Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5million

Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

I'll have to dig through my history material and get the officer's name.

General John Pope wanted to exterminate the Sioux entirely...............that could be the guy I've been thinking about.

That sounds like the right Pope.

He was probably still smarting from the fact Robert E. Lee totally pwned him when Pope was the commander of The Union Army of Virginia (which would thereafter become part of the Army of the Potomac).

Once Lee and Stonewall Jackson got done with Pope he was sent packing to Minnesota (veritable exile) to deal with the "Indian problem".

interesting note: Pope, who had a tendency to be pompous, is notable for being the one foe Robert E. Lee expressed a personal disdain and disrespect for.
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

I'm surprised its worth anything. Killing in the name of gold then, killing in the name of oil now. There must be thousands of bloodstained flags to sell. Some people just never learn.
 

L3ggy

Special Operations FOX-HOUND

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

I'll have to dig through my history material and get the officer's name.


General John Pope wanted to exterminate the Sioux entirely...............that could be the guy I've been thinking about.

That sounds like the right Pope.

He was probably still smarting from the fact Robert E. Lee totally pwned him when Pope was the commander of The Union Army of Virginia (which would thereafter become part of the Army of the Potomac).

Once Lee and Stonewall Jackson got done with Pope he was sent packing to Minnesota (veritable exile) to deal with the "Indian problem".

interesting note: Pope, who had a tendency to be pompous, is notable for being the one foe Robert E. Lee expressed a personal disdain and disrespect for.

OK....that is very likely the person to whom you are referring, T-1. I was focusing specifically on Little Bighorn and it just so happens that a trumpeter named Wheeler Polk was one of the men who was killed in the battle.

John Pope was an enigmatic figure who was best known as the architect for disaster by the Army of the Potomac at the Second Battle of Bull Run. After that debacle, as pool_hustler stated, he was sent west to fight Indians. He is also allegedly the author of the quote to which you refer about exterminating the Sioux. However, much of his action was seen in the Apache territory so his opportunity to make good on his threat to the Sioux was more bluster than anything. Ironically, he actually later spoke out in criticism of the way the Indians were being treated. Truth is, Pope was already dead when the massacre at Wounded Knee took place in 1890 that pretty much made good on his pledge against the Sioux.


Not sure what your question is, MP, since Scott never mentioned any "guy" but if you have him confused with T-1's original post, the answer is no, General Crook is not the guy to whom he refers. Interesting sidenote though....Crook has been criticized for leaving Custer and his men all alone after he had engaged the Lakota Sioux in a particularly testy affair known as the Battle of the Rosebud. Crook's army had expended a great deal of ammunition in fending off the Lakota after they found themselves too deeply exposed in Sioux territory. They literally shot their way out of it but, instead of marching west to hook up with Custer, Crook decided to return to his headquarters to rearm. Only a week later, Custer and the 7th Cavalry were wiped out at Little Bighorn by Crazy Horse and his allies. Speculation centers on what the difference would have been had Crook elected to send detachments to support them before the battle was waged. We'll never know. Interestingly, less than a year later, Crazy Horse surrendered to General Crook and about a year after that he was bayoneted while trying to escape from captivity and died. Here were his last words....a poignant synopsis of the fascinating and terribly tragic story of the Plains Indians of the American west:

"I was not hostile to the white men. Sometimes my young men would attack the Indians who were their enemies and took their ponies. They did it in return. We had buffalo for food, and their hides for clothing and for our tepees. We preferred hunting to a life of idleness on the reservation, where we were driven against our will. At times we did not get enough to eat and we were not allowed to leave the reservation to hunt. We preferred our own way of living. We were no expense to the government. All we wanted was peace and to be left alone. Soldiers were sent out in the winter, they destroyed our villages. The "Long Hair" [Custer] came in the same way. They say we massacred him, but he would have done the same thing to us had we not defended ourselves and fought to the last. Our first impulse was to escape with our squaws and papooses, but we were so hemmed in that we had to fight. After that I went up on the Tongue River with a few of my people and lived in peace. But the government would not let me alone. Finally, I came back to the Red Cloud Agency. Yet, I was not allowed to remain quiet. I was tired of fighting. I went to the Spotted Tail Agency and asked that chief and his agent to let me live there in peace. I came here with the agent [Lee] to talk with the Big White Chief but was not given a chance. They tried to confine me. I tried to escape, and a soldier ran his bayonet into me. I have spoken."

Many also believe that the massacre of the Sioux at Wounded Knee was carried out as retribution for Little Bighorn. If you're not familiar with the massacre and have an interest, read more here:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/knee.htm

Sorry to turn this into an essay. This subject is a particular passion of mine.
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

I'm much MUCH more sympathetic to the Native Americans and the plight they went through back then than any of the soldiers that tried to kill them. How the were treated in our country's history is right up there with slavery for the worst things the U.S.A. has ever did.
 

meesterperfect

Hiliary 2020
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

OK....that is very likely the person to whom you are referring, T-1. I was focusing specifically on Little Bighorn and it just so happens that a trumpeter named Wheeler Polk was one of the men who was killed in the battle.

John Pope was an enigmatic figure who was best known as the architect for disaster by the Army of the Potomac at the Second Battle of Bull Run. After that debacle, as pool_hustler stated, he was sent west to fight Indians. He is also allegedly the author of the quote to which you refer about exterminating the Sioux. However, much of his action was seen in the Apache territory so his opportunity to make good on his threat to the Sioux was more bluster than anything. Ironically, he actually later spoke out in criticism of the way the Indians were being treated. Truth is, Pope was already dead when the massacre at Wounded Knee took place in 1890 that pretty much made good on his pledge against the Sioux.



