Is Bush the worst president ever?

Is Bush the worst president ever?

  • YES

    Votes: 298 66.7%
  • NO

    Votes: 149 33.3%

  • Total voters
    447
Check this out clipped from a message forwarded to me; :eek:


>>Hey guys wanna see something really funny?? Go to www.google.com and when
>>the search box comes up type in "failure" and check out what comes up
>>first! Haha i love it...but i know everyone is entitled to their own
>>beliefs!!
 
Time will tell whether Bush is the worst president ever - but he might be a contender for the title. What is far more worrying is how the US is a country where you've got to be rich to become President (or backed by rich people). It's also worrying that a nation of 280 million people can have a father as son as its presidents withing the space of 8 years - and neither of them was any bloody good in the first place. Now we have the equally damaging for democracy process going on whereby a husband and wife could potentially both be president in the space of a couple of terms.
My country drives me to distraction, it has such noble sentiments at the heart of its political structures, yet society is being represented by oligarchs, and celebrities and we only have two useless parties to choose from in a nation with a vast, diverse mix of people. Pathetic.
 
Re: New Orleans ...

So, I guess the old,weak and sick were just suppossed to heed the warning and jump on a bus?

Please. I traveled with my church group down there in February of this year to assist those people to get their lives back. I don't care how many "days you were warned", most of those people had noone to come to their aid and help them evacuate. Look at all the ederly that were purposely left behind to die. This storm showed nothing but the "new ugly" side of America.

Why is it when we invade a f ' ing country we have all the resources at our disposal immediately, but when it comes to helping out here in the USA first, we have SHIT! Why did it take three whole days, almost four, to send those poor people provisions, but the government and military can set up an entire base in a foreign country in a matter of hours! Beds, color Televisions, clean showers, hot meals, you name it.

Talk about denial.

Jump on a bus? Of course not, what's wrong with you man? It was the responsibility of the Mayor and other city officials to get those people who didn't have the means out of N.O. They could have sent buses to retirement homes and allowed them a few personal belongings to take with them. They could have done any number of things. Did they do it? NO!!! How many people died and how many now have less then what they had before because of this massive stupidity? Bush may be the President but I'm sure Nagin knows his city much better. He could have set the National Guard up days in advance for post-Katrina work but didn't.
I suppose it's an easy task to set up tents and beds in a city that was UNDER WATER!!! Where do you land a helicopter carrying food in city UNDER WATER? How does the National Guard or whomever navigate the steets to bring those people provisions if the streets are UNDER WATER? I feel sorry for them don't get me wrong but I'll play the cold hearted asshole again and say they could have helped themselves if their city gave a shit about them.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
No wonder people in America don't like speaking out against the majority opinion.

because according to you, people having leftsits/socialist views and views identical to Michael Moore's views in USA are the majority ?
 

FullMoonWolf

Closed Account
This may be the longest thread in history.
 
USA
is a World force. Deal with it.
Well that's the point, isn't it - people are ''dealing with it'' by coming to hate the USA.

Which means that, if your economy collapses into recession or even depression, which given your level of indebtedness is a distinct possibility, you'll find yourselves marginalised all over the world.

Honestly, it's not good - USA's military can't get it out of economic trouble.
 
is this a real question? of course he is....i gotta say...lincoln was the best cuz without him pro sports would suck to watch
 

FullMoonWolf

Closed Account
I guess all the innocents that died because of the USA also "dealed with it" as well, huh?
What a totally arrogant thing to say.
It will be real funny when the rest of the world stops buying anything we produce and cuts us off economically because we are the bull in the china shop. Who on earth would want to do business with us?
India's economy is the one to watch.
 
FullMoonWolf,

While there are still people like you in the USA, there is still a chance the USA will come to its senses and regain its global popularity.

Good luck to you and to all progressively-minded Americans - don't let the hawks grind you down.
 
