Conservatives Want To Get Rid Of DOE

[BioDefenseGrad]

I think we're going to have to dismantle the teachers unions and the education majors/programs that currently exist.

Teachers unions and their related organizations currently exist to serve the interests of the teachers. The self-styled American progressive party, the Democratic party, can't/won't do a thing about it because the education unions and their supporters are a key part of the base. This is the party that should be leading the education reform effort but it can't because of the vested interest of it's base in fighting reform. They will say they are pro-reform but they are lying through their teeth.


The Republicans want to keep costs low but get a high return and that is just not going to work when it comes to personnel recruitment and retention. I think the DoE is going to have to be purged but kept in place in some form to regulate and provide oversight so that basic minimum standards are met.


The federal government is going to have to match teacher salaries or better yet, match a low base salary with performance and resume based yearly BONUSES so that the actual take home pay for a teacher is competitive with what they would be making in most private sector jobs in other industries.

Teachers would end up making MORE money under my reforms, but the candidate would be much higher. A lot of teachers are bottom of the barrel and it shows in the students.

 

[Hot Mega]

The Republicans want to keep costs low but get a high return and that is just not going to work when it comes to personnel recruitment and retention. I think the DoE is going to have to be purged but kept in place in some form to regulate and provide oversight so that basic minimum standards are met.

I think getting the best bang for a buck is the goal of anyone...not just GOPers.

Teachers would end up making MORE money under my reforms, but the candidate would be much higher. A lot of teachers are bottom of the barrel and it shows in the students.

I believe teachers like ...say Doctors are born not made in some school. That's why teachers gladly take these unrewarding, low paying, jobs with long hours ...in some cases spending money out of their own pockets.

The g'ment ought to be doing all it can to incentive this field and allow the people gifted with the desire for putting up with the bullshit (someone else's rotten, spoiled, uncouth fucking kid) and doing a good job at the same time..not busting their 'balls' at every corner.:angels:

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

I think getting the best bang for a buck is the goal of anyone...not just GOPers.




I believe teachers like ...say Doctors are born not made in some school. That's why teachers gladly take these unrewarding, low paying, jobs with long hours ...in some cases spending money out of their own pockets.

The g'ment ought to be doing all it can to incentive this field and allow the people gifted with the desire for putting up with the bullshit (someone else's rotten, spoiled, uncouth fucking kid) and doing a good job at the same time..not busting their 'balls' at every corner.:angels:

Comparing a teacher to a doctor is totally inappropriate given the level of skill /margin of error demanded of a doctor.

So what you believe really doesn't matter.

As for the money, the average teacher, education industry operative and the system they work in can't be trusted with the money to turn American public education around.

The money needs to come with massive reforms.

 

[emceeemcee]

Why is it that hating on teachers is such a preoccupation amongst what passes for conservatives? Can they just not bare the fact that an individual might dedicate their lives to doing something other than generating wealth at the expense of other people?

While demolishing or radically reforming state education can only be a good thing for democracy, the modern day 'conservative' motivation for this scheme isn't born out of a desire to see a more enlightened population.

It's motivated by a combination of wanting to further the enslavement of the public to the private sector, social darwinism, the propagation of christianity and basic disempowerment of ordinary people.

 

[Hot Mega]

Comparing a teacher to a doctor is totally inappropriate given the level of skill /margin of error demanded of a doctor.

The comparison was a simple one...in the sense that most people who gravitated to those professions (medical docs and educators) tend to do it for selfless reasons.:2 cents:

So what you believe really doesn't matter.

I matters less than what you believe on the subject? My bad...thread closed then.

The money needs to come with massive reforms.

Based on what you believe I suppose huh?

Why is it that hating on teachers is such a preoccupation amongst what passes for conservatives? Can they just not bare the fact that an individual might dedicate their lives to doing something other than generating wealth at the expense of other people?

While demolishing or radically reforming state education can only be a good thing for democracy, the modern day 'conservative' motivation for this scheme isn't born out of a desire to see a more enlightened population.

It's motivated by a combination of wanting to further the enslavement of the public to the private sector, social darwinism, the propagation of christianity and basic disempowerment of ordinary people.

