Israeli Attacks Gaza Strip, Killing 200+

Philbert

Philbert

Banned
Ceska said:
West Bank Population= 2,407,681 / Palestinian and Arab = 83% - 1,998,375 / (CIA Factbook)
Assuming your figure is accurate, I am sure that the 21% of West Bank Palestinians appreciate the ability to move "freely" within their own territory... :rolleyes:




The simple fact is - it is easy to be generous with someone else's property or territory taken by force. To present this as generosity, indicates a biased mindset and is incomplete and misguided to say the least.

This should be easy enough to understand by itself, but in case it is not...

If I take your house and kill members of your family (Israel 1967 6-Day War and subsequent occupation of territory), then in my abundant "desire for peace" return 15% of your house to you - I can then list the expenses I went through to return 15% of your property to you as evidence of my "pain and suffering"?? Sounds great.

If you complain that that isn't fair, I can say you have "no desire for peace" and take that 15% back and later offer to return it to you again as another act of "great benevolent concession". It's a win-win for me. That way I can gain territory and still be the victim in search of peace despite your irrational violent opposition. Sounds great.




More of the same. I have given back "part" of what I stole from you (with the intention of taking it back again?) - and dammit what thanks do I get??




thanks for the history lesson ... but is your lesson complete? I understand why a "recent" history lesson is all you want to give to make your point...but...
Is 8 years of history all you would like people to see? ... Let's review: Your lesson shows us that 1) the Palestinians shot rockets and 2) Israel gave land and made concessions. Forget the rest. Hush now. Don't mention whose land is being given back. Don't mention why the rockets are being fired (in total no more dangerous than 1 car accident). Don't mention that land is again being taken to perhaps be offered again in a great act of benevolence.


Why doesn't Israel sign an agreement to give all of the Palestinian land back and return to pre-1967 boundaries as required by international law? - after all it was taken by force in violation of a litany of International Resolutions, agreements and accords.... What is the reasoning?


(Assuming you mean pre-1967 as that is what has been asked for even by members of Hamas).

That "just isn't going to happen." That's all? Pure obstinance? Heels dug in. A willful dismissal to return to ones own borders. No justification, just simple refusal.

Unfortunately, many Israelis refuse to realize that they create their own tension and perpetuate their own negative image in the Arab world by occupying the territory of others - and when they appeal to groups like Hamas to simply "stop firing rockets in order to force us to return your land", they only hear their own echo - "That just isn't going to happen."
Click to expand...

Lets see...Major Arab armies outnumbering Israel many times in soldiers and equipment march to the attack. Israel drives them back, retains territory used by said militaries to stage the attack as a buffer zone against further vowed attempts to obliterate the entire country...no cease fires if the Arabs are winning, death for an entire country both people and territory.
You feel the Israelis should give them another chance to do it again, and should feel guilty for winning against massive combined Arab armies.

Do you have a hard time counting with your shoes on?:rofl2:
 
Ceska

Ceska

Philbert said:
Do you have a hard time counting with your shoes on?:rofl2:
Click to expand...

A personal attack? From you? How unexpected. ;)

Philbert said:
Lets see...Major Arab armies outnumbering Israel many times in soldiers and equipment march to the attack. Israel drives them back, retains territory used by said militaries to stage the attack as a buffer zone against further vowed attempts to obliterate the entire country...
You feel the Israelis should give them another chance to do it again, and should feel guilty for winning against massive combined Arab armies.
Click to expand...

You are speaking of Egypt / Israel 1967.

It is simplistic to think of security simply in terms of a buffer-zone.

The number of opposed countries in the area still outnumber Israel.
Some countries (Iran) still refuse to recognize Israel.
The citizens of some countries (Egypt) where a peace was being established and the perception of Israel was more favorable, now perceive Israel as more hostile and many now consider them an enemy.

These countries could easily see mobilization and incursion by Israel as "being on the march."
By your justification of previous Israeli actions, should these other countries invade Israeli territory to secure a "buffer-zone"?
Would that make them safer? Of course not.

Is continuing to conquer a "buffer-zone" contributing to Israel's security in a positive manner?
What "buffer-zone" is ultimately acceptable?

Given that many countries believe Iran is mobilizing (enriching uranium), should Israel seek an additional buffer-zone? Conquer Syria perhaps? ;)
Would this buffer-zone be sufficient to protect them from attack?

Is Israel safer now because of the current invasion and occupation?

Or is it more likely that Israel's continued control and subjugation of Palestinians and invasion of territory for the sake of "buffer-zone" is actually making them less secure?
 
