Black History classes now banned in Arizona

[Philbert]

I wasn't blather "about nothing in the article". I read the article in the OP and it says no such thing. But even in the WSJ article for which you are referring to....My statement still holds true. Whomever you are...you don't learn how to enunciate in a school. You learn how to enunciate whatever language from the people you are around ...not a classroom.

Point is...it's a useless stipulation that has no bearing on a person's ability to grammatically and academically learn a language.

Speaking of blathering "about nothing in the article", the word "environment" appears once in the WSJ article and it's not next to the word "home".:tongue:

Quote:
"The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English."

"State education officials say the move is intended to ensure that students with limited English have teachers who speak the language flawlessly."

I learned much of my Spanish in Guatemala, and when passing through Mexico spoke simple Spanish (Esculpa Me...Donde esta El Hotel Sierra Gorda ? and got quizzical looks on my first try, even with my second. It seems I had a Texas accent, and was speaking Spanish with a subtle Guatemalan accent as well...my ear heard "Donde esta", who knows what the Mexican I was asking heard? [ Dawndaay Esstawr Aeyel Ough-eh-tayelle...]
What your untrained ear hears without a background in a language is what you repeat when speaking...and no accent is heard by you if you are unfamiliar. Hence the problem in heavily accented teachers teaching non-native English speakers.They unconsciously learn bad pronunciation without realizing it.
All languages are that way...I had the same experience with Italian (we don't have the sound 'egli' in English), and Hebrew (the native accent is subtle and isn't reproducible at first by a newcomer; Sabras wince and tell you to speak without the "accent"), and it took me a while to speak clearly in "generic" Spanish...
Lack of knowledge and impractical thinking is fueling this debate...the ruling is sound thinking and the mess caused by non-immigration enforcement is in every aspect of our system...the chickens are coming home to roost. We don't need teachers who can't pronounce the language correctly TEACHING it!!!

 

[LaLiLuLeLohan]

God damn 10 minute rule.

I feel I left out that this incident and the accent law are now apart of history. Imagine hundreds of years down the line - Not only is black history important (although not all of us ever evolved), but OUR history will be important. Black history is a pretty important part, it showed us how god awful humanity can be. Eventually, we learned from this, but unfortunately some people haven't caught on. Now imagine that applied to today's history. Future generations will be doomed if our stupidity as man isn't accounted for and forgotten.

Black history is very important. That's why schools don't teach it only to Black children. That's why Arizona will not "ban" Black History.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument...mary/h.hb2281_03-18-10_houseengrossed.doc.htm

I suppose reading the Bill is too easy.

 

[Ulysses31]

That may be so but what of it?

Whether you're looking down or up your nose at someone in that situation...it's still the same education and they're graduating from the same school.

But you may not graduate if your classmates treat you like crap, it will effect you mentally and influence your studies. A bit like when black kids in South Africa started goin to mixed schools after the abolition of Apartheid, some teachers refused to teach them and the other kids either wouldn't talk to them or bullied them. I'm not saying private schools in the US will be anyway near as bad as this but you gotta keep a watchful eye if you send your kids there, society is not as fair and open as it appears to be.

 

[roronoa3000]

I suppose reading the Bill is too easy.

No, just boring as fuck.

 

[LaLiLuLeLohan]

No, just boring as fuck.

It's not even a page long, but for those who refuse to read, the programs being addressed are:

Prohibits a school district or charter school from including in its program of instruction any courses or classes that:
Ø Promote the overthrow of the United States government.
Ø Promote resentment toward a race or class of people.
Ø Are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.
Ø Advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals.

 

[Philbert]

You don't legitimately believe this, do you? How does history promote anything? They're leaving out a gigantic chunk of history that is pretty significant. What happened to history repeating itself, guys?

God damn 10 minute rule.

I feel I left out that this incident and the accent law are now apart of history. Imagine hundreds of years down the line - Not only is black history important (although not all of us ever evolved), but OUR history will be important. Black history is a pretty important part, it showed us how god awful humanity can be. Eventually, we learned from this, but unfortunately some people haven't caught on. Now imagine that applied to today's history. Future generations will be doomed if our stupidity as man isn't accounted for and forgotten.

