Israel & Palestine... (Celebrations of Ariel Sharon's Stroke)

[Gordar]

Christian[/B] - you're nothing more than the spineless minions of Hell. You claim to know the Qur'an ... yet the Qur'an doesn't speak of or endorse or support violence or retribution or jihad. Your hypocrital, self-righteous mullahs are the ones who have brain-washed the masses into believing that the Qur'an is about jihad. They are the ones who have perverted the Qur'an. Have you forgotten the Five Pillars of Islam?

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but because you made the word Christian bold, I'm assuming you assume that Christians wouldn't do things like that, that Christians wouldn't blow up eachother. The IRA is a very good example to disprove this assumption.

If I'm misinterpreting your post, please ignore this one.

 

[Ax3C]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but because you made the word Christian bold, I'm assuming you assume that Christians wouldn't do things like that, that Christians wouldn't blow up eachother. The IRA is a very good example to disprove this assumption.

If I'm misinterpreting your post, please ignore this one.

Yeah, that whole sentence came out rather ambiguous and vague. I was referring only to myself, no one else.

What I had originally meant (and which several people have seemingly read something else into it) is that the "individual" who made that remark about wanting Sharon's demise to be quick is - in my opinion - one of Hell's little minions. Publicly advocating a person's death - to me, again - is just as bad as murder. Again, in my opinion only ... as a Christian.

@ everyone else:

Now ... rather than people dissecting each other's posts, looking for the most minute of things to disagree upon, how 'bout we all just agree to disagree. Some see it this way, some see it that way.

 

[Rastagir]

I think I shall play Devil's Advocate on this one. Not because it is what I sternly believe, but to give you all somethingto think about.
I think McRocket is the one who knows what he is talking about. I know that most of you mean well, by saying that celebrating the possible demise of a human being is humanity at it's worst. But, and forgive me if I am wrong, almost none of you know what it means to be brough up feeling that a nation is pure evil, and be brainwashed over and over again. Hating a nation for no other reason than "that's the way things have been" and "do them before they do you" is something to be condemned, but is very true, very real, and you have no idea how hard to surpass.
Greece has a 3000 years old grudge with Turkey (or, at least, the people who lived in what today is Greece, with the people who lived in what today is Turkey). We, through school, we are tought that the "evil" Turks always wanted to take advantage of us. We are taught that the Ottoman empire destroyed the Byzantine empire because they were "evil dogs" but Alexander the Great, who marched up until India was "a great general and strategic genious" as if he was building libraries wherever he passed....We are taught about how Mikra Asia (the coastal line of Turkey) was conquered by the "savage dogs", but we ommit that we were the ones who started the whole thing. And there are numerous such examples I can give you. And I know that we are subtly brainwashed , and I have read a thing or two about how thing really are, and know that there are no "Good Greeks" and "Evil Turks", and actually know that we have much more things in common than the ones that set us apart......but when last year I went to Constantinople (Istanbul) and visited Hagia Sofia, and saw the most beautiful church in Christiandom to what she is reduced.....I couldn't stop clenching my fists. So,do believe me, the seed of hate is planted deep. And imagine that I got pissed off about things that happened 600 years ago, knowing that I know. How can we possibly judge these people whose life is turned to hell every day they live? How can we ask them to be superior, to think positively, to forgive, and forget and try to co-exist when the only thing they got left is their hate? How can I,sitting in front of a PC, safe in my country ask those who live next to death and uncertainty to be something I know I can't be and pass judgement on them? I am only human, and they are only humans. Do you really believe that, were you in their shoes, you would reach out to the ones who prosecute you?

 

[Ludovico]

Look within yourself. Look at how pitiful and wretched and ugly you are ... clamoring for a man's death; boasting how he should die. Who are you to condemn a man? Huh? WHO ARE YOU TO SIT IN JUDGMENT OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING?!

Who are you to judge him?

In my eyes - as a Christian - you're nothing more than the spineless minions of Hell. You claim to know the Qur'an ... yet the Qur'an doesn't speak of or endorse or support violence or retribution or jihad. Your hypocrital, self-righteous mullahs are the ones who have brain-washed the masses into believing that the Qur'an is about jihad. They are the ones who have perverted the Qur'an. Have you forgotten the Five Pillars of Islam?