Explanation: Rush told them.....that's all they need to know. Rush: Teachers bad...Cons...yep..teachers bad.:shock:

 

[Zolf J. Kimbly]

i am willing to be that some of the people complaining about the D.O.E. are some of the same ones who complain when people less fortunate than themselves(especially minorities) find it difficult to gain upward mobility

create a system that keeps folks on the lower rung of society

then get pissed off and hold them at fault when they ultimately fail to beat the system

sounds like a business motto typical of the type of brilliance you find on the right

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Why is it that hating on teachers is such a preoccupation amongst what passes for conservatives? Can they just not bare the fact that an individual might dedicate their lives to doing something other than generating wealth at the expense of other people?

While demolishing or radically reforming state education can only be a good thing for democracy, the modern day 'conservative' motivation for this scheme isn't born out of a desire to see a more enlightened population.

It's motivated by a combination of wanting to further the enslavement of the public to the private sector, social darwinism, the propagation of christianity and basic disempowerment of ordinary people.

:wtf:

It's not just conservatives, it's independents and honest liberals. Americans of all stripes know that we need education reform, it's just harder for liberals to talk about it because they get thrashed by their allies.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

i am willing to be that some of the people complaining about the D.O.E. are some of the same ones who complain when people less fortunate than themselves(especially minorities) find it difficult to gain upward mobility

create a system that keeps folks on the lower rung of society

then get pissed off and hold them at fault when they ultimately fail to beat the system

sounds like a business motto typical of the type of brilliance you find on the right

LOL, like the current system(s) we see around the country are serving poor children so well.

Are you kidding me?

 

[D-rock]

Home schooled kids compare favorably on standardized tests and entrance exams. You can do your own googling on this one.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is not because home schooling is just as good as regular public education as it has to do with potential inherent selection bias in the data. A lot of the people who are home schooled are from more affluent families, people that can hire tutors, people that are professionals in education or other subjects that better allow them to teach their children, or sometime just parents that are fanatical to an unreasonable level, all of which tend to lead to children in getting a better education than others would be in that situation. It probably also helps with other things to throw off it's perceived quality from it's actual one.

 

[Facial_King]

Here's an idea for reform. Tax revenues collected for education should be divided evenly among all school districts. That way, you don't get crappy, underfunded schools for the poor kids, and palatial mini-campuses for the rich kids, which is what happens now.

There are former communist countries that do it this way, and they are quite happy with it. When they move from one place to another, they know that the quality of the school (infrastructure, programs, quality teaching staff) will be quite similar wherever they go. Poor kids and rich kids alike have equal opportunities.

 

[Supafly]

I guess the few parents that actually can homeschool their children are at least above the normal income range.

I mean, daddy must have a very well-paying job, so mum can stay home or a similar situation. Or they must have an income to pay a private teacher.

 

[Facial_King]

I guess the few parents that actually can homeschool their children are at least above the normal income range.

I mean, daddy must have a very well-paying job, so mum can stay home or a similar situation. Or they must have an income to pay a private teacher.

Not to mention, where do they get the TIME??

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the typical kid goes to school from 8AM to 3PM. That's 7 hours. If we take out an hour for lunch and another 2 hours by assuming the public school/public school teacher haters are right and a lot of that in-class time is just inefficiency and waste (to line the pockets of those money-grubbing teachers!!!), then that still leaves 4 hours for solid teaching.

So, say I work 8 hours a day and have a half-hour commute each way. 9 hours for work, 4 hours for teaching, and then, that's the whole day.

But I know, I know. MOST Americans still exist in a world where the man makes so much money the woman can just stay at home, and do grandiose cooking, meticulous cleaning, and (because hey, feminism has made a FEW inroads) leave the woman some extra time to pursue her own interests. Then she'll easily be able to find 4 hrs. per day to educate the kids in math ("And God said '2 + 2 = 4'"), science ("Evolution is a farce."), and English ("Other languages are for the hell-bound - like Ebonics, the language for the ni...negroes.")

Then, at age 7, comes the in-home politics course: "And Christ so loved us, that he sent Columbus to discover our land, then George Washington came over and started The United Christian States of America. And now Jesus has made us The Tea Party!"

