Is Bush the worst president ever?

Is Bush the worst president ever?

  • YES

    Votes: 298 66.7%
  • NO

    Votes: 149 33.3%

  • Total voters
    447
Gentlemen,

One final note before I haul my carcass off to bed:

I'm simply curious to know what georges means by "American". I've often read his posts stating that a certain PoV is "unAmerican" or that "unAmericanism as an attitude is unacceptable". These maynot be his exact words - but I trust y'all will lend an old coot like myself some leeway.

In anycase, I am not interested in georges' ancestry nor his current "citizenship status" or residence. I'm interested solely in my question: "can you define what is "American" for me please?"


cheers,

Hi Rougneck

I will answer your question as best as possible. Fox openly criticizes, blames and sometimes insults people who have sacrified their life for America because they believed that what they did was right. Fox openly criticizes people who are patriotic and who supports their troops. Everyone who is born in the USA is American by default, but Fox wasn't born in the USA and he received his American citizenship some time ago. When you receive a citizenship from a country where You Migrated in, you are thankful and you honor the country that gave you this citizenship. But insulting people who died for this country or involved themselves in actions that they thought was good, is disrespectful, scornful and disruptive. At last but not least, when I say someone is un American, it is mainly because of his sympathy for socialist and communist views and policies that have never been accepted nor liked in USA.
One should always remember how many people died under the communistic stalinian regime or under the causcescu regime or under mao. At last but not least, Fox has a sympathy for Cuba which is a communistic regime. Fox is a good guy but his political views are not fitting my bill.
What I said is that "Anti Americanism is unacceptable" it is the same thing with antisemitism, racism against other people from other races and religion.
Hope my answer answers your question.

sincere regards

georges
 
He is European. He's French, I think. He lives in France. But he's very, very atypical French, I think it's fair to say. I've met a lot of Frenchmen and none with the same views as Georges. Georges views are very much aligned with right wing America, more than anything distinctly European, I think it's fair to say. He also doesn't like me very much. And I'm jealous that he gets to live in France as I love it there :) :georges:

Who said that I don't like you very much???? Please never say false statements and don't try to put words into my mouths when I have never said anything like such. I have no problems with you but I don't like your political views.
I am not atypical, it is tha fact that I can think by own my ownself and that I am not brainwashed by the french press which is full of shit, hypocrisy, blind hatred and moronism against America, Israel and many other matters.
The French people you have met were probably demonizing Bush as much as has the French press, but perhaps these irresponsible Frenchmen have forgotten who saved from the Nazis and who helped them to reconstruct their country thanks to the Marshall plan. Many of the Frenchmen I know are Bush demonizers/devilizers, they are mainly socialists who don't have a that high education, they lack discipline and respect. Even Chiraquians who are and were very anti american, are far to be the brightest and smartest people when it comes to geostrategy, economics and safety of the country. Chirac ruined France culturally, economically and moraly. Fact is that many people in France won't tell you a concrete and firm opinion like I do. For me there is no in between, you are either on agreement with a person or you aren't. When I speak with someone, I like the person to be concrete and accurate. I am not a fan of vague or abstract discussions which is typically in the French traditions. As far as it concerns me, I was always sticking to the Republican party when it comes to American politics and I was and still am and admirer of Ronald Reagan.
Many Europeans are not really proud of what happens with Europe of 25 and I do understand them.

No pun intended and no offense taken Fox

regards

georges
 
My problem ...

My problem continues to be who quote various statistics and facts about this administration and believe they are the worst. They also ignore statistics and information from the Clinton, H. Bush, Reagan and (God help us) Carter administrations.

Some of the people in this thread are commenting on oil, military action, terrorist attacks, etc... and utterly can't even remember simple details from the Clinton administration (let alone any earlier). Or worse, they choose to ignore things from the Clinton administration.

On conservative boards, they call me a liberal and a Bush basher.
On liberal boards (like this one), they call me a conservative and a Clinton basher.

In virtually every case, I'm never bashing. I'm only comparing Presidents against others. And I've totally given up on trying to get foreign nationals from recognizing their own, selfish leaders and interests for their country. I'll take the US' history against most of them -- especially "Old Europe" -- any day.

But as the major superpower, Americans have always accepted criticism. But at some point, when it gets outrageous, most Americans just ignore it and you lose our ears. South Korea is a perfect example.
 
