Islam in France and the rest of Europe

[grower_boy]

Last year, I went out with with a foreign exchange student from France for a short time. She was 25 and had lived her entire life in France until a few years ago. She had worked in the media in France for a couple of years, doing low-level jobs at a few TV and radio stations. Around the height of us being together, the entire Bill Maher vs. Ben Affleck debate went down. She immediately went into a rant about how despicable Bill's comments were, how it was disrespectful to her "peaceful" Muslim friends and how it's prejudice like that which makes the world a scary place. This is interesting to me because most French and other European posters I've seen here and elsewhere tend to think more along the lines of Maher.

It's worth mentioning that this girl was 50% Turkish in heritage; her father immigrated with his family to France as an infant. That being said, she never indicated any Islam in her family or heritage during her rant (only friends). She did not have any real connections to her Turkish heritage other than in her physical appearance. She herself was perhaps what you could call a very typical European liberal. She was Atheist, very pro-LGBT, liked to "go green," was anti-Bush, anti-gun and seemed to think a lot of Americans were stupid. She despised religion playing a role in politics. She was also into the whole "free the nipple" thing and said it was ridiculous she couldn't go topless on the beach. She also made a fuss when she couldn't wear her thong bikini on a local beach (a law I agree is very fucked up ) and told me how some beaches she's been to in Europe and Brazil are so much better.

So what fascinates me is this: I've noticed a trend online for years that Europeans fear Islam, especially in hyper-liberal countries like France, Sweden and Germany where there is a lot of immigration from the Muslim World. I figured this attitude was typical of the very liberal European mindset. Yet the one person who fits that mold that I've actually talked to and spent time with in real life was quite the opposite. Was this girl just an exception, or do people tend to exaggerate their fears while on internet forums? After reading through some other threads here, this is something that genuinely interests me. I'm looking for honest opinions, especially from Europeans and those from France in particular.

 

[buddyfry5]

I'm not European or from France, but I would say the fears are a bit more exaggerated online. I would think people are going to voice their fears (along with prejudices and hatred) more anonymously online than they would in a public setting. Obviously not every person is going to fear Islam, but the ones that do fear or hate Islam tend to be more vocal than the ones who don't care either way. I personally could care less about what religion you are, so you won't see me chiming in on many of these topics. Those who are fearful will be the ones making their voices heard in strong opposition of Islam. But thats just my opinion since I am not from Europe...

 

[Supafly]

There is a portion of our population here in Germany who really are into hyping themselves up into a state of fear, hate and deep concern about the supposed islamic takeover. But interestingly, this happens the most in towns like Dresden, where there are 0.1% muslims.

That is the REAL problems: The people that are into this movements do not really want to know the facts, they do not want to talk to muslims, they want to share their fear and hate as loud and aggressive as they can. And this leads to a new wave of vicious anti-foreigner, anti-refugee, anti everything-not-like-them crimes. Houses on fire, people get beaten up.

We do not have to fear muslims or anything, we need to get active against stupid haters

 

[grower_boy]

I'm not European or from France, but I would say the fears are a bit more exaggerated online. I would think people are going to voice their fears (along with prejudices and hatred) more anonymously online than they would in a public setting. Obviously not every person is going to fear Islam, but the ones that do fear or hate Islam tend to be more vocal than the ones who don't care either way. I personally could care less about what religion you are, so you won't see me chiming in on many of these topics. Those who are fearful will be the ones making their voices heard in strong opposition of Islam. But thats just my opinion since I am not from Europe...

Very good point. People are almost always more vocal online than in real life, and tend to seek out topics where they can vent about things that they dislike.

There is a portion of our population here in Germany who really are into hyping themselves up into a state of fear, hate and deep concern about the supposed islamic takeover. But interestingly, this happens the most in towns like Dresden, where there are 0.1% muslims.

That is the REAL problems: The people that are into this movements do not really want to know the facts, they do not want to talk to muslims, they want to share their fear and hate as loud and aggressive as they can. And this leads to a new wave of vicious anti-foreigner, anti-refugee, anti everything-not-like-them crimes. Houses on fire, people get beaten up.

We do not have to fear muslims or anything, we need to get active against stupid haters

Thanks for the insight! When you say people into "these movements," what exactly do you mean by that? Like white nationalist type movements?

It makes a lot of sense that it's the people in the non-Muslim cities that tend to have the biggest fears of Muslims. People always fear what they don't know.

The girl I was with was from Marseille which I'm guessing is reasonably diverse and has at least a small amount of Muslims. I would also think the very liberal attitude of such a city would play into people accepting anything.