Facetious

Facetious

Moderated
hamas using children in combat support roles . .

by itamar marcus and barbara crook, jan. 13, 2009

a child in gaza describes how he and other children are being used in combat support roles for hamas fighters. According to the palestinian child, children are being used as scouts to follow israeli movements, and as couriers to supply ammunition and deliver information to the hamas fighters.

The following is the description of the children's combat support roles, quoted in an israeli arab weekly:

"[the newspaper] kul al-arab called many gaza strip residents, to comprehend the situation of the people who are suffering for two weeks from the wild israeli aggression...

Khaled, from a-rimal [in gaza], said: 'we the children, in small groups and in civilian clothes, are fulfilling missions of support for the [hamas] resistance fighters, by transmitting messages about the movements of the enemy forces, or by bringing them ammunition and food. We ourselves are not aware of the movements of the resistance fighters. We see them in one place, they suddenly disappear, and then reappear somewhere else. They are like ghosts, it is very hard to find them or hurt them.'"
[kul-al-arab (israeli arab weekly), january 9, 2009]
Click to expand...
. . .
 
georges

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Nice post Facetious, thanks to point out who really the Palestinians are.
 
G

guest111

Facetious said:
. . .
Click to expand...


Exactly, Like i said in my first post. They have to have more options, so they dont resort to this. They have to start focusing on the next generation....Its evident enough, from this conflicts history that violence is just leading to more violence. Its not true with everything (though most things), But its definitely true on this issue.
 
G

guest111

Philbert said:
Update: Gaza by the Numbers

Israel’s Humanitarian Aid to Gaza
396 truckloads of humanitarian aid that have been delivered through Israeli crossings into Gaza since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, including basic food commodities, medication, medical supplies, blood units and donations by various governments and blood units.
80 truckloads of humanitarian aid expected to arrive in Gaza on Jan. 5
20 Palestinians evacuated to Israel for medical treatment (including two children)
800,000+ leaflets disseminated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to Gaza civilians instructing them to stay away from terrorist and weapons storage sites
70+ times the IDF warned populated areas before conducting airstrikes
10,000 tons of aid transported into Gaza at the request of international organizations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead. The World Food Program informed Israel last week that that it would cease shipment of food to Gaza because warehouses are at full capacity, with enough food to last two weeks.
0 wounded Palestinians allowed by Hamas to cross from Gaza into Egypt for treatment.


Iran-backed Hamas Rocket, Mortar Attacks and Nuclear Developments

10,000+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2001.
3,200+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza in 2008 alone.
6,500+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005.
538+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israeli territory during the ceasefire from June 19 to Dec. 19, 2008.
480 rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel since Operation Cast Lead began Dec. 27.
28 deaths caused by rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel since 2001. The dead include Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. Since the ceasefire ended, Iran-backed Palestinian groups in Gaza fired rockets and mortars that killed an Israeli-Arab construction worker and a mother of four who was seeking shelter in a bus station as a rocket warning siren sounded.
1,000+ people in Israel injured from rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2001, including Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. Since the start of Israel’s defensive operation in Gaza Dec. 27, 90 Israelis have been injured and at least 244 have been treated for shock.
20,000 Hamas terrorists Israel is targeting as part of its defensive operations
1,000,000 Israeli civilians Hamas is targeting and can reach.
15 seconds Israelis have to get to a bomb shelter once a warning siren has sounded.
8 years Israel has endured rockets and mortar fire from Gaza
3 mosques in Gaza used as weapons, ammunitions and explosives depots that were struck by the Israel Defense Forces during the operation in Gaza. The strikes occurred only at night and never during prayer times, to avoid civilian casualties.
4 UN Security Council resolutions passed since 2006 to try to stop Iran from enriching uranium.
5,000+ number of centrifuges operating in Iran to enrich uranium, the material used to produce a nuclear weapon.

