Biggest Bailout Ever: Did the Government Go Too Far?

[titsrock]

We are seeing the collapse of Fiscal Republicanism since...hmmm....1990?

Today's events crystallized the privileging of the Investor Class above the Working Class. Karl Marx said History is the story of Class Struggles. In America, the Bourgeois is no longer "the Middle Class" because the Middle Class has been broken up. The Bourgeois is the Investor Class.

The Investor class has been "taken care of" even though we technically don't know HOW this financial class will turn out. All we know is who is bankrolling the Investor (the American Tax Payer) and an approx. value for the bailout--$500Bil - $1.5Tril. Theoretically, this is not a bad deal for the Tax Payer and the economy. If housing prices, the dollar strength and "the economy" start moving back UP...when it's all said and done, the Gov't might make money when they release these mortgages back into the marketplace.

Broadly speaking, I think the Republican Party has the "cover" to end the Iraq Occupation on the grounds that our gov't can no longer afford that war. We need the money in America. The Dems sure as hell won't oppose the Pubs talk of ending the occupation.

More Broadly speaking, our nation has to decide how much Socialism do we want. We have seen Sweden, Germany and Japan (within the past 15 years) have to bail out their banks due to similar stuff. Today, Sweden and Germany are among the strongest and most financially sound countries in the world. Japan, not so much but their economy is tied to the U.S. Sweden and Germany, not so much.

The point is...Socialism and Market-based economies CAN coexist. Look at Europe today. America is different, bigger and faces a ton of separate issues but "Big Gov't" is not to be feared. The Pubs have sent us along the path now.

Where and how will the Gov't "bailout" visit the Middle/Working Class? Does this mean that Universal Healthcare is coming? The Dems have a power position right now because the Pubs can't use "the fear of socialism" anymore. The Pubs have decided socialism is the solution out of the Wall Street mess.

Taxes will be going up--to the minimum of a complete reversal of all the Bush tax cuts. We'll have to see what else needs to happen. Does a national sales tax become a reality? Will all consumption taxes increase? Will there be investor-related taxes (sales tax on selling or buying a stock?)

We must have revenue generation from some place....

 

[calpoon]

what the fuck does this have to do with Clinton and Obama? I wasn't aware that they are the one's running the country right now. nonsense.

for the record government investment in enterprise is not socialism, it's communism.

I don't really see hwo this helps anything but stabilizing the market temporarily while continuing to devalue the dollar which will just keep hurting the economy into the future. where are all these new market opportunities and resources (ya know, what really makes the economy grow) supposed to come from? just churning out money and throwing it at the problem isn't a solution. maybe we should ask Zimbabwe for a loan.

 

[YMIHERE]

We all make mistakes. For example, we all make spelling errors. However, making the same error twice (in the same comment) can only indicate the person is stupid, uneducated, or both.

I agree that grammar does not necessarily correlate with intelligence. However, if a person consistently makes a simple error that a third grader could point out, then I have difficulty perceiving the individual as being any more educated than a third grader.

You are very uniformed and verging on ignorant bigotry. There are many famously intelligent people who have trouble with spelling. There is a learning disorder called dyslexia you should check out. It doesn't mean just reversing thing as there are a lot of variants to it. I know because I have struggled with it all my life. I can't spell for shit. Thank God for spell checkers. (legman, I don't mean you have dyslexia)

Here a list of some people with dyslexia.


http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_2130.shtml


BTW the spelling of dyslexia is very hard for dyslexics to grasp.

 

[E-Ann-Hilden]

Here and I had heard their taking on all the bad loans and mortgages would be unconstitutional.As you say we can't just let the whole thing collapse so what choice do we have.The part that bothers me is we have a one sided socialist system apparently,when they get in trouble we need to pay the price to save them.But in good times they get to keep all their profits pay themselves unreal salaries etc.Its time for more socialism all the way round all the time since we all have such a stake in these institutions.Drop this deregulate nonsense,demand they have more sane salaries across the board and make them accountable to the people.You know you look at corporations in Japan,they seem to operate much differently.I bet the CEO of toyota makes less then the CEO of GM even now and they do well while GM is now talking along with the other big 3 companies they want some sort of govt help since they have loans out at very high rates and are no where near as profitable as a toyota.America better wake up ,these corporate no ethics lets get rich quick types will ruin us if not reeled in and controlled and monitored closely.