>>> > GEORGE W. BUSH
>>> >
>>> > 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
>>> >
>>> > Washington, DC 20520
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE
>>> >
>>> > LAW ENFORCEMENT
>>> > I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for
>>> > driving
>>> > under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my
>>> > driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has
>>> > been
>>> > "lost" and is not available.
>>> >
>>> > MILITARY
>>> > I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I
>> refused
>>> > to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By
>> joining
>>> > the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in
>>> > Vietnam
>>> >
>>> > COLLEGE
>>> > I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I
>> was a
>>> > cheerleader.
>>> >
>>> > PAST WORK EXPERIENCE
>>> > I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. I began my career in
>>> > the
>> oil
>>> > business in Midland, Texas, in 1975. I bought an oil company, but
>> couldn't
>>> > find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold
>> all my
>>> > stock.
>>> >
>>> > I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart
>> deal
>>> > that took land using taxpayer money. I gave away Sammy Sosa because I
>> did
>>> > not see any potential in him. With the help of my father and our
>>> > friends
>> in
>>> > the oil industry, including Enron CEO Ken Lay, I was elected governor
>>> > of
>>> > Texas.
>>> >
>>> > ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS
>>> > I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil
>>> > companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During
>>> > my
>>> > tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in
>>> > America. I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of
>>> > billions in borrowed money. I set the record for the most executions
>>> > by
>> any
>>> > governor in American history. With the help of my brother, the
>>> > governor
>> of
>>> > Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became
>>> > President after losing by over 500,000 votes.
>>> >
>>> > ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT
>>> >
>>> > I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office
>> with a
>>> > criminal record. I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing
>> cost
>>> > of over one billion dollars per week. I spent the U.S. surplus and
>>> > effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury. I shattered the record for
>>> > the
>>> > largest annual deficit in U.S. history. I set an economic record for
>> most
>>> > private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period. I set the all-time
>> record
>>> > for most foreclosures in a 12 month period. I set the all-time record
>> for
>>> > the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost
>> their
>>> > jobs and that trend continues every month.
>>> >
>>> > I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest
>>> > of
>> any
>>> > administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza
>> Rice,
>>> > had a Chevron oil tanker named after her. I set the record for most
>> campaign
>>> > fund-raising trips by a U.S. President. I am the all-time U.S. and
>>> > world
>>> > record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations. My
>>> > largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends,
>> Kenneth
>>> > Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S.
>> History,
>>> > Enron.
>>> >
>>> > My political party used Enron private jets and corporate
>>> > attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my
>>> > election decision. I have protected my friends at Enron and
>>> > Halliburton
>>> > against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent
>>> > investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent
>> investigating
>>> > one of the biggest corporate rip- offs in history.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history
>> and
>>> > refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was
>>> > revealed. I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S.
>>> > history.
>> I
>>> > changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded
>>> > government contracts. I appointed more convicted criminals to
>> administration
>>> > than any President in U.S. history. I created the Ministry of Homeland
>>> > Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States
>>> > government.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I've broken more international treaties than any
>>> > President
>> in
>>> > U.S. history. I am the first President in U.S. history to have the
>> United
>>> > Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission. I withdrew
>>> > the
>>> > U.S. from the World Court of Law. I refused to allow inspectors'
>>> > access
>> to
>>> > U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by
>> the
>>> > Geneva Convention. I am the first President in history to refuse
>>> > United
>>> > Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election). I set
>>> > the
>>> > record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any President since
>> the
>>> > advent of television. I set the all-time record for most days on
>> vacation in
>>> > any one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I
>>> > presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history. I garnered
>>> > the
>>> > most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and
>>> > less
>>> > than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world,
>>> > the
>>> > largest failure of diplomacy in world history.
>>> >
>>> > I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide
>>> > to
>>> > simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people),
>> shattering
>>> > the record for protests against any person in the history of mankind.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I am the first President in U.S. history to order an
>>> > unprovoked, preemptive attack and the military occupation of a
>>> > sovereign
>>> > nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority
>>> > of
>>> > U.S. citizens, and the world community. I have cut health care
>>> > benefits
>> for
>>> > war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops
>> and
>>> > their families-in-wartime. In my State of the Union Address, I lied
>> about
>>> > our reasons for attacking Iraq and then blamed the lies on our British
>>> > friends. I am the first President in history to have a majority of
>> Europeans
>>> > (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and
>> security.
>>> > I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a
>> WMD. I
>>> > have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden [sic]
>> to
>>> > justice.
>>> >
>>> > RECORDS AND REFERENCES
>>> > All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in
>>> > my
>>> > father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view. All records
>>> > of
>> SEC
>>> > investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are
>> sealed
>>> > in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All records or minutes
>>> > from
>>> > meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public
>>> > energy
>>> > policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review. I am
>>> > a
>>> > member of the Republican Party.


