Iraq Uncensored

I'd like to explain my "fuck the world opinion" line. I've thought it through today and I think that was much more harsh than I intended. I apologize and I didn't mean to insult anyone (if you were). I snapped cause I'm sick of hearing that line time and again.

A good president will listen and take in what leaders of other counties have to say. However, I don't think a good president will change his mind based primarily on what the rest of the world says. Bush hasn't indicated a grudge against those who didn't want to fight. He asked, expressed his disappoint if others declined, and went from there.

Oh, and Brino, I'd like to address your "leave them alone" statement. We left the terrorists alone for years. They bombed the World Trade Center in the 90's and Clinton did jack shit about it. Clinton could've had custody of Bin Laden and he passed it up. And how were we repaid for leaving the terrorists alone? THE FLEW PLANES INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER!
 
Blackjack said:
and what exactly was weak about America before 9/11? the fact that they didn't bomb third-world-countries?l.

I'm not sure of it's first second or third world label, but I'm sure Serbia felt a lot of those bombs raing down upon them....all without UN approval either I might add
 

McRocket

Banned
Dolman said:
This is fucking pathetic. You all (with the exception of a VERY few in this thread) are fucking morons.

You critisize Bush for being stupid, yet let's think of something...

-You watch the heavily liberal biased news, and MAYBE some of you do some online reading. That is the extent of your knowledge on this war.

-Bush, has TONS of people at his aid, to call upon whenever he wants. He has advisors, experts, and specialists in EVERY subject you can think of, INCLUDING, and especially, WAR.

Now let me walk you through this. THIS MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE DOUCHES. What the FUCK do you know about this, compared to this man and those around him? By calling him stupid, and comparing him to hitler (HA!), you are also calling all of these people stupid. How are they stupid?! It's their fucking job to know about this stuff, and Bush gets his info from them. Keep in mind some of them are democrats.

You act like what Bush says goes. WE ARE NOT LIVING IN A DICTATORSHIP. D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y is what we have.

How many of you have said or implied that we are just over there killing people for no reason? Do I need to explain that we are over there to kill TERRORISTS? NOT random people.

Well I'm out. I'll probably read the replies to this thread, but I doubt I will post in it anymore because all I will get is whiney liberal bitches complaining about the things they ALWAYS complain about.

Just think about this before responding with your stupid insults on the president. We (the US) are the greatest superpower in the world. There is no way in hell one man (BUSH) could have waged this war on his own. He had many people backing him up. Many people smarter and better-informed than you. To call all of this countrie's actions STUPID, is to say that the 'brains' of this country is stupid.
And that is just stupid.


So what your saying is that we should blindly listen to the President because he is the President. I would imagine that is why people followed Hitler and Stalin. Oh many did it out of fear. But I bet many followed them because they assumed that since they are the leaders that they must be doing the right thing.
Now I think Bush's intentions are generally good. But I think he is arrogant and out of touch.

If you want to follow someone just because they are President, go ahead. Does that mean that no matter what Republican President is in power - you will blindly follow him. I bet you most loyal Republicans thought Nixon was a great man before Watergate.

The bottom line is you can never be sure. I think I will wait until he proves his credibility to me.

Trust is earned, not given away. At least it is for me.
 

XanderJack

Banned
So basically Dolman comes on here insulting anybody that thinks differently then him, and then says he will read the replies but be too much of a coward to respond. Look people, I understand, after 9/11 a lot of Americans now have blinders on because of the horrific scenes that took place...I get that. Dolman, you say we are over there to kill terrorists and not random people, which may be our intention, though if our intention was to kill terrorists then why the hell are we fighting a war in Iraq and not Saudi Arabia. So why would we not attack Saudi Arabia...hmmm is it because of all the money they have in our stock market, or that Bush is business partners and friends with the Saudi Royal Family. Oh yeah, did you know that most of the terrorists from 9/11 were from there. Anyways, back to my point, we are doing a wonderful job not killing random people, what is the number again...I think maybe 10,000 plus. Or is the just my whiney liberal bitching again. Maybe we did go over to Iraq to free the people, I also highly doubt that. Does that make up for the fact that Bush lied about Iraq's involvment in the 9/11 attacks. But it is hard for me to talk about Bush without wanting to punch my fucking computer screen. I cannot and will not be able to understand how America can appoint such a cold-hearted prick as their leader, it makes me weep for the future of this country and the world. Did a little research from my "liberal media" Dolman, over 132,000 deaths since the war started in 2003. How can that be acceptable by anyone.
 