 

[GodsEmbryo]

I have the impression the fear is more a part of the media then daily life in my country (Belgium). After the attack in Paris on Charlie Hebdo, Jihadis were arrested allover the country (read here), we had soldiers on the streets in some cities for a couple of months to protect Jewish schools and government buildings. And last year a radical muslim gunman opened fire at the Jewish Museum in Brussels killing 4. But even with these things happening it's not that it... changed things in daily life. I live near a quarter where lots of muslims live, with lots of typical restaurants and little shops. It's business as usual, no one is avoiding places or pointing fingers. same goes for my job where I regularly meat immigrants. Life just goes on. And whenever someone complains about muslims (or immigrants in general) it's the usual ones who always complained, dumbasses who talk alot and loud but have a brain the size of a peanut. The only place where I read about this so called fear is on the internet (or newspaper, television...)

 

[Johan]

What I've noticed is that the post islamophobic people are often folks who never actually met any muslims.
Fear and prejudice are caused by ignorance.

 

[Supafly]

Very good point. People are almost always more vocal online than in real life, and tend to seek out topics where they can vent about things that they dislike.



Thanks for the insight! When you say people into "these movements," what exactly do you mean by that? Like white nationalist type movements?

It makes a lot of sense that it's the people in the non-Muslim cities that tend to have the biggest fears of Muslims. People always fear what they don't know.

The girl I was with was from Marseille which I'm guessing is reasonably diverse and has at least a small amount of Muslims. I would also think the very liberal attitude of such a city would play into people accepting anything.

The biggest, current calls itself "PEGIDA" (Patriotische Europäer gegen die Islamisierung des Abendlandes) = Patriotic Europeans Against Islamisation of the Occident. There are some english articles about this, I am sure.

- - - Updated - - -

Very good point. People are almost always more vocal online than in real life, and tend to seek out topics where they can vent about things that they dislike.



Thanks for the insight! When you say people into "these movements," what exactly do you mean by that? Like white nationalist type movements?

It makes a lot of sense that it's the people in the non-Muslim cities that tend to have the biggest fears of Muslims. People always fear what they don't know.

The girl I was with was from Marseille which I'm guessing is reasonably diverse and has at least a small amount of Muslims. I would also think the very liberal attitude of such a city would play into people accepting anything.

The biggest, current calls itself "PEGIDA" (Patriotische Europäer gegen die Islamisierung des Abendlandes) = Patriotic Europeans Against Islamisation of the Occident. There are some english articles about this, I am sure.

 

[Supafly]

What I've noticed is that the post islamophobic people are often folks who never actually met any muslims.
Fear and prejudice are caused by ignorance.

Exactly

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Last year, I went out with with a foreign exchange student from France for a short time. She was 25 and had lived her entire life in France until a few years ago. She had worked in the media in France for a couple of years, doing low-level jobs at a few TV and radio stations. Around the height of us being together, the entire Bill Maher vs. Ben Affleck debate went down. She immediately went into a rant about how despicable Bill's comments were, how it was disrespectful to her "peaceful" Muslim friends and how it's prejudice like that which makes the world a scary place. This is interesting to me because most French and other European posters I've seen here and elsewhere tend to think more along the lines of Maher.

It's worth mentioning that this girl was 50% Turkish in heritage; her father immigrated with his family to France as an infant. That being said, she never indicated any Islam in her family or heritage during her rant (only friends). She did not have any real connections to her Turkish heritage other than in her physical appearance. She herself was perhaps what you could call a very typical European liberal. She was Atheist, very pro-LGBT, liked to "go green," was anti-Bush, anti-gun and seemed to think a lot of Americans were stupid. She despised religion playing a role in politics. She was also into the whole "free the nipple" thing and said it was ridiculous she couldn't go topless on the beach. She also made a fuss when she couldn't wear her thong bikini on a local beach (a law I agree is very fucked up ) and told me how some beaches she's been to in Europe and Brazil are so much better.

So what fascinates me is this: I've noticed a trend online for years that Europeans fear Islam, especially in hyper-liberal countries like France, Sweden and Germany where there is a lot of immigration from the Muslim World. I figured this attitude was typical of the very liberal European mindset. Yet the one person who fits that mold that I've actually talked to and spent time with in real life was quite the opposite. Was this girl just an exception, or do people tend to exaggerate their fears while on internet forums? After reading through some other threads here, this is something that genuinely interests me. I'm looking for honest opinions, especially from Europeans and those from France in particular.

She didn't mind going on about Americans, but defended Islam. Well that's the story. A lot of folks with backgrounds in the Muslim world still see Islam as part of their identity. Hence why a lot of "moderate" Muslims end up being apologists for Islamists.

Scientology has been banned in Germany, on the grounds that it is a cult. Islam should be banned too.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

What I've noticed is that the post islamophobic people are often folks who never actually met any muslims.
Fear and prejudice are caused by ignorance.