All of this is factual and he laughs about it in front of the media

we are less safe than before 911

His whole family are the worst type of scum on planet earth

His place in hell is already set:thefinger

Caddyman
 
I've stayed out of this thread for a while, but to quote the Godfather 3, "Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in."

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that the whole best/worst arguement is best left to the historians. What is truly important to discuss is how this administration's incompetance has led us into an untenable position vis-a-vis Iran.

First to address the first part of my arguement, the incompetance. Without breaking down into a "John Kerry wasn't a good candidate arguement," let's examine the men who are currently in charge of the civilian leadership of the military of the US from the top down.

George Bush

February 1968: Bush takes an Air Force officers test. Scores in 25th percentile in the pilot aptitude portion. Declares that he does not wish to serve overseas.

May 27, 1968: Bush enlists in Texas Air National Guard. Aided by Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes, he jumps over waiting list. He pledges two years of active duty and four years of reserve duty.

June 9, 1968: Bush's student deferment expires. Bush on why the Air National Guard took him: "They could sense I would be one of the great pilots of all time." Houston Chronicle, August 1988

September 1968: After basic training, Bush pulls inactive duty to act as gopher on Florida Senator Edward J. Gurney's campaign.

November 1968: After Gurney wins, Bush is reactivated and transferred to Georgia.

November 1969: Bush is flown to the White House by President Nixon for a date with daughter Tricia.

December 1969: Bush transfers to Houston and moves into Chateaux Dijon complex. Laura lives there too, but they don't meet till later.

March 1970: Bush gets his wings.

June 1970: Joins the Guard's "Champagne Unit," where he flies with sons of Texas' elite.

November 3, 1970: George Bush Sr. loses Senate election to Lloyd Bentsen, whose son is also in the "Champagne Unit."

November 7, 1970: Promoted to first lieutenant. Rejected by University of Texas School of Law.

January 1971: The Guard begins testing for drugs during physicals.

Spring 1971: Hired by Texas agricultural importer, Bush uses F-102 to shuttle
tropical plants from Florida.

May 26, 1972: Transfers to Alabama Guard unit so he can work on Senator William Blount's reelection campaign. According to his commanding officer, Bush never shows up for duty while in Alabama, nor can anyone confirm he ever serves in the Guard again.

August 1972: Bush is grounded for missing a mandatory physical.

November 1972: Bush returns to Houston, but never reports for Guard duty.

December 1972: In D.C. for the holidays, Bush takes 16-year-old brother Marvin drinking and driving. Confronted by father, Bush suggests they settle it "mano a mano."

October 1, 1973: The Air National Guard relieves Bush from commitment eight months early, allowing him to attend Harvard Business School.

Without getting into discussions of whether or not Bush completed his military commitment, the fact remains: NO COMBAT EXPERIENCE

Dick Cheney from NY Time 5-1-04

It was 1959 when Dick Cheney, then a student at Yale University, turned 18 and became eligible for the draft… By the time he turned 26 in January 1967 and was no longer eligible for the draft, he had asked for and received five deferments, four because he was a student and one for being a new father… He told the Washington Post that he had sought his deferments because "I had other priorities in the 60's than military service."

"Five deferments seems incredible to me," said David Curry, a professor at the University of Missouri in St. Louis who has written extensively about the draft, including a 1985 book, "Sunshine Patriots: Punishment and the Vietnam Offender."

"That's a lot of times for the draft board to say O.K.," Mr. Curry said.