mcrocket said:
If you want to follow someone just because they are President, go ahead. Does that mean that no matter what Republican President is in power - you will blindly follow him. I bet you most loyal Republicans thought Nixon was a great man before Watergate.
Awesome point! That's why I either refer to myself as independant or, if asked which side I favor more, conservative. I refuse to blindly follow anyone, especially just because they're from a certain political party. Trust me, I was nervous about these wars when they first started. But, after hearing what the plans are and why they're being done, I think Bush is doing the right thing.
 
Dolman said:
This is fucking pathetic. You all (with the exception of a VERY few in this thread) are fucking morons.

You critisize Bush for being stupid, yet let's think of something...

-You watch the heavily liberal biased news, and MAYBE some of you do some online reading. That is the extent of your knowledge on this war.

By and large, the media is not liberal biased. Sorry, Ann Coulter has been lying to you.

-Bush, has TONS of people at his aid, to call upon whenever he wants. He has advisors, experts, and specialists in EVERY subject you can think of, INCLUDING, and especially, WAR.

Bush also has experts for hiring the right aides and experts - thus, he can find experts to vouch for whatever opinion you like. Just because someone is an 'expert' in their field, such as war, doesn't mean that they're going to choose the morally correct option.

You act like what Bush says goes. WE ARE NOT LIVING IN A DICTATORSHIP. D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y is what we have.

Actually, we live in a republic, not a democracy. There are some significant differences. Some of the more important are that rather than our country voting on going to war, our representatives vote for us.

How many of you have said or implied that we are just over there killing people for no reason? Do I need to explain that we are over there to kill TERRORISTS? NOT random people.

Actually, by and large, we went over there to depose the regime of Saddam and set up some new trade agreements with a prosperous western country (us, with oil) - not to go on a terrorist killing spree, mostly because the terrorists from 9/11 were not from Iraq. The terrorists that we've been killing over there are mostly terrorizing the troops over there because they are over there.

Well I'm out. I'll probably read the replies to this thread, but I doubt I will post in it anymore because all I will get is whiney liberal bitches complaining about the things they ALWAYS complain about.
Im guessing you consider yourself a conservative? Political labels are for assholes.

Just think about this before responding with your stupid insults on the president. We (the US) are the greatest superpower in the world. There is no way in hell one man (BUSH) could have waged this war on his own. He had many people backing him up. Many people smarter and better-informed than you. To call all of this countrie's actions STUPID, is to say that the 'brains' of this country is stupid.
And that is just stupid.

I am not calling Bush stupid. I'm calling him manipulative. I am not calling the country's actions stupid, I am calling them wrong. I am saying that I do not agree with what has happened, and who is responsible for that? My representative (because we live in a republic, not a democracy), so I need to let him know how I feel, typically by letters. Whether or not he knows my name, the frequent letter writing efforts that I have personally made ensures that someone at his office knows me and my opinions by name, and at least try to sway the actions back towards what I consider right.
 

Brino

Banned
Blackjack said:
hm I have to disagree on that one brino. I don't think, that the best offense is a good defense. The best way to "win" a war is not having to fight a war at all.
There's people dying, they're literally slaughtered and I'm not saying that it's only the Iraqi but also the Americans.

What do you guys think will our children ask us? We asked our grandfathers how they could murder thousands of men or simply letting other people murder thousands of men. What will we answer, if our children ask us why we didn't intervene when we saw a people dying, saw children starving, saw our whole goddamn planet being on the brink of death and instead of doing something useful we spend vast amounts of money on killing each other and not on helping each other?
Think about that because I don't have an answer...