1. Testimony of Faith (Kalima);
2. Prayer (Salat);
3. Fasting (Sawm);
4. Almsgiving (Zakat);
5. Pilgrimage (Hajj)

Be ashamed of yourself for what you wrote, mythex ... be very ashamed.

So the muslim masses have all become extremeists?

Mythex is entitled to his opinion. We may not agree with him but look where he is from. That's the great thing about this board, freedom of speech.

mcrocket, you are spot on about Sharon, he should be indited for war crimes himself. However, at the moment he seems to be the only option when it comes to securing peace in that region so lets hope he gets better soon. I think though as a political leader this will affect him negatively with the Isreali public because now he will be seen as a frail leader. :2 cents:

 

[Ax3C]

Personally, I never claimed to know it all or know how it is to live elsewhere other than the United States of America. However, I DO know there is RIGHT and then there is WRONG.

Taking the whole aspect of geography out of it, when that statement stands alone by itself, it is one of the most disturbing, inhumane, and unforgivable things a person could ever utter.

"I want you to die."
"I want you to die quickly."
"I hate your very presence."
"I hate your life. You're worthless. Why are you even alive?"


See? See how hateful those words are? Imagine if someone said that YOU. Whatever the man's failings - whatever any man's failings - who gives another individual the right to say such hatred?

There is enough BULLSHIT in this world for us all to contend with ... why add more? Why aren't WE - Generation 'X' and younger - tryting to change the world we live ion for the better? Why are we still breeding hate and intolerance and racism and ethnic cleansing? When is it enough? Will we not be satisfied until everyone completely different from us is eradicated.

Yeah ... ponder that last question for a minute or two. All the different races and cultures are guilty of that ...

"Oh, he or she is different. They believe in some weird deity that I hate. I want to kill them since they don't believe in our god."

"Oh, would you look at this freak?! He has dark skin. Darkness means evil. I want to kill him."

"Oh, you don't understand my language? Well, screw you. I'm going to murder you in your sleep and rape your wife and sodomize her in fromt of you before I kill you."

You see how that works, people? Hatred is hatred ... you can't make EXCUSES for it.

You talk about history and how people have been brainwashed through the many millenia? Sorry, man ... today is the PRESENT. History is just that ... HISTORY. It's the PAST. It cannot be changed. It cannot be re-written or altered or erased. Why carry the weight of the burdens from THEN into TODAY ... or TOMORROW? Why? Why not try to change the path of history and make a fresh start?

Why hate? What does it accomplish?

I make no excuses for the Christians. I know that the history of Christianity is full of murder, intrigue, and blood. I accept that. That is MAN's doing ... not God's. Man is fallible. Man is sinful by nature. I can't change what happened nor can I explain they what they did ... all I can do is not RECREATE what they did and live MY life according to what my faith tells me is the right way.

As long as there is hatred and intolerance of each other - in whatever way it comes or presents itself - we will never truly be able to see peace. As long as you have people who have no qualms about posting something as vile as "I wish you would die quickly" then you will have evil on this earth. And yes, ladies and gentlemen, to say something like is utter evilness at its rotten core.

That would be the equivalent of me saying to any one of you, "I hate you just because you type differently than me. I want you to die a slow, painful death. We would all be better off without you being alive."

Maybe I'm strange ... maybe I'm the fucking freak. I dunno.

All I know is that I find it distasteful, horrible, cruel, and utterly evil.

Now ... I'm leaving this thread alone from here on out before I'm become too emotionally involved in the subject. I'm sorry, but to try and offer up excuses for it is just as bad as accepting it. Personally, I can't accept something like that. It's repugnant.

Later, people. Y'all have a good time with this one.

 

[Ax3C]

Who are you to judge him?



So the muslim masses have all become extremeists?