In February 1962, when Mr. Cheney was classified as 1-A " available for service " he was doing poorly at Yale. But the military was taking only older men at that point, and like others who were in college at the time, Mr. Cheney seemed to have little concern about being drafted.

In June, he left Yale. After returning home to Casper, a small city in east-central Wyoming, he worked as a lineman for a power company.

At that point, the Vietnam War was still just a glimmer on the horizon. In 1962, only 82,060 men were inducted into the service, the fewest since 1949. Mr. Cheney was eligible for the draft but, as he said during his confirmation hearings in 1989, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was taking only older men.

But by 1963, ferment in Vietnam was rising. Mr. Cheney enrolled in Casper Community College in January 1963 " he turned 22 that month " and sought his first student deferment on March 20, according to records from the Selective Service System. After transferring to the University of Wyoming at Laramie, he sought his second student deferment on July 23, 1963.

On Aug. 7, 1964, Congress approved the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which allowed President Lyndon B. Johnson to use unlimited military force in Vietnam. The war escalated rapidly from there.

Just 22 days later, Mr. Cheney married his high school sweetheart, Lynne. He sought his third student deferment on Oct. 14, 1964.

In May 1965, Mr. Cheney graduated from college and his draft status changed to 1-A. But he was married, which offered him some protection.

In July, President Johnson announced that he was doubling the number of men drafted. The number of inductions soared, to 382,010 in 1966 from 230,991 in 1965 and 112,386 in 1964.

Mr. Cheney obtained his fourth deferment when he started graduate school at the University of Wyoming on Nov. 1, 1965.

On Oct. 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Mr. Cheney's first daughter, Elizabeth, was born. On Jan. 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant, Mr. Cheney applied for 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. It was granted.

In January 1967, Mr. Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft.

Now does anyone else find it strange that his child was born 9 months and 2 days after the announcement that married men were no longer exempt? Still we return to the same conclusion. NO COMBAT EXPERIENCE, well there was that lawyer while he was duck hunting but I don’t count that.

To be continued…
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
still always the same blabla and whining tears from clinton, poor kerry and michael moore supporters. Perhaps we can say that Kerry so called bravery in Vietnam was a lie too? Please don't get me started with such childish arguments that Brino or Nightfly used to have when it came to GWB or Republicans when you leftist and far leftist have no good candidate for 2008.
You should know that none likes communistic/socialist politics in USA and that is easily understandable.
Do you know why many countries have a so high unemployment level and see many of their firms moving abroad in Europe of 25? Because of this stupid idea of the Europe of 25 wanted by socialists, who also said the € is a hard currency (but who will end as a weak currency and foreign investors trust more the $ or the £ or the swiss franc than the wicked euro) who also wanted that everyone adopts a constitution with laws that were not really protecting citizens interests but rather Brussels euromondialists's interests.
Socialists/Communists/Leftists/Far leftists are utopians and they are often acting irresponsibly.
 
I'm sorry georges, but I have to disagree. While I'll agree that socialist policies are not popular in the US, the laissez-faire economics of the Bush administration have caused a dramatic shift in wealth in this country. Put simply the rich have gotten richer, the poor have gotten poorer and the middle class is declining.

Government can and should implement market controls. This is not socialism it's responisible economic stewerdship. When business has no one examining the proverbial books, we see a dramatic increase in mergers which leads to less efficiency and less competition. Firms tend to look for short-term profits over long-term stability, e.g. Enron, World-Com.

The US (especially this Administration) likes to point to its historically low unemployment rate. What many people do not realize is that the unemployment rate is a very poor indicator of the "job health" of the country. It does not take into account those who have lost their jobs and do not apply for unemployment benefits, nor does it account for the natural growth in the job force. The country needs to create a minimum of 350k jobs per month in order to keep up with the growth in our population. The Bush Administration has had the worst job creation record in the last 40 years.

I don't know exactly what point you were trying to make with the Euro, but the majority of investors who trade in currency to whom I've spoken feel that the dollar is weakening, our core financials are not as strong. Many are fearful that the Chinese may try and flood the bond market with the billions of US bonds they have bought as a result of our trade deficit. Europe while not a unified pillar of economic strength offers a less risky choice. Also, as we see more and more commodities move to the Euro for pricing (there have been rumors that oil may be sold in euros in the next couple of years), the dollar will lose more of its importance.