I think to fight terrorism the best offense is a good defense but this only applies to terrorism. When it comes to other issues like Africa for instance my feelings change. I think we should have done something about whats going on in Africa a long time ago and it's a fucking crime that we focus so much on all the death every where else but there. Also keep in mind that I still think we should try to continue peace talks in the Middle East, I just think instead of spending so much money on a military campaign we should be spending that money here at home on things like protecting our borders. That's what I meant when I said that the best offense is a good defense.
 

Brino

Banned
Dolman said:
-You watch the heavily liberal biased news, and MAYBE some of you do some online reading. That is the extent of your knowledge on this war.

And how much FOX News have you been smoking recently!?
 
This dicsussion has become absolutely ridiculous! If everything the pro-Bush-posters have to say is that we are wrong without giving any senseful argument we can quit this right here and now.
It's easier for both sides. You don't have to fear that your point of view might be wrong and we won't get heart-attacks because of guys who just ignore what we are saying, giving as answers like "no, that's wrong, you're blinded" or "no that'S wrong because you're an idiot".

One last thing is left for me to say to the pro-Bush-guys:
Sapere aude!
For those who don't know Kant, don't know why, but I think there are not many of you guys who know him or what he did, translated it means:
Have the courage to use your mind!
 
Every Bush supporter are just this... BUSH supporters... so don't try to convinced us that you got the absolute truth, its just not true... i'm not saying that the Democrats are saying the truth either,,, lets face it, those guys are politicians, so they are all LIARS its part of their jobs... lie to us each and everyday... :2 cents:
 
i think to fully understand the situation in Iraq, people should read about what happened before the rise of Hussein, and how he gained his power and became the americans' favorite bad guy.
a long time ago the USA's archenemy was still the Soviet Union and the Communism. the biggest stronghold against the commies at that time was Iran/Persia. USA was arming Persia until they had the world's 4th largest army !!! in order to finance such a huge army, the Shah of Persia oppressed and exploited the population so badly, that they soon gathered around a religious leader - Ayatollah Khomeini - who eventually lead the Persians in a peaceful and quite effective revolution, with millions (!!!) of desperate Persians on the streets. not a single shot was fired, and the Shah and the heads of his regime had to flee into exile. now the US government had a problem. the 4th largest army of the world was now in the hands of an islamic religious fundamentalist, who sure wasn't willing to continue the fight against the USSR.
so they turned to yet another dictator who practically lived in the neighborhood - Saddam Hussein ! they told him "Saddam, you're our man. we give you the weapons, you march into the Iran, stop the islamist revolution of Khomeini, and as a reward you may keep the oil wells that you conquer."
for eight years Hussein tried to conquer the Iran - without success. the casualties were too great ! since the oil wells were everything the Americans offered as a reward, and also everything Hussein wanted, he simply chose another - far easier - opponent he could raid - Kuwait ! for the americans that was an outrage, and over night Hussein turned from an ally to the new Hitler.
make yourselves clear what happened there ! killing thousands of Persians and Kurds was o.k. for the US gov, but seizing Kuwait...NO WAY !!! "hey Saddam, we're the ones to tell you whom to slaughter, is that clear ?"
Hussein basically didn't do anything different ! all he did was breaking a war pact with the USA, but suddenly he was the latest monster on this planet.

after the fist Gulf War Hussein has been so debilitated, that any talk about him being a threat to the world still makes me break out in hysterical laughter.
he hardly had enough military power left to oppress his own country, let alone attacking another one.
and that stupid argument that Hussein was plotting with Al-Qaeda. to hear that from the so-called sophisticated people is an affront to human intelligence itself. Hussein, a capitalistic dictator to whom religion is nothing but a useful tool, and Bin Laden, a religious fanatic, are working together ?!?
Saddam was the black sheep in the middle east !!! an atheistic dictator surrounded by theocracies, just imagine that. any true moslem detested Hussein !!! and no fundamentalist would have dared to plot with him.