He's done more damage to America than anyone. I cant believe this is the most powerful man (idiot) in the world

God Help Us
 

dick van cock

Closed Account
Worst President ever: Herbert Hoover. (totally inept in dealing with the impact of the stock crash of '29)

But GW Bush still has another two years to catch up on Hoover's record.

Other Suckers in Chief (tied in 3rd place): Reagan, LB Johnson, Harding.
 
President Hoover

Worst President ever: Herbert Hoover. (totally inept in dealing with the impact of the stock crash of '29)
Actually, Hoover had little to do with it. It was already in motion and he could do nothing about it. There was also great financial toying by the banks, but that's another story.

What would be later known as "The New Deal" was first proposed by Hoover in late 1931. But the Democrats overwhelmingly controlled Congress and kept it out until almost December 1932. And a good portion of what would be part of "The New Deal" was passed after the elections of 1932, before FDR took office.

The same happened again in early 1992 when H. Bush was in. He proprosed several federal fiscal policies that were adopted after the election. Democrats controlled both sides of Congress then too.

It's gone the other way as well. Clinton had many policy changes he tried to pass in 1999 to off-set the future .COM bust and bring some accountability to companies who were violating GAAP. But the Republicans now controlled both sides of Congress and blocked many things.

Frankly, more and more I see W. as JFK. If JFK wouldn't have been shot 2.5 years into his first term, I could see his same policies playing out similarly.
 
The JFK Administration ... a good case study ...

Please ellaborate.
Well, it covers many things. Let's start with domestic.

First off, JFK was repeatedly cruxified for his religious alignment. At many times he spoke of his relationship with God, combined with the fact that he was Catholic, and he would have been utterly demonized in today's press. In the '60s, it was more tolerated during the "communist scare," not even a decade after "In God We Trust" was put on our currency and "Under God" in our Pledge. But some questioned him, regularly -- and I don't mean just the "are you going to take orders from the Pope?" stuff.

He was also very "plain spoken." While that was appreciated at times in our past, today, our mainstream media would have cruxified him -- although smaller media outlets did so even back in his day. I've long argued that if you are "plain spoken" but from the mid-west or north-east, you are accepted. But if you are "plain spoken" from the south, like Gore from Tennesee or Bush from Texas, you are jumped on. And he wasn't a saint either (and I'm not talking any extra-marital stuff). I'm talking about his partying and what-not (which I can't believe people ignore about Clinton but focus on Bush for?).

More on the macroeconomics front, Einseinhower ended his term warning about the military-industrial complex, something JFK fed. It started with JFK's combination of military build-up and tax cuts -- very popular all-around. I don't think people realize that both Reagan and W. followed JFK's lead, almost exactly, when it came to American fiscal policy. And it got JFK in as much trouble as it did both Reagan and W. when it came to "pork" -- although JFK wasn't around to see it, and LBJ made it even worse with the "Great Society" that he eventually abandoned.

Which brings us to military. Some of the greatest sets of thermonuclear tests were done under JFK. He put countless medium range ballistic missiles on the doorsteps of the Soviet, including Turkey. He adopted the "first strike" policy in Europe, which scared the Soviets shitless. And the countless spying and other military changes came under JFK.

He then turned around and invaded Cuba, despite the spin, it still happened, and he was still apart of it -- a soverign nation. And that created a major issue. Many have stated that many areas of the world are now at issue due to W.'s "aggressiveness," but was JFK any different? I mean, Cuba, and countless other nations, now felt repeatedly threatened. And no wonder there was a "shake up" in the Soviet leadership to a more "hard-lined" stance.

And that brought us to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Threatened by possibly invasion from the US again, Cuba reached out to the Soviets. The Soviets wanted missiles to counter the new threat in Turkey, and tell the US, "yes, we can 'first strike you in 5 minutes too!'" And when this happened, did the American people rise up against JFK and say, "You did this to us! How could you let this happen?" No. They didn't micromanage the President's decisions like he didn't know what he was doing -- but did JFK really think things through? In hindsight, no, I don't think he did until later! (including Bobby and his "Turkey bargain" during the Cuban Missile Crisis).

When the UN became utterly useless once again, JFK went outside the UN and signed an "act of war" in a blocade. At one point, as disclosed in 2002, the US used a tactical nuke against a Soviet submarine. The US made several other aggressive moves during the entire "situation." And in the end, the US expensed the defense of Turkey for its own safety, because that was the only way to get the Soviet to back down.