As for the EU constitution, I didn't read it. From what I saw it was quite a large document. Simple affirmations of common beliefs and protections for the citizenry would have been more effective. But hey I'm just an American. :georges:
 

4G63

Closed Account
Bush wants an Empire or at least a Republic, with a powerful centralized Federal Government. That is not a Democracy.

No centralized Federal Government has ever lasted, especially after spending so much on War. Power needs to be given back to The States and the Executive Branch needs to be severely restrained. It's the United STATES of America, not The Feds.

If resources were allowed to travel freely on roads, rail, and boat last September, hurricane Katrina would be forgotten. But The Feds locked down FREE TRAVEL across State Lines to the State officials. Why should Illinois listen to the Feds when Louisianna was drowning? Why should Illinois keep her Men and Woman in Iraq, when the majority of the State disagrees with the "war on terror". Why should Illinois pay taxes to buy bombs when are roads are in desperate need of resurfacing, and our schools in need of books and supplies?

I call for the immediate impeachment of GWB and the succession of Illinois from the Union. And I do write my Congressman and my Representatives in the House and I say the same to them.

Iraq is in a Civil War, how can you be so blind as to think that Iraq and her people are better off? Millions dying is better than the hundreds Saddam would have killed? That's some sick math, man. And there were no weapons of mass destruction, gas is more expensive, and USA's initial attack has re-opened all the old rifts and IMO destroyed Beirut again.

America is not a slave to it's President, he is OUR employee and if this were McDonald's he would have been out on his ear by day two.
 
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I'm sorry georges, but I have to disagree. While I'll agree that socialist policies are not popular in the US, the laissez-faire economics of the Bush administration have caused a dramatic shift in wealth in this country.
People keep asserting this, but it's all based on 100% assumption. The Clinton administration actually cut major welfare and unemployment benefits in 1996-1998, many of these programs were then re-introduced and/or increased by W.

Understand it has really nothing to do with Democrat v. Republican politics. W.'s inheritance of massive negative growth the moment he walked into office and the resulting recession and layoffs before he was even in one quarter, the Bush administration had to quickly and costily increase welfare and unemployment benefits. He had to expand them yet again after 9/11. This really wasn't by choice.

Now he did eventually pushed for a broad tax cut, percentage-wise, just as JFK and Reagan did 40 and 20 years earlier, respectively. The results of this had the exact same effect that those under JFK and Reagan did. Aggregate taxes collected have increased, and it has heavily increased by almost 40% year-after-year for the last two years from high income earners and corporations. In fact, we immediately saw a rebound in the market and an increase in corporate spending/hiring when the 2003 tax cuts were finally passed.

That has allowed him to cut the deficit in half over the last year. Understand the deficit that was the result of the massive slide that started in the economy in 2000Q1, a full year before he was sworn in. The sad double-whammy is that in a recession, you not only see federal revenues drop signficantly, but your also expending more in welfare and other benefits that people don't use until they are not earning or earning as much, etc...

Now Clinton ran into it too, although it was shorter because the recession was already 2 years-old when he walked into office. That meant the economy was starting to pick up by 1994 -- 4 years later (2 into his first term). It took until about 2005 before the same happened for W. -- also 4 years later (all 4 into his term). Now we've seen a massive pick-up in these last 2 -- although I don't know if its sustainable with energy costs as well as our trade deficits.

Put simply the rich have gotten richer, the poor have gotten poorer and the middle class is declining.
Actually, inflation has far more to do with that than anything. But if you look at the statistics that the OMB has been keeping since 1971, they have a rather startling reality.

The more the high income earners pay in income taxes and businesses pay in tax on profits, the more separation there is between the wealthy and income earners. Why is that? Simple, the more you increase income taxes, the less wealth you actually allow income earners to gain, which is typically investments into more private sector jobs. And the more you increase corporate taxes, the less revenue/profit they have to expand and hire more people.