Not sure what your question is, MP, since Scott never mentioned any "guy" but if you have him confused with T-1's original post, the answer is no, General Crook is not the guy to whom he refers. Interesting sidenote though....Crook has been criticized for leaving Custer and his men all alone after he had engaged the Lakota Sioux in a particularly testy affair known as the Battle of the Rosebud. Crook's army had expended a great deal of ammunition in fending off the Lakota after they found themselves too deeply exposed in Sioux territory. They literally shot their way out of it but, instead of marching west to hook up with Custer, Crook decided to return to his headquarters to rearm. Only a week later, Custer and the 7th Cavalry were wiped out at Little Bighorn by Crazy Horse and his allies. Speculation centers on what the difference would have been had Crook elected to send detachments to support them before the battle was waged. We'll never know. Interestingly, less than a year later, Crazy Horse surrendered to General Crook and about a year after that he was bayoneted while trying to escape from captivity and died. Here were his last words....a poignant synopsis of the fascinating and terribly tragic story of the Plains Indians of the American west:



Many also believe that the massacre of the Sioux at Wounded Knee was carried out as retribution for Little Bighorn. If you're not familiar with the massacre and have an interest, read more here:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/knee.htm

Sorry to turn this into an essay. This subject is a particular passion of mine.

oh ok.
i thought he may have had polk confused with crook.

interesting statement from crazy horse.
i wonder if said that in english.
i also wonder if its true or at least accurate.
I'm skeptical but its probably accurate for the most part.

I do accept that the majority of the aggression was by the white man.
they could have probably avoided most of the bloodshed misery and death had they approached the situation differently.
no doubt about that.

but then again, when a group massacres civilians of another group simply for crossing their territory they are open to aggression from that groups military.

like i said earlier too bad they ( both sides) couldnt have lived together peacefully, things would have been very different even today.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

interesting statement from crazy horse.
i wonder if said that in english.
i also wonder if its true or at least accurate.
I'm skeptical but its probably accurate for the most part.

It was said in Lakota and it was heard and translated by Crazy Horse's former lieutenant and participant in Little Bighorn, Little Big Man (aka Charging Bear). It is said by some that Little Big Man actually turned on Crazy Horse and assisted in his murder by holding his arms back as an American soldier bayoneted him so he would not have had any reason to fabricate what he said. This was indeed his final statement although his absolute final words before he actually died were directly made to Little Big Man and those allegedly were, "Let me go. You have hurt me enough."

but then again, when a group massacres civilians of another group simply for crossing their territory they are open to aggression from that groups military.

I would agree. Can you cite an example of such an unprovoked massacre being perpetrated by the Plains Indians?
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

Very informative posts Jagger, thanks :hatsoff:

Sorry to turn this into an essay. This subject is a particular passion of mine.

"Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" is about the most gut-wrenching book I've ever read.
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

My apologies for the confusion concerning Pope as I wasn't referring to Bighorn specifically rather the whole Indian wars instead.

I can only imagine that there were plenty of subordinates who we know little about who did much of the actual hands on killing.
 

meesterperfect

Hiliary 2020
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

jag?
i just read that, about little big man.

no i cant cite a time when the indians killed whites.
it could be all bullshit stories, or it could have happened to many all the time.

i just read that the souix arent even considered plains indians.
i gotta study this history more.
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

The Lakota came to the plains from the upper Great Lakes after their introduction to the horse. They had always been on the fringes of the plains to hunt buffalo before. By the time of Greasy Grass they had been full blown plains people for over a hundred years. The Dakota stayed in the upper Great Lakes and the Nakota settled the lower Missouri River valley.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

jag?
i just read that, about little big man.

no i cant cite a time when the indians killed whites.
it could be all bullshit stories, or it could have happened to many all the time.

i just read that the souix arent even considered plains indians.
i gotta study this history more.

Oh no the Indians killed plenty of whites....just usually not without just provocation (often the breaking of a treaty). This rarely was the case regarding whites attacking the Plains Indians. After all, this was the time of Manifest Destiny.

And, as TRW said, the Sioux were originally from what is now Minnesota but, during the 1800s, they were nomadic buffalo hunters who roamed most of the upper Great Plains along with the Cheyenne, Arapaho, Pawnee and Crow (among others). Further south, the Kiowa, Comanche and Apache were more prevalent but all of them are considered to be Plains Indians.

I urge anyone to study this fascinating and terribly tragic period of American history.
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

how is that rag worth 5 million? Most of it is missing.
 

LukeEl

I am a failure to the Korean side of my family
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

One of the biggest military blunders of all time, I wonder if someone from Haliburton bought the hat, it suites them.
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

Can someone explain how this isn't US government property and was allowed to be sold?
 

Violator79

Take a Hit, Spunker!
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

Can someone explain how this isn't US government property and was allowed to be sold?

I agree with you 100%. To quote Indiana Jones: It belongs in a museum!! :mad:
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

Maybe it was sold by the government, to ease the economic crisis we are in! :dunno:
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

Many people don't know this but Custer's last words were: "Where the fuck are all these Indians coming from?"
 
Re: Custer's Last Standard: Bloodstained and bullet-ridden flag set to fetch $5millio

Let me get this straight...Its a flag that is bullet riddled, stained with blood and resides in Detroit? Ive seen dozens of those around here...whats the big deal? Damn we need to change our rep one of these years!
 
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