and what would he have gained by conducting a terroristic attack on the USA ??? killing some thousand people, not even soldiers, and then -totally content- waiting for the devastating retribution ?! yeah, right ! this man knows the wrath of the USA ! Saddam may be insane, but he's not stupid. he would have known that revenge would fall on his head like a sledgehammer.
there's no way Saddam was involved in 9/11 !!!

as for all the "good things" America and other western democracies are doing all around the world (development aid and similar), let me tell you this: we're only investing and helping if it pays off !!! where was the US army during the bloody civil war in Rwanda, that cost over a million peoples lives - a civil war of unprecedented dimension ? the US army even ordered the UN troops out of Rwanda ! why ? well, because Rwanda has no natural resources.
talking about AIDS in Africa: tens of millions are infected ! their life expectancy can be prolonged with the proper medicaments. USA is the biggest provider of those medicaments, but the problem is that no African can afford them ! so when the african governments asked the USA to pass them the patents and production rights, so that they could distribute the medicaments to a smaller price, GWB denied that request with the following explanation: "it would conflict with the principles of the Free Market Economy" !!!!!!! in other words: "we wouldn't profit from that" !
so much for our helpful christian western society...

politics is still all about power and domination, money and property, deception and war. it was, is and will always be a fucking dirty business.
 
politics is still all about power and domination, money and property, deception and war. it was, is and will always be a fucking dirty business.

true!
thanks for all your work and the time it has surely taken to write this, but it's senseless.
People who support Bush support him for one simple reason. They don't know any better and they're not interested in anything that might let them know things better...

sad but true
 
as for all the "good things" America and other western democracies are doing all around the world (development aid and similar), let me tell you this: we're only investing and helping if it pays off !!! where was the US army during the bloody civil war in Rwanda, that cost over a million peoples lives - a civil war of unprecedented dimension ? the US army even ordered the UN troops out of Rwanda ! why ? well, because Rwanda has no natural resources.
talking about AIDS in Africa: tens of millions are infected ! their life expectancy can be prolonged with the proper medicaments. USA is the biggest provider of those medicaments, but the problem is that no African can afford them ! so when the african governments asked the USA to pass them the patents and production rights, so that they could distribute the medicaments to a smaller price, GWB denied that request with the following explanation: "it would conflict with the principles of the Free Market Economy" !!!!!!! in other words: "we wouldn't profit from that" !
so much for our helpful christian western society...


Excellent post, man.

I loved this part in particular. The U.S. doesn't do anything unless it's beneficial to us somehow. It's sad, but true.
 

McRocket

Banned
Another great post from Leto II.

One question. Who is Leto I? :)

A couple of points. One - arming Iraq. I don't doubt what you typed. (very enjoyable reading also). But if you look at who actually armed Iraq. It was Russia (Soviet Union), France and China. I do not know if there was any major American weapon system in Iraq.
Like I typed; I do not doubt what you said. But that is interesting to me.

And finally, Rwanda. I agree 100% with everything you wrote. One of the most disgusting chapters in UN and American history - as far as I am concerned. Disgusting. To let those people hack each other to death. And to even pull out knowing what was about to happen. Horrific.

A bloody, bloody good post Leto II.
 
mcrocket said:
One question. Who is Leto I? :)

.

that would be my dad !!! :D

you're right, he got his weapons mainly from the Soviet Union, France and China,
but the US gave him a lot of financial support for buying those weapons. and don't forget the chemical weapons, which were definitely from the USA and Germany. Putin once said, adressing the WMD issue in Iraq : "if i were the Americans, i would find some !" :1orglaugh one of the few moments in which i agreed with him...
 

Union Jax

Banned
mcrocket said:
I assume you are joking. If Hitler wasen't so hard up for the Soviet Union; you would have had (probably) a Nazi flag flying over Buck House.


No chance.

If he could have took us....it would have happened plain and simple.

He didnt b/c WE (The British) kicked ass.

No Country saved our butts ...not even The US who "think" they won WW2.

We saved ourselves.
 
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