Reading your random shots at making any point at all is like trying to live healthy by eating only Pink Cotton Candy 3 times a day...

 

[jod0565]

As ThinkProgress notes, the Tucson Unified School District's popular Mexican-American studies department is the target here.

Mexican -American studies, not Black History classes are being targeted.

Hey, the more people who stay away from AZ, the more space to move around.

 

[PlasmaTwa2]

You don't legitimately believe this, do you? How does history promote anything? They're leaving out a gigantic chunk of history that is pretty significant. What happened to history repeating itself, guys?

History can't repeat itself if it doesn't exist. :tongue:

 

[roronoa3000]

It's not even a page long, but for those who refuse to read, the programs being addressed are:

I didnt even check.

 

[Member442]

No matter what brick and mortar building you send them to to sit in front of a few different teachers for 30 to 40 hrs a week...the biggest factor in a child's education is what happens at home.:2 cents:

A school is only a place with teachers and books, if parents don't prepare their kids to learn before they get there...it doesn't matter where you send them.

Kids perform better in pvt. schools not because of the school or the teachers..but because the parents and students generally have more incentive because of what they are paying.

The one thing I would change about public school...make it easier to get rid of the kids who make it difficult for others to learn.

Forfeit your right to go until you prove you want to be there and not ruin it for other kids.

Schools have books?? My kids only bring home overwhelmingly out dated text books. All the things I try and teach them like say saving money, don't trust things at face value ask question they are trying to make the children not do. It's not about educating its about tax payer daycare until they are 16 and quit or 18 and get a piece of paper. At least that's what I'm starting to think.

My girls are one school yr apart and when my younger one goes into the grade my older just finished she is getting totally different education from the same school. I'm just so

 

[Trident1]

I was forced to read pro black books while taking American History 1865-1940. Our lecturer was a 50 year old white woman who was obviously some hippy fossil trying to teach us about black revolt yada yada yada. This was in '92 when the whole PC crap was winding up.

 

[mikejohnson]

This is wrong in my opinion.

 

[Hot Mega]

Schools have books?? My kids only bring home overwhelmingly out dated text books. All the things I try and teach them like say saving money, don't trust things at face value ask question they are trying to make the children not do. It's not about educating its about tax payer daycare until they are 16 and quit or 18 and get a piece of paper. At least that's what I'm starting to think.

My girls are one school yr apart and when my younger one goes into the grade my older just finished she is getting totally different education from the same school. I'm just so

I understand. But practically very little information get's outdated. Math isn't, Civics won't, very little of American and world history and most aspects of science, biology, etc. don't.

To the degree that there may be a problem with textbooks is the extent to which they are just plain inaccurate. That is a publisher/quality control issue...not school.

When I say parents have the most critical job in ensuring their child getting the best education under the circumstances..what I mean is the parent making sure their child does their homework, exercises good citizenship, listens in class and asks questions when they don't understand. 80 pct of getting an sufficient education is exercising good citizenship (gained from proper home training) in class.:2 cents:

 

[Hot Mega]

Quote:
"The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English."

"State education officials say the move is intended to ensure that students with limited English have teachers who speak the language flawlessly."

I learned much of my Spanish in Guatemala, and when passing through Mexico spoke simple Spanish (Esculpa Me...Donde esta El Hotel Sierra Gorda ? and got quizzical looks on my first try, even with my second. It seems I had a Texas accent, and was speaking Spanish with a subtle Guatemalan accent as well...my ear heard "Donde esta", who knows what the Mexican I was asking heard? [ Dawndaay Esstawr Aeyel Ough-eh-tayelle...]
What your untrained ear hears without a background in a language is what you repeat when speaking...and no accent is heard by you if you are unfamiliar. Hence the problem in heavily accented teachers teaching non-native English speakers.They unconsciously learn bad pronunciation without realizing it.
All languages are that way...I had the same experience with Italian (we don't have the sound 'egli' in English), and Hebrew (the native accent is subtle and isn't reproducible at first by a newcomer; Sabras wince and tell you to speak without the "accent"), and it took me a while to speak clearly in "generic" Spanish...
Lack of knowledge and impractical thinking is fueling this debate...the ruling is sound thinking and the mess caused by non-immigration enforcement is in every aspect of our system...the chickens are coming home to roost. We don't need teachers who can't pronounce the language correctly TEACHING it!!!