What Israel Gave Up in Hopes of Peace - Gaza Withdrawal Aug. 2005

100% proportion of the Gaza Strip evacuated and handed over to the
Palestinians.
300 square miles of the West Bank evacuated.
21 Israeli settlements uprooted in the Gaza Strip.
4 Israeli settlements uprooted in the West Bank.
48 graves uprooted in Gaza’s former Gush Katif Cemetery, including six graves of area residents murdered by terrorists.
9,000 approximate number of Israelis, including 1,700 families, who lived in Gaza and the northern West Bank. All of them were moved out as part of the withdrawal.
38 synagogues dismantled in the Gaza Strip.
5,000 school-age children who had to find new schools.
42 daycare centers that were closed in the Gaza Strip.
36 kindergartens that were closed in the Gaza Strip.
7 elementary schools that were closed in the Gaza Strip.
3 high schools that were closed in the Gaza Strip.
320 mobile homes, ordered by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, to serve as temporary housing for settlers.
45,000 Israeli soldiers and policemen who participated in the Gaza withdrawal.
$1.7 billion the approximate cost to the Israeli government for the withdrawal initiative.
166 Israeli farmers who were moved out of Gaza.
800 cows, which comprised the second largest dairy farm in Israel, moved out of Gaza’s Gush Katif community.
$120 million value of flowers and produce exported annually from Gush Katif and lost following the evacuation.
1 zoo, the “Katifari,” that housed hundreds of animals and was moved.
10,000 people who were employed in agriculture and related industries in Gush Katif, including 5,000 Palestinians.
60% proportion of Israel's cherry tomato exports that came from the Gaza Strip. Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza extinguished this economic resource.
3.5 million square meters (almost 1,000 acres) of greenhouses abandoned in Gaza.
70 percentage of Israel's organic produce grown in Gaza – another economic resource lost in the evacuation.
60 percentage of herbs exported from Israel that came from Gush Katif.
15 percentage of Israel agricultural exports that originated in Gaza – exports lost following Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza.
$360,000 expected average compensation amount Israel expected to pay to relocate each family.
$870 million approximate cost for Israel to facilitate the resettlement of former West Bank and Gaza residents elsewhere in the country.
$500 million amount of money Israel's security establishment spent to relocate Israel Defense Forces bases outside the Gaza Strip and build new border crossing facilities.

After Israel’s evacuation from Gaza…

430,000 West Bank Palestinians able to move freely within and between Palestinian-controlled areas.
1 Israeli remaining in Gaza. Staff Sgt. Gilad Shalit was abducted from Israel on June 25, 2006 by Hamas in a bloody cross-border raid in which the terrorists also killed two IDF soldiers and wounded four others.
1.2 million Arabs who remained full and legal citizens of Israel. All Israeli citizens – Christians, Muslims, and Jews – have freedom of speech, religion, press, and the right to vote.
1.3 million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip many of them in Palestinian Authority-controlled refugee camps, who live under their own leaders.
820,000 Jewish refugees forced to flee without their belongings from Arab countries between 1947 and 1949, and who have never been compensated by Arab governments for their losses.
650,000 Arab refugees who left Israel from 1947-1949 and still need Palestinian leaders who will end terrorism and the culture of hate.

Israel’s withdrawal from four northern West Bank settlements created an area more than twice the size of Gaza’s 140 square miles under Palestinian control and devoid of any Israeli presence.

(I guess they got the "Israeli presence" they were hoping for now...!)
Click to expand...

I would like to see both sides of this information, this is pretty one sided. This was originally posted by www.theisraelproject.org....which is mainly US based. Obviously there could be some unfair things said. They have always been pretty hard line pro Israel (they support the wall, and the settlements in the West Bank...etc)...But, there is some good data here though..

And the list said something pretty revealing. '28 deaths caused by rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel since 2001.'

as horrible as that is...

Israel has killed 1,000 people in only 20 or so days... Is THAT really justified?

(I think if we went by casualty numbers, you would see who are the ones taking the much bigger hit)
 
G

guest111

Group accuses Israel of firing white phosphorus into Gaza
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/12/white.phosphorus/index.html


Aid worker: Gaza blockade lacks all humanity
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/12/gaza.aid.diary/index.html

Israel kills 30 civilians at shelter, witnesses tell U.N.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/09/zeitoun.gaza.israel/index.html

Israel, Hamas brush off U.N. cease-fire resolution
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/09/israel.gaza/index.html


Israel explains Gaza media restrictions
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/14/israel.gaza.media.restrictions/index.html

More...
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2008/news/gaza/

Israelis 'shot at fleeing Gazans'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828536.stm


Israel disqualifies Arab parties
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7825032.stm

Israeli Arabs torn by Gaza violence
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828118.stm


Lebanon rockets fired on Israel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7827872.stm

More..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/default.stm
 
Member2019

Member2019

"Militant"

meesterperfect said:
i noticed the press is using the term Gaza militants instead of Isreali recently.
whats up with that?
Click to expand...
Although the term "militant" has several meanings, including several official, one noun in common use does describe an activist and someone that is not a state-sponsored combatant.