People are capitalist when making money and socialist when things go to shit.

 

[E-Ann-Hilden]

We all make mistakes. For example, we all make spelling errors. However, making the same error twice (in the same comment) can only indicate the person is stupid, uneducated, or both.

I agree that grammar does not necessarily correlate with intelligence. However, if a person consistently makes a simple error that a third grader could point out, then I have difficulty perceiving the individual as being any more educated than a third grader.

Einstein was a poor speller.....

 

[titsrock]

what the fuck does this have to do with Clinton and Obama? I wasn't aware that they are the one's running the country right now. nonsense.

for the record government investment in enterprise is not socialism, it's communism.

I don't really see hwo this helps anything but stabilizing the market temporarily while continuing to devalue the dollar which will just keep hurting the economy into the future. where are all these new market opportunities and resources (ya know, what really makes the economy grow) supposed to come from? just churning out money and throwing it at the problem isn't a solution. maybe we should ask Zimbabwe for a loan.

The "free market" was on verge of collapse. Clearly, the Republicans felt the Great Depression was about to be revisited if they did nothing. How would that be good for America:dunno:? We wouldn't need to ask Zimbabwe for anything. We'd become Zimbabwe.

There will be no "churning out money"...there will be higher taxes coupled with more gov't regulation. Today's decisions just cemented bailouts for Big Auto and Big Airlines too.

 

[ham hock]

So then what was Bin Laden's master plan?

thanks for asking.....

You know if you find out what Al Queda was hoping to accomplish with the 9/11 attacks it is clear Bush has played right into their hands.They hoped we respond in such a way that diminished our standing in the world and particulary in the mideast and that we would spend so much resources on it that we would drive our economy to ruin.The 1st part of that is already done and the 2nd part is coming fast.The 2nd part is not just being caused by the trillions we spent on the wars,but was also aided by the republicans pro-buisness lack of regulation philosophy.But if we had the money we are spending/spent on the wars we would be in a lot better shape to pay for the financial mess the republicans have gotten us into at home.

^^ that's his plan according to friday :rofl: our economic situation has nothing to do with bad mortgages at all.... really.... :eyeso:

and unfortunately for us taxpayers the gov does have the money to buy the bad debt of the moron americans and get us on our way out of this financial mess... you're welcome... i guess.

 

[bodie54]

ham hock - You obviously don't agree with Friday, but that doesn't answer my question, which is; what do you think Bin Laden's master plan was?

 

[blakey]

barry-come-lately picks joe biden cause he knows he's unqualified, now he's pointing all blame for the market melt down(along with other wackos like pelosi) at republicans and trying to call mccain out on this issue... it's laughable.

not as laughable as you trying to blame the state of the us economy on the dems

- the gop have had the prez for the last 2 terms and had control of both houses too until 2006

what has happened in the (at least partial) meltdown of the us financial system has happened under the republicans watch, regardless of whatever other prior factors may have contributed to it
(the same applies over here where the uk economy is going totally to shit - and the labour government has to take the blame as they have been in charge)

as for "trying to call mccain out on this issue" - why the f*ck not?

this is john mccain who is on the record saying economics isn't his stongest area of expertise
as everyone could see by him repeating (just like george w) that he was sure the economy was fundamentally sound,
which he had to stop doing, then go back and re-explain, when it became clear to everyone just how bad things were getting

 

[LBP 76]

We all make mistakes. For example, we all make spelling errors. However, making the same error twice (in the same comment) can only indicate the person is stupid, uneducated, or both.