You're making my point. What you first must understand is that you don't learn how to enunciate (even with a specific dialect) from some teacher in a class. All you learn is the proper grammar. So what does it matter what the dialect is of the teacher????

You have to be immersed in the conversational and dialectical language. To which you will always have some accent as all languages have specific geographical and national dialects.

Now I say this as a person who speaks 4 languages that are not my native tongue with an understanding that dialect is everything.

So let me walk you through this practically: Some kid who doesn't know English is thrust in an English class to teach him/her English. First the class only teaches grammar, second the kid will learn more phonically and practically from people he or she is around than any teacher. Lastly, do you have any idea what how long it takes...if ever for a person to casually erase an accent???

I know people who have been living in the US for 40 years who STILL have accents based on their native language.

 

[mushroomhunting]

While I think that you're being a bit sensational here (The teaching of ToT and Civil Rights - along with several other subjects for that matter - if taught properly and objectively can be understood as inescapable, yet important and impactful parts of American history, that can be targeted towards the entire spectrum of Americans, without engendering resentment for the government), I indeed understand your point, and agree that there will undoubtedly be some contentious times to come regarding all of this. The question to my mind, though is: will the contention stem from the contemplation of this mandate or the application of such? As in, will the contention be more about "what could happen," or "what actually does happen." As neither you, nor I have any direct say in this matter, it is nonetheless something that has been implemented and we will simply have to see how the mandate plays out in actuality to see what the ultimate impact will be and what repercussions will follow thereafter.

Can we picture the next staff meeting at local High School. Teachers/Principles are not going to know the correct way to interpret this. All they know is, if something is close to be against the new ruling, than it had better just avoid it completely in risk of consequence. We can never know for sure "what could happen" vs "what actually does happen" because the schools best option is be quiet and not get in trouble.

The title of the thread being "Black History classes now banned in Arizona", I know is extreme. I also understand Mexican's are being targeted more-so particularly. I just feel it comes down to how we are to perform what it is telling us.

Mrs. English&Literature Masters degree over here, is no longer allowed to teach class anymore because she grew up in Mississippi.

 

[calpoon]

schools will lose state funding if they offer any courses that "promote the overthrow of the U.S. government...

The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.

Democracies have been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their death.

We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master

... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

:ban: Guess we won't be hearing from these guys anymore.

 

[meesterperfect]

Not to be redundant but, an excerpt from the article:

"The new bill would make it illegal for a school district to teach any courses that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government, promote resentment of a particular race or class of people, are designed primarily for students of a particular ethnic group or "advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals."

The bill stipulates that courses can continue to be taught for Native American pupils in compliance with federal law and does not prohibit English as a second language classes. It also does not prohibit the teaching of the Holocaust or other cases of genocide."

It doesn't say anything about prohibiting the teaching of black history so let's be a little more objective here. I think what is much more troubling and is contained further down in the article is this little gem:

"The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English. State education officials say the move is intended to ensure that students with limited English have teachers who speak the language flawlessly. But some school principals and administrators say the department is imposing arbitrary fluency standards that could undermine students by thinning the ranks of experienced educators

Source is here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703572504575213883276427528.html

Obviously, this is aimed at teachers of Hispanic heritage who may have "heavy" accents. Who determines what constitutes "heavy"? What about an Anglo teacher from Mississippi who speaks with a serious southern drawl? This is dangerous ground. It appears that the Arizoniacs have really jumped off the deep end this time.