Mythex is entitled to his opinion. We may not agree with him but look where he is from. That's the great thing about this board, freedom of speech.

mcrocket, you are spot on about Sharon, he should be indited for war crimes himself. However, at the moment he seems to be the only option when it comes to securing peace in that region so lets hope he gets better soon. I think though as a political leader this will affect him negatively with the Isreali public because now he will be seen as a frail leader. :2 cents:

Whatever, Ludovico. I never said the gentleman was not entitled to the way he feels. I never claimed to want to censor his speech ... now did I?

Why not just ... let things lie, okay? As for freedom of speech ... no, you have it wrong. We are ALLOWED a certain level of freedom of speech as long it follows the RULES. Trust me on that mark.

 

[McRocket]

Greece has a 3000 years old grudge with Turkey (or, at least, the people who lived in what today is Greece, with the people who lived in what today is Turkey). We, through school, we are tought that the "evil" Turks always wanted to take advantage of us. We are taught that the Ottoman empire destroyed the Byzantine empire because they were "evil dogs" but Alexander the Great, who marched up until India was "a great general and strategic genious" as if he was building libraries wherever he passed....We are taught about how Mikra Asia (the coastal line of Turkey) was conquered by the "savage dogs", but we ommit that we were the ones who started the whole thing. And there are numerous such examples I can give you. And I know that we are subtly brainwashed , and I have read a thing or two about how thing really are, and know that there are no "Good Greeks" and "Evil Turks", and actually know that we have much more things in common than the ones that set us apart......but when last year I went to Constantinople (Istanbul) and visited Hagia Sofia, and saw the most beautiful church in Christiandom to what she is reduced.....I couldn't stop clenching my fists. So,do believe me, the seed of hate is planted deep. And imagine that I got pissed off about things that happened 600 years ago, knowing that I know. How can we possibly judge these people whose life is turned to hell every day they live? How can we ask them to be superior, to think positively, to forgive, and forget and try to co-exist when the only thing they got left is their hate? How can I,sitting in front of a PC, safe in my country ask those who live next to death and uncertainty to be something I know I can't be and pass judgement on them? I am only human, and they are only humans. Do you really believe that, were you in their shoes, you would reach out to the ones who prosecute you?

A very interesting post. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[McRocket]

First I want to say that I think I know what you mean. That hate is wrong. And death wishes are wrong. ANd they are. I don't think anyone here actually said what he/she typed was okay or acceptable. But that it was understandable.

You see how that works, people? Hatred is hatred ... you can't make EXCUSES for it.

You are right. No excuses. But reasons tempered with understanding.

You talk about history and how people have been brainwashed through the many millenia? Sorry, man ... today is the PRESENT. History is just that ... HISTORY. It's the PAST. It cannot be changed. It cannot be re-written or altered or erased. Why carry the weight of the burdens from THEN into TODAY ... or TOMORROW? Why? Why not try to change the path of history and make a fresh start?
Why hate? What does it accomplish?

You say this like people have a choice. If you were molested by a priest over and over again when you were little. Chances are you are going to hate that priest. You may even wish him dead. And who would blame you? I certainly wouldn't. Now I am not going to help you kill him. And if you keep going on and on about it - I would ask you to curtail it. But this person said one sentence. And considering what I assume he/she has been through and taught - I will give him the same latitude that I would have given you had you been molested.
I could be wrong. But I think that is all that is being defended here. His/her right to feel hatred or pain. Not accept it. Never accept it. But try and understand it.

You mean well with you posts here. And you are right of course. But that is in an ideal world. And you and I CANNOT know what this person has been through.
Your posts are, of course, not wrong. But they seem to ignore what this person may have went through. And that always has to be taken into account. Judges do it when they pass sentence in trials.
However, if this person keeps posting these death posts - then I am with you in saying enough.

But I look upon this person as someone who has been emotionally (at least) molested. And just like I would for you if it had happened to you. I am willing to let him do some harmless venting at the 'priest' that caused him such pain that he now feels this way.

 

[Jagger69]

Relax, everyone. The guy was obviously a troll. But....

....I am certain there are people who share his viewpoint. I personally know a number of Muslims and none of them are like that. Let's face it....extremists exist in all faiths....Christianity included. In fact, more people have been killed in the name of Christ than just about any other cause I can think of.