This, combined with the cuts of JFK, Reagan and W. overwhelmingly prove the fact that we are well beyond the 47% total taxation rate that Alexander Hamilton theorized would cause less taxes collected and a reduced private sector economy.

Government can and should implement market controls.
The government does. In fact, I really tire of people ignoring the fact that it was under the Clinton administration that we had companies like Enron and other things. There was so much "false wealth," "overreported revenues" and "unreported taxes" that our economy was significantly built on wealth that just didn't exist. At the same time, I can't exact blame the Clinton administration for the poor GAAP practices across the industry. But it does explain why W. really had a mess of an economy to deal with the second he walked in.

Understand the debt is just the resulting "position" of how much the government owes. The surplus/deficit is then just a "velocity snapshot" of current economy. It doesn't show the "acceleration delta" of where the economy is going. The deficit was accelerating at over $200B (negative!) in Clinton's last year in office, basically erroding the entire surplus the very first quarter W. got in.

This is not socialism it's responisible economic stewerdship. When business has no one examining the proverbial books, we see a dramatic increase in mergers which leads to less efficiency and less competition.
And, again, I would argue the Bush administration has done a far better job of enforcing GAAP and other policies and corporate ethics/law than the Clinton administration did -- largely out of the mess that was left at the end of the Clinton administratoin. Now I am not blaming the Clinton administration for it, but I am saying that the W. is doing a far better job in holding businesses accountable for their financial statements.

Firms tend to look for short-term profits over long-term stability, e.g. Enron, World-Com.
Again, you're making my case for me that it wasn't the Bush administration. ;)

The US (especially this Administration) likes to point to its historically low unemployment rate. What many people do not realize is that the unemployment rate is a very poor indicator of the "job health" of the country. It does not take into account those who have lost their jobs and do not apply for unemployment benefits, nor does it account for the natural growth in the job force.
And the same could be said during the Clinton administration as well.

Let's face it, unemployment has always been a poor indicator of the direction of the economy. Jobs are the last things to be cut and the last things to come back. It basically takes a recession (3 continuous quarters of negative growth) for jobs to be cut. Clinton had massive negative growth in 2000Q1, Q3 and Q4 -- only a slight growth in Q2. Had it not been for Q2, it would have officially been a recession before even the 2000 election. That includes eroding the surplus from hundreds of billions to virtually nothing once the Bush administration started collecting federal personal and corporate withholdings in his first two quarters -- a reality he had nothing to do with.

The jobs were cut after 2001Q1, when the recession was officially declared. More jobs got cut after 9/11. Yes, this includes 2001 April and 2001 December for me personally. I'm no fan of W. and if I didn't "pay attention" to elementary economics, I should blame W. But because I understand jobs are the last things to be cut, I understand my job loss started in 1999.

The country needs to create a minimum of 350k jobs per month in order to keep up with the growth in our population. The Bush Administration has had the worst job creation record in the last 40 years.
Of course, because his entire first 4 years, 2001-2005 were in a recession, layoffs and the aftermath of hiring freezes, just like 1991-1995 was for H. Bush and Clinton (shared almost equally).

He's also dealing with the fact that corporate ethics were totally decimated in the late '90s, but we didn't see the effects until his administration. Countless companies have gone under, loss of pensions and countless other negative results for many employees that have only added to this.

Look, you can look at statistics or you can look at why -- I don't like how much the Bush administration spends, but at least high income and corporations are now paying the bulk of taxes, more than ever before!

I don't know exactly what point you were trying to make with the Euro, but the majority of investors who trade in currency to whom I've spoken feel that the dollar is weakening, our core financials are not as strong. Many are fearful that the Chinese may try and flood the bond market with the billions of US bonds they have bought as a result of our trade deficit.
Yes, this is one very troubling aspect of our relationship with China. The American consumer should be aware that their cheap buying power is costing us our future. Both Clinton and W. have utterly failed to keep our future in mind there.

Europe while not a unified pillar of economic strength offers a less risky choice. Also, as we see more and more commodities move to the Euro for pricing (there have been rumors that oil may be sold in euros in the next couple of years), the dollar will lose more of its importance.
Agreed on the dollar, although I don't know if the Euro will be the currency of choice either.