I've spent plenty of time in the middle east. I've also seen how hostile Muslims in Europe can be to non-Muslims.

Sort of like the Muslim "refugees" who threw Christians overboard on their way to Europe.

 

[grower_boy]

She didn't mind going on about Americans, but defended Islam. Well that's the story. A lot of folks with backgrounds in the Muslim world still see Islam as part of their identity. Hence why a lot of "moderate" Muslims end up being apologists for Islamists.

Scientology has been banned in Germany, on the grounds that it is a cult. Islam should be banned too.

She went on about Americans the way your typical liberal "snobs" do. Some of which are Americans themselves. And like I said, she got very worked up about things like gay marriage or dress codes on the beach. I don't think many people who take their Muslim background seriously would be advocating for gay rights and the right to go topless. Or would they?

You could be right that her defense of Islam had something to do with her half-Turkish background. I never asked. I just meant that her complaining about Americans was from the viewpoint of a liberal person from France, not a Muslim apologist.

Why do you think Islam is directly comparable to Scientology? And why do you support the banning of Scientology?

 

[Rattrap]

There is a portion of our population here in Germany who really are into hyping themselves up into a state of fear, hate and deep concern about the supposed islamic takeover. But interestingly, this happens the most in towns like Dresden, where there are 0.1% muslims.

That is the REAL problems: The people that are into this movements do not really want to know the facts, they do not want to talk to muslims, they want to share their fear and hate as loud and aggressive as they can. And this leads to a new wave of vicious anti-foreigner, anti-refugee, anti everything-not-like-them crimes. Houses on fire, people get beaten up.

We do not have to fear muslims or anything, we need to get active against stupid haters

What I've noticed is that the post islamophobic people are often folks who never actually met any muslims.
Fear and prejudice are caused by ignorance.

Just wanted to second this. In Mannheim a significant proportion of the population is Muslim (a quarter of the city center is often called Little Istanbul), and nobody's bothered. There was even one of those protests from the Muslim community against Islamic extermism that some folks on this board are always demanding yet never looking for.

Scientology has been banned in Germany, on the grounds that it is a cult. Islam should be banned too.

Why do you think Islam is directly comparable to Scientology? And why do you support the banning of Scientology?

In my German dictionary, the word for cult was described (in German, so I'm translating) as 'differing from religion in size'. I was pleasantly shocked, because when you get down to it that is the difference between a cult and a religion. Like islands to continents. The qualifying distinction is some arbitrary one we've created based on size.

 

[georges]

What I've noticed is that the post islamophobic people are often folks who never actually met any muslims.
Fear and prejudice are caused by ignorance.

You don't know if everyone has met directly or indirectly muslims, so don't make broad, childish and false assumptions and statements. Also think that a number folks have had a very bad experience with them at school when being younger or at work due communautarianism, it may not help to be viewed positively by the rest of the population.

 

[Chopper3000]

Everyone freaks out at the muslim thing but I have no problems. In the UK we are tolerant of multiculturism, yes things happen ocassionally but generally it is good. There a fruitcakes in this world that want to destruct rather than embrace. That is life.

 

[SabrinaDeep]

She is confused, also known as communist: she loves the free the nipple thingy, but she supports free nipple thingy deniers muslims; she is of whogivesafuckabouthumanrights Turkish heritage but she blames Americans; she is against guns, but she supports Hamas (no need to specify it in your post, i can guarantee you that she does); she despises religion having a role in politics, but she supports Islam; she is liberal, but she would love to terminate everybody who doesn't share her view. Boring.

 

[grower_boy]

Just wanted to second this. In Mannheim a significant proportion of the population is Muslim (a quarter of the city center is often called Little Istanbul), and nobody's bothered. There was even one of those protests from the Muslim community against Islamic extermism that some folks on this board are always demanding yet never looking for.




In my German dictionary, the word for cult was described (in German, so I'm translating) as 'differing from religion in size'. I was pleasantly shocked, because when you get down to it that is the difference between a cult and a religion. Like islands to continents. The qualifying distinction is some arbitrary one we've created based on size.

Great point, and that's what I was suspicious of. I don't see it fit to label one as a cult simply because it has a small fraction of the followers. Do you think the fact that Scientology is a very "new" religion could also play a role in that?

Everyone freaks out at the muslim thing but I have no problems. In the UK we are tolerant of multiculturism, yes things happen ocassionally but generally it is good. There a fruitcakes in this world that want to destruct rather than embrace. That is life.

Makes sense.

You don't know if everyone has met directly or indirectly muslims, so don't make broad, childish and false assumptions and statements. Also think that a number folks have had a very bad experience with them at school when being younger or at work due communautarianism, it may not help to be viewed positively by the rest of the population.

