FAR less responsible than adults, and even the adults are going to struggle with this...I just can not see any LOGICAL reason that justifies legalizing such HARMFUL drugs. You can not just shrug it off, you have to think about it. Pot is different, but when you say legalizing all drugs, you have to realize that you mean legalizing: ALL DRUGS!!

I mean christ with this sort of logic...should we legalize stealing, because it would take away the black market, we cant stop the crime, and people who dont steal are not going to steal anyways so might as well...
God damnt im ranting again....

But I am done discussing this as it is far from what the OP started...if you wish to debate further create a new thread.

I revived the thread on the basis of a debate I saw on a California proposition re:marijuana.

My personal belief on the subject has really nothing to do with harmful effects of drugs, taxation or whatever.

My position is more about criminalizing personal behavior in a free society. I believe with respect to personal pleasure you allow people to make their own choices as long as they don't directly or proximately cause harm to others. That would be difference in why you don't legalize all crimes because other 'crimes' create unwilling victims.

I don't give a shit about easier to get or not...that debate is irrelevant IMO and only the province of theory one way or the other.

I don't give a shit why some people do drugs nor why some people don't. What I know is some people do and some people don't. Therefore, why are we wasting billions of dollars trying to prevent people who are inclined to do something anyway (and are doing it anyway) from doing it??? In that most cases, these people are only affected themselves.

Who doesn't know or should know what some drugs can do to you and that they are extremely dangerous??

Speeding and smoking (for example) both come with a reasonable risk of danger. There reason why speeding excessively should be illegal and smoking shouldn't be is because one can place others at direct risk...the other only places the individual doing it at direct risk.

 

[smoknn]

The thing I got tired of hearing when I was a cop was how much marijuana was a "gateway drug", because if you smoked weed, you were more likely to try other drugs. I think, for the most part, that was utter nonsense. Were there people like that? Yeah, but for the most part, the weed smokers were weed smokers.

Smoking weed, or doing any other drug, was not a matter of a gateway, it was the surroundings, in part, and alcohol was just as bad a gateway to other bad behaviors as weed could have been.

Legalized and regulated, weed poses no tremendous threat. To anyone.

Get rid of the dealers, runners, and pimps, and suddenly cops have a lot more time to deal with meth, crack, and other non-drug crime.

And I've never bought the "morals" argument. There have been prostitutes as long as man has recorded history. Jesus Christ hung out with some. There is an addictive drug in cigarettes and chewing tobacco, and in cigars. Alcohol is a mind-altering drug, and yet alcohol has become part of at least one religious ceremony.

The hypocrisy runs deep.

H

can i get a HELL YEA!!!:bowdown:

 

[smoknn]

i been smoking puff stuff..since i was 16..and i dont want none of that other trash in my yard..rather you take your booze somewhere else...fucking jerks...roll one dammit janet:1orglaugh

 

[jvice]

I'd probably start smoking pot again if it were legalized, but this prop. is pretty pointless. Even if it passes weed would still be illegal under federal law, which means the feds could still arrest you for buying/selling/using it. It also means that anyone who makes income off of it would be reluctant to report it on their taxes.

I think the bill needs to be rewritten or we should just wait until it's federally legalized.

The only way that it will be legalized federally is if it is legalized enough on the state level. Otherwise why would the feds even care to do anything about it? Only when the majority of states legalize medically/recreationally that the feds will change their ways.

From my understanding, it can only really be taxed if it is grown to be sold at a store, they will probably sell manufacturing licenses to all the major tobacco companies. Look forward to Marlboro Greens!!! There's no way a tax stamp or anything of that nature would work to tell if it was grown in or out of state, because of all the people that would grow at home.

And growing your own, just like medical, would probably have a plant and/or a growing space limitation.

Also now that SB 1449 passed here, carrying up to an ounce of weed will now just be a citation with up to a $100 fine. No record... its just like a traffic ticket now. But no traffic school!!!

I love livin in Cali!!!!!!

P.S. the feds only bust the occasional dispensary here and large grow operation... not your daily smoker/small growers. And that's only if the local authorities have a big grudge against them.

 

[Legzman]

both sides have great arguments!

 

[tannerm]

Shyla Jennings is in favor of legalizing pot http://www.tannerbucks.com/cs/spunky_shylajennings_pot/10-10-26/7.html

 

[D-rock]

There's already precedence for how to deal with this.

Theoretically if you buy the plant seeding from somewhere you pay the tax like any other plant seeds you'd buy and growing it for your own personal use would be no different from growing your own tomatoes.

You would also regulate who sells it by licensing professional growers to produce and distribute it as we do in licensing professional distillers.

Assuming somebody doesn't just get the seeds from the multitude of people that already have them, illegal or not, at best they would get money only from that one time because after that there is nothing from somebody cultivating their own seeds. This also isn't like tomatos. With pot there would be enough of a demand that people would be willing to go through the trouble of doing that where with tomato seeds they would think, "screw it I will just by more seeds or starter plants again".

Sure if there ever gets to a point where it is legalized then they could always get money from distributors and professional growers, but this also isn't like a lot of crops where a lot of process needs to be involved with it. People could easily do it themselves.

 

[Hot Mega]

Assuming somebody doesn't just get the seeds from the multitude of people that already have them, illegal or not, at best they would get money only from that one time because after that there is nothing from somebody cultivating their own seeds. This also isn't like tomatos. With pot there would be enough of a demand that people would be willing to go through the trouble of doing that where with tomato seeds they would think, "screw it I will just by more seeds or starter plants again".

Sure if there ever gets to a point where it is legalized then they could always get money from distributors and professional growers, but this also isn't like a lot of crops where a lot of process needs to be involved with it. People could easily do it themselves.

Okay...:dunno:

My basic point was simply there is already precedence in other applications and products to where there shouldn't be a dilemma for how to deal the legalizing of weed.:2 cents:

 

[Tittyman5000]

Legalize it not just in Cali, but Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, & Nevada ARrrrgHGHh!

 

[vodkazvictim]

It will never be legalised because people would grow it themselves, thus limiting revenue that could be made from it by the goburmunt!
Unlike tobacco; nobody can keep a small factory to insert all those poisonous chemicals into cigarettes in a cupboard.

 

[smoknn]

It will never be legalised because people would grow it themselves, thus limiting revenue that could be made from it by the goburmunt!
Unlike tobacco; nobody can keep a small factory to insert all those poisonous chemicals into cigarettes in a cupboard.

ever tried to grow weed??..im here to tell you....if you dont know what your doing..it will take you years to grow a joint fit to smoke...and wonder why everyone dont make beer and whiskey...ill just take a poke..could it be because budweiser and jim beam has got a hard act to follow..you guys can waist time trying to grow if you like...i would love to run to the store and pick me up a pack of MEANGREENS<<made that up :wiggle:

 

[sualcalay]

I'm actually having a bit of a hard time trying to understand how "great" that will be...to have weed legalized that is. I feel there's some collateral damage that we're not accounting for.

 

[Hot Mega]

I'm actually having a bit of a hard time trying to understand how "great" that will be...to have weed legalized that is. I feel there's some collateral damage that we're not accounting for.

Yeah, the collateral damage from all the new weed smokers would be worse than the collateral damage now.

Now that we've established that....what exactly is the menacing 'collateral damage' we are so deafly afraid of from legions of weed smokers? (The legions that already exist and causing the 'collateral damage' now...)