That's the continuing difference here, as was with Hezbolla in Lebanon, etc... It would be like if the Libertarian party in the US decided to fund militants in Seoul, South Korea and decided to fire rockets into North Korea. The result is that North Korea decides to shell Seoul and follow-up with an invasion.

The irony is that in scenario, a lot of the media would say North Korea is justified, even though their shelling of Seoul would cause massive collateral damage -- several orders of magnitude worse than the surgical strikes Israel does. I.e., considering the number of engagements, and the amount of civilian cover Hamas militants use, it's surprising more innocents aren't killed.

The continued issue with Hamas and Hezbolla, like Al Quieda in Afghanistan prior, is that they engage in operations without the direct approval of their state. That makes them stateless, and terrorists. Otherwise the state would take into consideration the damage that would be done in a return strike, since they authorized it.

Some states hide behind that non-sense, privately approving the actions, while denying it. Lebanon is interesting because some of their state representatives are Hezbolla, which means they have a minority in their own government using non-state militants to enforce their own agendas.

As much as people complain about W. in the US, it's not even comparable to the "evil" (to use the word used against W.) that is what Hezbolla does. W., regardless of what you think went on, did seek approval of Congress for the War in Iraq, and they gave it (even without any WMD strings attached, but based on the 1991 ceasefire and other resolutions as justification -- read up!). The US then became liable as a state (I personally love the South Park episodes regarding this blame -- "we can be both for a war and against it" ;) ), so if people want to blame specific Americans instead of the US' policy, that's their decision (the US, as a state that made the conscience decision and gave the authority, is still to blame regardless). As an American, I don't like to use W. as a scapegoat any more than I did Clinton prior, it's our own, collective stupidity (which too many Americans try to backtrack on -- especially considering the attitude with Iraq in general after 1998, let alone again after 9/11). It's our state authorized invasion, and we are all accountable for it (I don't pass the buck).

The Taliban made the mistake of hiding behind their stateless "guests" in Afghanistan. Once the US named its demands, and the Taliban refused, the US weighed its considerations on what the continued rein of the Taliban meant to Al Quieda operations. At that point, the US made its decision. Blair and others supported it in NATO. The rest is history.

Offensive actions must be undertaken by a state, which is then accountable (including the US). The problem are these stateless or minority state representatives that engage in their own offenses so the state can be blameless, whether that is the intent of the state or not. In the case of Lebanon, the majority has been against it. Palestine, well, that's more interesting.

In any case, people need to be held accountable. Simply blaming Israel doesn't solve the problem. If anything, considering the moves by Israel in 2001-2005 with countless appeasement, it's no wonder why the W. administration finally said "enough" by 2006. If you think this is going to change in the Obama administration, think again.

If anything, Obama will present his terms and when Hamas and Hezbolla cross them, he will have the same policy. The US foreign policy changed after 9/11, which Obama has been very vocal in support of (while against Iraq and other moves), is not any different. In fact, this is what I love about Obama, he's a no shit shooter on foreign policy, at least what I've seen so far (his economic policies, along with those of the Republicans, is why I haven't voted Democrat or Republican in awhile, but that's another story).

I'm not into agendas and blame. I see countless statements in this thread that are 100% here, 100% there. There are countless things I don't like about what Israel is doing. But if you think Israel is 100% the problem here, unless you're talking about 1948 or earlier, I have to disagree. A lot of people like to point to 1967, but the reality is, what was going to happen in 1967 if Israel just sat back and waited? ;)
 
Ceska

Ceska

Prof Voluptuary said:
W., regardless of what you think went on, did seek approval of Congress for the War in Iraq, and they gave it --
Click to expand...

This is a good point. Although Bush has done countless stupid things, lots of people like to flippantly call the War in Iraq "Bush's War" or evidence of the "Bush Doctrine" but conveniently forget (or don't understand) that only Congress could authorize it. Members of Congress like to hide behind the "we were tricked" defense, hmmmmm.
As you correctly state, Americans are collectively responsible because they voted for their respective members of Congress. Perhaps not surprisingly, as low as Bush's approval ratings are, those of Congress are always lower. As one political analyst once said (I paraphrase) "Most Americans realize Congress is a bunch of scoundrels but when the time comes they don't want to vote out "their own scoundrel"".