 

[Mr. Hyde]

i am willing to be that some of the people complaining about the D.O.E. are some of the same ones who complain when people less fortunate than themselves(especially minorities) find it difficult to gain upward mobility

create a system that keeps folks on the lower rung of society

then get pissed off and hold them at fault when they ultimately fail to beat the system

sounds like a business motto typical of the type of brilliance you find on the right

I complain about it because it's a wasteful agency. What the fuck does the DOE that the states can't do? I am a HUGE believer education, I think that vouchers are a bad idea, I think that teachers need to be paid more, and I think we should fund our schools more heavily than we do now.

I also think that schools should not be a vehicle for social engineering, they should not be used to push social agendas, that unions are a major cause of bad teachers being kept around, and that there is waste in them in a lot of areas.

The DOE is, at best, a duplication of effort. At worst, it's a complete waste of federal taxpayer dollars.

 

[Mayhem]

I guess the few parents that actually can homeschool their children are at least above the normal income range.

I mean, daddy must have a very well-paying job, so mum can stay home or a similar situation. Or they must have an income to pay a private teacher.

Not to mention, where do they get the TIME??

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the typical kid goes to school from 8AM to 3PM. That's 7 hours. If we take out an hour for lunch and another 2 hours by assuming the public school/public school teacher haters are right and a lot of that in-class time is just inefficiency and waste (to line the pockets of those money-grubbing teachers!!!), then that still leaves 4 hours for solid teaching.

So, say I work 8 hours a day and have a half-hour commute each way. 9 hours for work, 4 hours for teaching, and then, that's the whole day.

But I know, I know. MOST Americans still exist in a world where the man makes so much money the woman can just stay at home, and do grandiose cooking, meticulous cleaning, and (because hey, feminism has made a FEW inroads) leave the woman some extra time to pursue her own interests. Then she'll easily be able to find 4 hrs. per day to educate the kids in math ("And God said '2 + 2 = 4'"), science ("Evolution is a farce."), and English ("Other languages are for the hell-bound - like Ebonics, the language for the ni...negroes.")

Then, at age 7, comes the in-home politics course: "And Christ so loved us, that he sent Columbus to discover our land, then George Washington came over and started The United Christian States of America. And now Jesus has made us The Tea Party!"

I say this gently, but you guys could always try a little research, instead of making up your own suppositions. First of all, there's deep-sea, commercial fishermen who "boat"-school their children. These are hardly pampered middle-class types. I also used to own land in an area remote enough where, if you sent your kid to school, they spent half their lives on the bus. Again, the neighbors were closer to the poverty line than most of the people posting on this board. Many of them homeschooled and some pooled their kids together to do it.

Why would any kid/parent do their homeschooling during a sunny, beautiful day? Evenings, winters, bad weather can make up a lot of classroom time, leaving the kids to do healthier, more constructive things when conditions permit. And since you're at home to begin with, there's no need for "homework". :thumbsup: See what I did there?

If the kid learns faster than average, he has nothing slowing him down. If the kid is slower than average (in a given subject, or overall) he has nothing speeding him up. In either case, the parent/child can eliminate all the filler that comes with conventional schooling. And the parent/child can take advantage of the lack of structure (some days, you're just not in the mood for math).

In either case, many public schools are crap. That's not going to change anytime soon, and it's not going to change because we were bitching about it on this board. After the stories I've heard from my child-rearing friends:

1. I'm glad I never had kids
2. If I did, I'd homeschool them, and I'd make it work. I wouldn't be sitting around, making up reasons why it shouldn't.

 

[Zolf J. Kimbly]

I complain about it because it's a wasteful agency. What the fuck does the DOE that the states can't do? I am a HUGE believer education, I think that vouchers are a bad idea, I think that teachers need to be paid more, and I think we should fund our schools more heavily than we do now.

I also think that schools should not be a vehicle for social engineering, they should not be used to push social agendas, that unions are a major cause of bad teachers being kept around, and that there is waste in them in a lot of areas.

The DOE is, at best, a duplication of effort. At worst, it's a complete waste of federal taxpayer dollars.

okay

i can respect your viewpoint because it does seem geniune

 

[titsrock]

There is a theory out there that posits that Republicans purposely do things to make Gov't fail in order to ~rile up~ the populace with the goal being to dismantle things that they don't want to pay for. DHS is a perfect example of this.