I hope Sharon gets better and I hope that the Middle East will one day find peace....although I have my doubts. Weird thing is....Moses is a prophet in both Judaism and Islam and, except for His name, both pray to the same God (Allah).

Hate sucks.

Just my :2 cents:

 

[Gordar]

To rastagir (I won't quote the entire post), there's a small, but significant difference between the Greek - Turks, or even the Americans - Cubans for that matter, and the Israëlians - Palestinians. The Greek people might hate (or at least dislike the Turks), but if something happens (like that earthquake a few years ago) they ARE willing to help, just like the Cubans were willing to send doctors to Louisiana when it was struck by a typhoon.

I at least have never heard of a greek or turkish person blowing himself up in the other country just because he or she hates the people with the other nationality so much.

There is of course another difference, namely the fact that Greece has been independent for the last 150?!? years and that the 'evil' Ottoman empire was totally reformed by At(t)atürk. Who knows what the Israël - Palestine situation will be like in 100 years....

 

[Ludovico]

Lets get back on track, this thread is not about terrorists. It is about Palestinian people celebrating the fact that Ariel Sharon had a heart attack.

The problem for the Palestinians is if Sharon dies then Netanyhu (sorry for the spelling of his name) might get back into power. Netanyhu's brother was killed whilst serving with the Isreali special forces on their raid on Entebbe to save Isreali hostages. He hates the Palestinians with a passion and if he gets into power the peace process will take even longer.

 

[4G63]

Why do some people hate so much when there is so much in the world to love?

I image many here celebrated when Saddam Hussein was captured, even though America put him there in the first place.

Also many would cheer if something happened to GWB.

Taking the whole aspect of geography out of it, when that statement stands alone by itself, it is one of the most disturbing, inhumane, and unforgivable things a person could ever utter.

You can't take geography "out of it" where we come from plays a huge part of who we are. Millions of Americans cheered when Afghanistan was bombed, but we didn't do much damage to the Tali ban. But schools, churches, hospitals, oh yeah we got those. We cheered the deaths of thousands of innocents.

We can't judge others from other places, and we can't hold them to our standards.

 

[D-rock]

I image many here celebrated when Saddam Hussein was captured, even though America put him there in the first place.

Also many would cheer if something happened to GWB.

Relatively few people decided to put Saddam in power not the American people. Saddam hasn't been killed...yet, and at least personally I am not going to derive pleasure from his death. Even if you think a person has to die there is a difference in doing what must be done, and taking joy in it. I can't help but believe enjoying seeing another person die is anything other than evil. I may sometimes say I hate somebody, but to be more truthful, I don't hate them I hate what they do. If I cheered because something happend to somebody it would be because I wouldn't have to worry about him doing anything destructive anymore.

You can't take geography "out of it" where we come from plays a huge part of who we are. Millions of Americans cheered when Afghanistan was bombed, but we didn't do much damage to the Tali ban. But schools, churches, hospitals, oh yeah we got those. We cheered the deaths of thousands of innocents.

We can't judge others from other places, and we can't hold them to our standards.

That's pretty unfair considering that I doubt very much the people that were cheering thought they were cheering for the deaths of innocents.

What do you use to judge people? If some serial killer gets caught down the street from you are you going to say. "Oh pour criminal, I don't know what he has been through or how hard his life has been. I can't judge anything he has done as wrong". Or are you going to say, "That guy was a despicable and evil human being". I believe at a very basic level there is a definite right and wrong, good and evil. I guess I use that to judge people by. Somebody that does something I don't like far away still does something wrong in my eyes. I may feel sympathy for people that were brought up to never really have a choice, but I also can't excuse what they do.

 

[McRocket]

Also many would cheer if something happened to GWB.

I wouldn't. If he died, then Chaney would be the Pres. And though I think that Bush is out-of-touch with reality, possibly paranoid and arrogant. I am not sure that Chaney isn't all those plus ever so slightly unbalanced.
Now if Powell were still there and next in line? Well......