I agree that grammar does not necessarily correlate with intelligence. However, if a person consistently makes a simple error that a third grader could point out, then I have difficulty perceiving the individual as being any more educated than a third grader.

Who the fuck cares about spelling/grammar in a porn chat forum?

Easy. Pathetic people that are desperate to put others down because they are so unhappy in their own lives that they come here and pick on incredibly trivial things like spelling.
And though they do it to make themselves feel superior. What it does is make their misery apparent to the outside world.

 

[Friday on my mind]

thanks for asking.....



^^ that's his plan according to friday :rofl: our economic situation has nothing to do with bad mortgages at all.... really.... :eyeso:

and unfortunately for us taxpayers the gov does have the money to buy the bad debt of the moron americans and get us on our way out of this financial mess... you're welcome... i guess.

Did I not say:

"The 2nd part is not just being caused by the trillions we spent on the wars,but was also aided by the republicans pro-buisness lack of regulation philosophy.But if we had the money we are spending/spent on the wars we would be in a lot better shape to pay for the financial mess the republicans have gotten us into at home."




Trillions on wars plus the republicans irresponsible deregualtion at home,double whammy for the taxpayer and economy.And its folks like you that blindly follow the war mongering ,trust us nice corporate thieves who we can thank for the situation,talk about moron americans.

oh and BTW the govt does not have the money to buy all that bad debt up.Listen to any news conference with Sec.Paulson and he will tell ya they are going to have to BORROW every penny of the money.

 

[LBP 76]

Biggest Bailout Ever: Did the Government Go Too Far?

YES.

The financial market would not have collapsed. It just would have been restructured.
To bail out the S&L's back when cost as much as $400 Billion dollars (by some estimates). What is this going to cost?
These banks fucked up. They should not be rewarded with government bailouts at taxpayers expense.
And of course they and the government will tell you that the financial markets would collapse without this. They have to sell it to the U.S. taxpayers and fear is always a good way.

And to those that think the Friday Wall Street rally proves it was the right thing to do? Don't forget that the SEC put the kibash on a lot of short trading on financial stocks the day before so a ton of people had to put money back into the market on Friday to cover their positions.

 

[Bigoldowls]

It's interesting to note that a nation which prides itself on the virtues of the so-called "free economy" is quite prepared to intervene, with taxpayers' money, when the banks, insurance companies and financial investors, who by their own actions, make a huge cock-up. These governmental actions therefore, lend credence to the idea that capitalism does not work.

 

[kaliforniacatio]

Bush now wants $700B, that's fucking outrageous. Greed/loose regulation is the cause and the taxpayers are to be held responsible? It's pathetic..

 

[om3ga]

From The Times

American executives of the failed Lehman Brothers bank, parts of which were taken over by Barclays last week, will still receive millions in bonuses.

Barclays has pledged to pay $2.5 billion in bonuses and salaries to Lehman staff in New York, whose collapse brought the world’s financial system to the brink of failure.

A group of eight senior executives and 200 key staff will enjoy multi-million-pound rewards for their performance in the past nine months. A further 8,800 staff will share the remainder of the pot, with many having guaranteed jobs as part of the takeover of the US arm of the investment bank (Barclays plan to buy the core business of the company for $1.3bn / £700m).

In Britain, by contrast, nearly 5,000 sacked Lehman staff can expect no further pay.

One of the comments I've heard this week is that the current financial system is set up to privatise profit and socialise risk. Considering that the same article claims leading economists are warning that British taxpayers face up to 5p in the pound in extra taxes because of the credit crunch, I understand the concept - and I don't like it one bit.

I dearly hope Barclays have a change of heart....

 

[AFA]

There are only two scenarios, they bail them out or they dont and risk a major banking meltdown. They made the right choice but this is going to fix the problem.