As for the EU constitution, I didn't read it. From what I saw it was quite a large document. Simple affirmations of common beliefs and protections for the citizenry would have been more effective. But hey I'm just an American. :georges:
The problem is that you could wipe out the US federal defense budget and you'd still be left with 70% social, over 70% of those being entitlement programs or their administration.
 
Holy shit Prof, you definitely earn your nickname. Thanks for all the info, I'll try to read it when I have 10 minutes to spare but I'm busy thinking of "who was the first pornstar that I ever skipped class so I could masturbate to".:thumbsup:
 
Now he did eventually pushed for a broad tax cut, percentage-wise, just as JFK and Reagan did 40 and 20 years earlier, respectively. The results of this had the exact same effect that those under JFK and Reagan did. Aggregate taxes collected have increased, and it has heavily increased by almost 40% year-after-year for the last two years from high income earners and corporations. In fact, we immediately saw a rebound in the market and an increase in corporate spending/hiring when the 2003 tax cuts were finally passed.

This is all subjective but for all the talk about corporate spending increasing the hiring of people, I almost never see it, and it never seems to be of as good of jobs that have been lost. If were talking about how well the tax cuts help the economy then 2003 would be a good indicator of how they don't really work like some people expect them to. It seems with every new recession since the 60’s there is a little bit that is lost that isn't added back when the next recovery comes around.

Prof Voluptuary said:
Actually, inflation has far more to do with that than anything. But if you look at the statistics that the OMB has been keeping since 1971, they have a rather startling reality.

Income grown since 1970 to 2000: Pretax incomes in 2000 dollars (average income)

Bottom 90% of U.S. population
1970-$27,060 2000-$27,035 change -.01%
90 to 95th percentile
1970-$80,148 2000-$103,860 change 29.6%
95 to 99th percentile
1970-$115,472 2000-$178,064 change 54.2%
99 to 99.5th percentile
1970-$202,792 2000-$384,192 change 89.5%
99.5 to 99.9 percentile
1970-$317,582 2000-$777,450 change 144.8%
99.9 to 99.99 precentile
1970-$722,480 2000-$3,049,226 change 322%
top 13,400 of households in country
1970-$3,641,285 2000-$23,969,767 change 558%

I have a hard time believing that is because of inflation, and I don't think this is taking into account the fact Americans work more hours than they did in 1970 and have more two income households and the data is worse for the lower 90 if you don't count 1971 and 72. This also doesn't count the fact that things like cars healthcare and houses are more expensive than they have been in the past so even a stagnate income growth is a loss.

Prof Voluptuary said:
The more the high income earners pay in income taxes and businesses pay in tax on profits, the more separation there is between the wealthy and income earners. Why is that? Simple, the more you increase income taxes, the less wealth you actually allow income earners to gain, which is typically investments into more private sector jobs. And the more you increase corporate taxes, the less revenue/profit they have to expand and hire more people.

Ok there is a problem with this logic. It creates sort of an oxymoron type of situation. If they have less money to invest how come they are getting more money like you said before. You can't have it both ways. If they are really getting less because we take more then they should have less, otherwise they should have no problem paying out that enormous increase in income compared to everybody else that they have been getting for the last 30+ years. They have more than enough to put back into the economy more than they ever have before yet they get more tax breaks.

Even that doesn't take into account things like globalization. I hope they never figure out that when they need to go back to hiring workers because of more investments they could just go to other countries for pennies on the dollar. We would be screwed then.....oh wait.

Prof Voluptuary said:
Look, you can look at statistics or you can look at why -- I don't like how much the Bush administration spends, but at least high income and corporations are now paying the bulk of taxes, more than ever before!

I agree that they pay a disproportion amount of federal and maybe state income, but when you take into account all taxes that are paid the rich don't pay as much more per dollar than most people think. They pay a lot more total because they have a lot more money. To be fair they should still pay a lot more than they do because when they go to the store it’s not like they have to pay $1,000 for a loaf of bread because they make more. The cost of living is about where ours are minus the luxuries..
 
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