Mark my words, George W. Bush will go down as the worst President since Nixon. And if you take out Watergate; probably the worst President since Woodrow Wilson (hey, any President that is openly racist is a horrible President - especially after the Civil War).
A war with no end in sight, record deficits in both trade and budget, and now bugging his own citizens without court approval.
And did you hear this guy's press conference on Monday? The guy is clearly paranoid about terrorists. Or very close to it. I did not realize he was that bad before.

Now back to our regularily scheduled thread.

 

[om3ga]

I'm not suprised at the reaction. As I recall, quite a few people were also celebrating in the streets while the events of 9/11 were shown on TV.

In all honesty, not much about the Middle East suprises me anymore (and that worries me a bit) - there is so much history of broken promises, duplicity and atrocities in that region that I feel it will take some considerable effort, objectivity and vision to reconcile Israelis & Arabs.

(then again, I never thought I'd see relative peace in Northern Ireland, or the fall of the Berlin Wall in my lifetime, so que sera, sera I guess)

 

[McRocket]

I believe it is the American propped up Israeli's that are holding things up now - though the relative lack of democracies in the Middle East is certainly NOT helping things any.
Israeli's are still too full of fear and hatred. Understandable considering most of those in power have vivid memories of basically the entire Middle East trying to eradicate them in 1973 (the Yom Kippur War). Not to mention the '48 and '56 and '67 wars. AND the Nazi's trying to exterminate them up until 1945.
I think it is going to be like this until those in power in Israel are young enough to not remember all of these horrors.

Like the Soviet Union. One theory is that the Soviet Union only lasted and was tolerated by it's people because of the horrors of World War 2 (when the Soviets lost 20 million people dead) and the Soviet leadership's promise to never let that happen again. Once those in power were young enough to not know directly of that horrible war (Gorbachev was the first Soviet leader too young to be directly involved in WW2) then they were able to think without so much fear clouding their judgements.

Just as most Israeli leaders today let their judgement (understandable - but regrettable) be clouded by the past - I assume.
The Yom Kippur War was 32 years ago. So someone who is about 40 would have few vivid memories of it. So the next wave of Israeli politicians will probably be more reasonable and less fearful then the present ones.
And then Middle Eastern peace - at least as far as the Israeli's are concerned - should begin to take hold.
Assuming of course America keeps their noses out of things and just let's things happen on their own.
And/or some kook in Iran doesn't get hold of some nukes and decides to eradicate Israel.
Or the Palestinians aren't given a nuke from Iran and...

 

[acerockolla]

i dont quite get whats with all the hubub here

 

[Rastagir]

To Gordar: This was exactly my point. If me, as a Greek, knowing that Turks are not "evil" (as some want me to believe), and indeed far from evil, and have no major conflict with them for the last 50 years or so, can still feel suspicious of them and their motives, how can I ask the Israelies or the Palestinians to start over with a clean slate when they still, to this day, perform horrible acts towards each other?
To AsianChick: You say that history is in the past and this is the present. But doesn't the past define us, haven't we built the entire morals and personalities over what has happened to our people? You, as an American, don't you cherish the freedom of speech and democracy because these very same values defined your nation? I am not saying that hating an entire nation or race because someones great-grandfather was killed by another is rational (hell, I even consider it stupid), but history should not be forgotten, or be cast aside. Sometimes it is hard to forgive and forget. I am not saying that we should not, I am saying that it is hard. Old ghosts do have some wind left in them, and even if we choose to ignore them they still whisper in the dark corners of one's soul. As I said, we are only humans, we can't be bright angels of light. We sure can try to be, but we are not.
To **********: An excellent post, even that I don't agree with your views of Islam. But the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and many of us should keep that in mind.

I think that people are entitled to be people: Sometimes stupid, sometimes afraid, clinging to old ways and valiues because they are too afraid to be the ones who do the first step over a new direction. They are entitled to make mistakes, to be mean and squabble with others, to be filled with pride, to be imperfect. Overcoming all those things is what redeem us, what gives value to our existence. But we should not judge and we should not blame people for having a dark side. We are all made of light and darkness.

 

[McRocket]

We are all made of light and darkness.

I LIKE that sentence very much.

 

[Jagger69]

i dont quite get whats with all the hubub here

Just goes to show you that all you have to do to start a war is to mention Judaism and Islam in the same sentence.