We don't know the real consequence of not bailing them out. We are told what to believe on this as well as most things and many of us realize their ideas on the consequences go beyond common sense and don't work out that way. As you know we were told a year ago and maybe more recently this economy was strong and anyone not believing that was a naaysayer. Not true. The evidence has been there for 4 or 5 years this economy was doomed to fail but the political bosses decided to hide that as much as possible. I've been saying at least 3 years the real estate bubble was about to burst and talked about these ridiculous loans that were available. You know what? After all this I still see ads for $400,000 mortgages for $1800 a month, with no money down. Some even promise government guarantees on those loans.

 

[nearlyinvisible]

You are very uniformed and verging on ignorant bigotry. There are many famously intelligent people who have trouble with spelling. There is a learning disorder called dyslexia you should check out. It doesn't mean just reversing thing as there are a lot of variants to it. I know because I have struggled with it all my life. I can't spell for shit. Thank God for spell checkers. (legman, I don't mean you have dyslexia)

Here a list of some people with dyslexiia
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_2130.shtml


BTW the spelling of dyslexia is very hard for dyslexics to grasp.

Not understanding the proper use of the words "to" and "too" in a sentence is not a spelling error. Making the same error twice in the same sentence is not a spelling error. Furthermore, it is not a form of dyslexia.

Rather, it is an indication that a person does not understand the difference between the meanings of the two words. Again, a third grader would be able to point out the error.

 

[AFA]

Not understanding the proper use of the words "to" and "too" in a sentence is not a spelling error. Making the same error twice in the same sentence is not a spelling error. Furthermore, it is not a form of dyslexia.

Rather, it is an indication that a person does not understand the difference between the meanings of the two words. Again, a third grader would be able to point out the error.

Thanks, I got high marks in college English and didn't have the balls to correct people on that. Although it annoys me greatly that no one knows proper English, I never called anyone stupid over it.

 

[titsrock]

The bottomline is that Republicans and Corporate Executives only like "the free market" when it's convenient to like it. The second their asses are on the line...it's time to run to the Gov't and their Republican "friends" for a bailout.

The Dems need to hold the line here and not just allow the Corporations and the Bush Admin to pile this bailout squarely on tax payers shoulders. An entire housing-wide bailout needs to happen now.

This is a unique opportunity. The Pub "dream" of Free Market Capitalism has failed and the Dems need to use this opportunity to bring about real changes for people....an end to the Occupation...Universal Healthcare....let's bring all this about now...

If we are to believe the Gov't and "the experts" that we were on the brink of Great Depression II....than RADICAL, SYSTEMIC changes to America are now required..

 

[Friday on my mind]

The bottomline is that Republicans and Corporate Executives only like "the free market" when it's convenient to like it. The second their asses are on the line...it's time to run to the Gov't and their Republican "friends" for a bailout.

The Dems need to hold the line here and not just allow the Corporations and the Bush Admin to pile this bailout squarely on tax payers shoulders. An entire housing-wide bailout needs to happen now.

This is a unique opportunity. The Pub "dream" of Free Market Capitalism has failed and the Dems need to use this opportunity to bring about real changes for people....an end to the Occupation...Universal Healthcare....let's bring all this about now...

If we are to believe the Gov't and "the experts" that we were on the brink of Great Depression II....than RADICAL, SYSTEMIC changes to America are now required..

Yep as I pointed out yesterday Bush and Paulson are calling anything that helps the average person caught up in this as "controversial" or "political posturing",it's clear who they represent the companies and wealthy wall street types overwhelmingly.Yeah we need to do this to save the economy and banking system but there ought to be something done to try to help Main st. as well as Wall st. in all this.But no way they should be just given a blank check for 700 Billion without anything in return to the taxpayers who are going to end up eating a lot of that.It's time for much more stringent regulation of their buisness practices and what they are allowed to pay themselves in return for this bailout.If the govt (hence the people) are going to saving their asses we should have some rights to how they are run going forward to insure they are run in a way that is good for all and not just to make them fabulously wealthy and then leave all the debt to us.