I agree that it's not fair to assume anyone with anti-Islam views is someone who has never met Muslims or spent time in Muslim countries/societies. But why is ok to harbor these broad, hostile views of that particular group of people? I have a feeling if someone on this forum said the same about black people, gays, Buddhists, etc. the reaction wouldn't be so positive. I understand there are more fundamentalist qualities to Muslims, but still.

She is confused, also known as communist: she loves the free the nipple thingy, but she supports free nipple thingy deniers muslims; she is of whogivesafuckabouthumanrights Turkish heritage but she blames Americans; she is against guns, but she supports Hamas (no need to specify it in your post, i can guarantee you that she does); she despises religion having a role in politics, but she supports Islam; she is liberal, but she would love to terminate everybody who doesn't share her view. Boring.

LOL, I can't argue with any of this. The Hamas thing never came up (thankfully) but I guarantee you that you're right. That would be so like her. I did find it strange that she was so adamant about going topless, and yet was so quick to defend friends who don't believe it's ok to show your hair in public. And for all the blaming of Americans, she sure loved McDonald's, was slightly overweight (a common knock on Americans her douchey male friends would make) and had a thing for American guys. Very ironic.

Do you think this type of confusion is common among European girls? She's the only European girl I've spent a lot of time with. I would imagine most have less contradictory views?

 

[SabrinaDeep]

Everyone freaks out at the muslim thing but I have no problems. In the UK we are tolerant of multiculturism, yes things happen ocassionally but generally it is good. There a fruitcakes in this world that want to destruct rather than embrace. That is life.

Erm...in the past maybe...your prime minister has built his recent elections victory over NO IMMIGRANTS, just said NO to immigrant quotas to be distributed among EU countries and he is proposing a law to freeze immigrants income coming from black market, to make it mandatory for them to wear a satellite bracelet so that they can be located at any time and to impose UK businesses to offer work to British first, before foreigners, and to fine them heavily even with prison if they don't do so.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Everyone freaks out at the muslim thing but I have no problems. In the UK we are tolerant of multiculturism, yes things happen ocassionally but generally it is good. There a fruitcakes in this world that want to destruct rather than embrace. That is life.

The UK? You were also quite tolerant of Muslim pedophile rings gangraping white children for a good 15 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...--its-time-for-interculturalism-10027850.html
A lot of people knew, but did nothing and kept quiet. They figured it would be better to be labeled a degenerate and enabler of pedophiles than to be labeled a racist for bringing multiculturalism into question by reporting these evil criminals.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Ha, Chopper3000 you can't reply to me...so you just send me a nasty neg rep.

Sorry that I popped your multiculturalism bubble dude. I guess you're similar to the folks who covered up for those child molesters all those years, so as not to be labeled racist.

 

[288gto]

Last year, I went out with with a foreign exchange student from France for a short time. She was 25 and had lived her entire life in France until a few years ago. She had worked in the media in France for a couple of years, doing low-level jobs at a few TV and radio stations. Around the height of us being together, the entire Bill Maher vs. Ben Affleck debate went down. She immediately went into a rant about how despicable Bill's comments were, how it was disrespectful to her "peaceful" Muslim friends and how it's prejudice like that which makes the world a scary place. This is interesting to me because most French and other European posters I've seen here and elsewhere tend to think more along the lines of Maher.

It's worth mentioning that this girl was 50% Turkish in heritage; her father immigrated with his family to France as an infant. That being said, she never indicated any Islam in her family or heritage during her rant (only friends). She did not have any real connections to her Turkish heritage other than in her physical appearance. She herself was perhaps what you could call a very typical European liberal. She was Atheist, very pro-LGBT, liked to "go green," was anti-Bush, anti-gun and seemed to think a lot of Americans were stupid. She despised religion playing a role in politics. She was also into the whole "free the nipple" thing and said it was ridiculous she couldn't go topless on the beach. She also made a fuss when she couldn't wear her thong bikini on a local beach (a law I agree is very fucked up ) and told me how some beaches she's been to in Europe and Brazil are so much better.

So what fascinates me is this: I've noticed a trend online for years that Europeans fear Islam, especially in hyper-liberal countries like France, Sweden and Germany where there is a lot of immigration from the Muslim World. I figured this attitude was typical of the very liberal European mindset. Yet the one person who fits that mold that I've actually talked to and spent time with in real life was quite the opposite. Was this girl just an exception, or do people tend to exaggerate their fears while on internet forums? After reading through some other threads here, this is something that genuinely interests me. I'm looking for honest opinions, especially from Europeans and those from France in particular.

everything that is extreme sucks, even extreme liberalism.