Turning back to the DOE -- a simple glance at the DOE's entry in Wiki reveals a lot..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Education_Organization_Act

Most alarming is the idea that the DOE was meant to try to get parents involved w/education because aren't we being naive to assume that the majority of parents would want to homeschool their own kids?

The other point is that the DOE was meant to "level" the playing field. The "rich" areas weren't supposed to be so far ahead of the non-rich areas along with that little problem that apparently existed in this country with some communities not allowing access to education for people who looked different then they did.

If we dismantle Federal involvement in Education then we will retract back to the 1800's America where only the children of the Robber Barons received an education. Illiteracy rates will skyrocket and our country will fall so far behind our European and Asian peer countries that they will come here and open factories because we will slide backward into true 3rd World status...

 

[CunningStunts]

If we dismantle Federal involvement in Education then we will retract back to the 1800's America where only the children of the Robber Barons received an education. Illiteracy rates will skyrocket and our country will fall so far behind our European and Asian peer countries that they will come here and open factories because we will slide backward into true 3rd World status...

We already spend more per capita on students than anywhere in the world, while our students continue to fall in rankings and on basic tests in all subjects. DOE's answer? Spend more money.

This is a clear example of the old leftist mentality that doesn't work... if your approach is wrong, its just because you aren't spending enough money!

Example: The District of Columbia spends the most per capita on its students, and yet is 51st in achievement. Do they just need more money or is there something else at work here?

Another point... I'm all for education. In fact, I've VERY pro-education. But the Federal government has never taught one kid to read, not one kid to write, and not one kid to do math. They simply take in money, and redistribute it back to where they think it should go while taking a heft chuck to pay for all of the people working for the DOE. Solution? Let localities teach kids, because after all, that's where they do it anyway, and let them spend the money THEY see fit on it.

And one last point, in case anyone has forgotten, Washington is B R O K E. The system isn't working and it's going to bring us all down if we don't start getting the behemoth Federal debt under control.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

There is a theory out there that posits that Republicans purposely do things to make Gov't fail in order to ~rile up~ the populace with the goal being to dismantle things that they don't want to pay for. DHS is a perfect example of this.

Turning back to the DOE -- a simple glance at the DOE's entry in Wiki reveals a lot..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Education_Organization_Act

Most alarming is the idea that the DOE was meant to try to get parents involved w/education because aren't we being naive to assume that the majority of parents would want to homeschool their own kids?

The other point is that the DOE was meant to "level" the playing field. The "rich" areas weren't supposed to be so far ahead of the non-rich areas along with that little problem that apparently existed in this country with some communities not allowing access to education for people who looked different then they did.

If we dismantle Federal involvement in Education then we will retract back to the 1800's America where only the children of the Robber Barons received an education. Illiteracy rates will skyrocket and our country will fall so far behind our European and Asian peer countries that they will come here and open factories because we will slide backward into true 3rd World status...

Talk about fear mongering!

 

[Hot Mega]

I complain about it because it's a wasteful agency. What the fuck does the DOE that the states can't do? I am a HUGE believer education, I think that vouchers are a bad idea, I think that teachers need to be paid more, and I think we should fund our schools more heavily than we do now.

I also think that schools should not be a vehicle for social engineering, they should not be used to push social agendas, that unions are a major cause of bad teachers being kept around, and that there is waste in them in a lot of areas.

The DOE is, at best, a duplication of effort. At worst, it's a complete waste of federal taxpayer dollars.

I posted this before but there still seems to be a question as to what they do..

From the dept's site;

http://www2.ed.gov/about/what-we-do.html

Whether you agree or disagree with their statement as a national priority...one shouldn't be able to reasonably argue they don't know what the dept. does anymore.

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

I posted this before but there still seems to be a question as to what they do..

From the dept's site;

http://www2.ed.gov/about/what-we-do.html

Whether you agree or disagree with their statement as a national priority...one shouldn't be able to reasonably argue they don't know what the dept. does anymore.

His real point is that too much of what they do is already performed by the states.

The real question is whether or not that is true. If it is true, do we get rid of the DoE or expand it?