I am an english teacher. Part of my job is to evaluate students speaking ability.
Overall fluency, comprehension, word order, grammar,correct use of vocabulary and knowledge of vocabulary.
I have been trained to do so.
So yes, Send me to Arizona, I can assess a persons english fluency just fine.
Obviously it is possible.


Points. This story is just more bleeding heart, pro illegal immigration, hate America propaganda.
But, whats wrong with wanting English teachers who actually speak the Language fluently?
And I doubt they will fire anyone for having an accent, but if their pronunciation is just terrible, of course they shouldn't be teaching the language. Common sense.

Black history , They should kill it. Just as they should kill white history classes.
Double Standards, they suck.
History is history.
Teach it.

 

[Big Poppa Pump]

I am an english teacher. Part of my job is to evaluate students speaking ability.
Overall fluency, comprehension, word order, grammar,correct use of vocabulary and knowledge of vocabulary.
I have been trained to do so.
So yes, Send me to Arizona, I can assess a persons english fluency just fine.
Obviously it is possible.


Points. This story is just more bleeding heart, pro illegal immigration, hate America propaganda.
But, whats wrong with wanting English teachers who actually speak the Language fluently?
And I doubt they will fire anyone for having an accent, but if their pronunciation is just terrible, of course they shouldn't be teaching the language. Common sense.

Black history , They should kill it. Just as they should kill white history classes.
Double Standards, they suck.
History is history.
Teach it.

Yes, leave it to Meesterperfect to make sense. History is history. All this differentiating by the pc brigade is as prejudicial as they come.

 

[meesterperfect]

I was forced to read pro black books while taking American History 1865-1940. Our lecturer was a 50 year old white woman who was obviously some hippy fossil trying to teach us about black revolt yada yada yada. This was in '92 when the whole PC crap was winding up.

Yeah man, I had a college sociology class in 89., Woman from India was the teacher. Straight fom India, never lived in the states.
I thought I'd learn about societies, instead, it was a hate white people class.
Everyday, drilled in your head how evil white americans are.
That was the entire course.
That course actually woke me up.
It was just pure brainwashing of self hatred.
It was offensive. to all, not just white people. It was divisive.

I said it a million times, as long as the schools , the media and the politicians keep doing all they can to divide the country, things will only get worse.
Of course bad things happened in the past, but a lot of good things happened too.
To continually harp on the negative does no good for anybody, especially minorities.
One country, one people. Why can't we have that?

 

[Facetious]

I think what is much more troubling and is contained further down in the article is this little gem:

"The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English. State education officials say the move is intended to ensure that students with limited English have teachers who speak the language flawlessly. But some school principals and administrators say the department is imposing arbitrary fluency standards that could undermine students by thinning the ranks of experienced educators



Source is here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703572504575213883276427528.html

Obviously, this is aimed at teachers of Hispanic heritage who may have "heavy" accents. Who determines what constitutes "heavy"? What about an Anglo teacher from Mississippi who speaks with a serious southern drawl? This is dangerous ground. It appears that the Arizoniacs have really jumped off the deep end this time.

WADR, I disagree completely. You're just creating a division while attempting to evade a division.
How about having teachers with a Hispanic heritage teach fluent english speaking kids Spanish and vice versa? . . . makes perfect sense to me. :dunno:
If we employ your way of thinking on this matter, we're just asking for unwarranted litigation at the expense of education. Seriously, if we're not careful, we can effectively undermine our entire system of government with ambitious negative potential thinking. Who was it that said something to the effect of ~ For every positive charge there's an equal negative charge out there . . if we look long and hard enough? :nono:

Is my approach reasonable, maybe?

Also, on average, kids who end up speaking the clearest perceivable english are going to have a distinct advantage over those who speak with an accent.
I'm sorry, that's just the way it is. :dunno:

Oh shit! I shouldn't have typed that last bit, I just gave the self righteous civil rights attorneys fresh red meat. Edit EDIT!!! EDIT I SAY! :1orglaugh