And even then, the US never, ever proved MRBM were in Cuba. The US was chastized, constantly, for its "act of war" in the blockade as well as negative attitudes towards the USSR, in the UN. A majority of nations blamed the UN for the Cuban Missile Crisis, and given the things that led up to it, they may have been correct! And the agreement with the US didn't get rid of the tactical nukes the USSR gave Cuba -- but only when Castro threatened to use them against the US independent of the Soviet leadership were they removed (thank God!).

And that's just the first 2.5 years. Now I'm not trying to "demonize" JFK here. I think he thought everything he did was right. He honestly tried. And because he was shot, he really avoided a lot of the blame.

Because let's talk about the JFK Administration beyond his death.

JFK brought in McNamara and countless other people. He put the first troops in Vietnam. McNamara was a penny pincher and poorly equiped our troops. He butt his nose into the military's affairs -- from unifying the equipment designations to the "powder" for the M16 to the "single plane for all services" F-111 disaster and the "useless for Vietnam" F-4, he was a total bafoon -- far worse than Rumsfield. People say he "stood down the chiefs" in the Cuban Missile Crisis, which is debateable (I think the JFK administration holds more blame than they get for military actions -- especially strategic build-up) but he also was a walking clusterfuck when it came to before and during Vietnam.

He single-handedly was the man who sold LBJ on putting the troops in -- and it became "McNamara's War." He was a "wiz kid" who thought he was above everything and everyone -- like countless others in the JFK administration brought in. They went in under-equipped. We were not prepared and the military had to adapt in the field. Beyond just the M16. No means to detect SAMs. No defense of firebases. Countless field inventions were by military field units, not anything the Secretary of Defense did.

Most of the "Great Society" and "Guns'n Butter" were fall-outs of JFK's military-industrial complex change in macroeconomics. Our economy was tanking as a result well before Vietnam escalated. LBJ takes the blame for putting all those troops in, but would have JFK acted different? The man who promised to defend anyone from Communism? I honestly think LBJ was more reserved than JFK. But everyone called LBJ "the liar" just like GWB today.

In fact, Bobby Kennedy was a two-faced SOB and I don't blame LBJ one bit for hating his guts by '68.

The difference between GWB and JFK are 2 things ...

1. There is no counter-superpower (at least not yet), and the US is called a "HyperPower." Everything JFK did, everything was as an over-abusing superpower -- from the missiles in Turkey to the "first strike" policy to the invasion of Cuba and the "lingering threat" left over -- let alone the relentless thermo-nuclear tests, spying and countless other "aggressive actions" we did.

2. JFK was shot 2.5 years into his term. The question for me that will always linger is what would he have done in LBJ's place? How far would we have gone in Vietnam? The military-industrial complex? The countless other things? McNamara would have sold JFK on the war all-the-same, and JFK had a higher sense of anti-communist, pro-righteous, pro-God attitude than curse-mouthed LBJ any day!

And the counter-argument would have been, "what if GWB died 2.5 years into his term?" It really makes you wonder, eh? As much as people demonize him outside the US, he was fairly well liked until late 2003, after many things. One could argue many things about JFK in the same light -- especially after "facts" about what really happened in the Cuban Missile Crisis came out.

So, again -- and this is just the "tip of the iceberg" -- I see a lot of similarities! In fact, he was far more aggressive than GWB! One could argue that JFK caused the change in the stance of the Politburo and the leadership of Nikita Kruschev!

But this was before CNN, Fox and countless in the media others stopped putting the pro-American spin on everything. This was during the Cold War when countries "picked the lesser of two evils." As I've said before, the US has not changed one bit, but the world has. We no longer do as we please like we did during the Cold War.

In fact, W. and even Clinton and H. Bush before him, do an awful lot of explaining -- far more than even JFK did. And JFK really made some "aggressive" moves that wouldn't be tolerated today. Let alone his administration's legacy lived on afterwards -- and LBJ regularly complained about leaving too many Kennedies in the White House.
 
Prof.,

JFK probably got away because he was charismatic - unlike Johnson.
That, and because he was shot. This is just my personal opinion of how JFK, Johnson and Nixon came across to me back in those days.

I'll never forgive them though...


By the way - I agree with your assessment of McNamara. We had a lot of fun terms for that REMF ....


cheers,
 
Can't really say, he's not my president but I think what's happened so far during his terms will have repercussions for generations to come.
I don't think that's an exaggeration either.
 
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