Prof Voluptuary said:
I'm not into agendas and blame. I see countless statements in this thread that are 100% here, 100% there. There are countless things I don't like about what Israel is doing. But if you think Israel is 100% the problem here, unless you're talking about 1948 or earlier, I have to disagree. A lot of people like to point to 1967, but the reality is, what was going to happen in 1967 if Israel just sat back and waited? ;)
Click to expand...

I am glad to hear that you are not into agendas and blame.
Yet somehow in your previous agenda-free posts I failed to find any mention at all of the countless things you don't like about what Israel is currently doing.
Can you point them out to me please.

I also find your assessment of the tone of the discussion so far (as being so unfair to Israel) a little perplexing.
I do not recall anyone stating that Israel was 100% to blame, or stating that Israel has no right to exist and have a state. The same unfortunately could not be said for people's comments regarding the Palestinians.

No mention or concession by you (as I recall - please correct me if I am wrong) of how horrible and tragic the hundreds (thousands) of Palestinian lives lost is (as LBP and others had done multiple times regarding the tragic Israeli loss of life)

I am certain that this perhaps agenda ridden bias or blame of the Palestinians was troubling for you. I am sure you felt the need to ask simple questions as I have done such as "Doesn't Israel at least share some responsibility in this conflict?" - of course quite clearly no mention of 100% (post #381)
Unfortunately, for some strange reason, it went unanswered more than 3 times.

I look forward to your clarification and elaboration on the countless things you don't like about what Israel is doing.

Israel absolutely should not have done nothing in 1967. The threat was immanent and significant. Which really goes a long way to answering your question. The threat the Palestinians pose is not nearly as significant. (a dozen deaths in nearly as many years).

As you yourself stated, you do not like countless things Israel is doing. Meaning now. Never was it addressed or challenged what Israel should or should not have done then. The 1967 date (and the corresponding borders mentioned in the international agreements) has to do with what Israel should do now, which is stop violating international resolutions and accords which ultimately destabalize its own security and that of the entire region.
 
P

pussy+dickdenice

Re: Over-simplifications based on absolutes ...

Prof Voluptuary said:
The world failed the Jewish people, a people that have shown great restraint in the past, taken a lot of blame and been used as the scapegoat for everything.
Click to expand...

Soooo right and the world is in penance for last fifty odd years for that. It should be so. Its sooooooooooooooo rrrrrrrrrrrrrright.


Prof Voluptuary said:
At some point, people have to learn to get along. I'll criticize the Jewish state for many actions (e.g., use of clusterbombs on civilian populations in the past), but I also hold everyone accountable for what they do. I'm tired of people blaming only Israel for this load of shit that continues on. Rocket attacks will not stop and the nations where they occur, and the nations that provide them to declared terrorist organizations do not bother to even care to stop them. At what point does the restraint end?
Click to expand...

People, except the Israelites. Mainly the Arabs. Their life is not worth counting. If a dozen is gunned down, its terrorism. When it is in hundreds, bombed or machine gunned, it's anti-terrorism or war. It's written from the days of the crusades. (whisper..whisper...the region has huge reserve in oil.) The US..ah... the world thinks so. Talk about sanctimonious........ :eek:, used the wrong word.

Prof Voluptuary said:
This thing flares up every fucking time Syria, Iran and other states are able to feed in a couple thousand rockets. And it only dies down when the stockpile of rockets are finally depleted. Then we have peace for a few years until enough rockets are smuggled in again. It happens every few years regardless of whether or not Israel reacts, of which it often takes a civilian casualty or two before they do. Now I'll agree that I don't know if it's worth Israel to react, but I'm tired of the non-blame of the people who make this happen.
Click to expand...

Who said, the b@$%#&d? "The highest exporter of arms is US? Whenever there is a financial crisis, either the cost of oil goes up or a war flares up in a corner of the world?" Bull's Eye.... ah...... Bullshit.

Prof Voluptuary said:
Until people start blaming everyone involved, it will continue, regardless of whether Israel reacts or not. It will continue until everyone agrees to prevent it from happening. That's why peace is not achievable until everyone does. And the grandstanding means jack.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup:
 
P

pussy+dickdenice

Re: "Militant"

Prof Voluptuary said:
As much as people complain about W. in the US, it's not even comparable to the "evil" (to use the word used against W.) that is what Hezbolla does. W., regardless of what you think went on, did seek approval of Congress for the War in Iraq, and they gave it (even without any WMD strings attached, but based on the 1991 ceasefire and other resolutions as justification -- read up!). ;)
Click to expand...

A deed done on wrong information is right. Latest Logic. :D

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/09/AR2006020902418.html

Off topic. Get off the Board, pd.
 
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