Why The Bailouts Were A Bad Idea...

And... with that being said -- My personal thoughts on why I think GM should have filed bankruptcy, because it is how the Capitalist System works. sort of like in the animal kingdom. Only the strong survive.

Businesses fail every day in America. And, new once start every day in America. GM should have taken their lumps and shit it down, restructured, eliminated all the wasteful spending on lazy, unproductive employees, and streamlined their business to be able to compete with the competition.

Why didn't FORD go broke? They were obviously doing something right, that GM wasn't. I'll never buy a GM product. But, I will buy a FORD.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Rey, how can I give an explanation better than the one given in this article? People write articles for a living. And thank God for them. I also like reading and watching Charles Krauthammer on television because he is so better educated than I am. He makes sense to me. Just as this article did. And, I'm blown away by the authors' knowledge of the inner workings of the whole bailout plan.

On the flip side, if I didn't post an article, and just gave my opinion, then some in here would say "Prove it", or, "Big fucking deal... that's your opinion." So, I seek out lots of articles, one that will hopefully explain much better than I could ever do.

I asked specific questions that I didn't notice being addressed in your OP article. If I missed the answers to these questions, please point them out:

In 2008-10, even Toyota, Volkswagen and Hyundai/Kia could not source funding for their expansion projects. So how is it that these people think that these very same companies could have readily expanded their operations with an even bigger economic shock?

Where would they have gotten the money to do this? The credit markets were frozen.

And what would they have used for suppliers? Many of the same suppliers that made GM or Chrysler parts also made Ford, Honda, BMW and Toyota parts. All it takes for a car to be unsellable is ONE missing component. So who would make these components? Or do these people think that the car companies make all of the parts for their cars in their plants...?



And... with that being said -- My personal thoughts on why I think GM should have filed bankruptcy, because it is how the Capitalist System works. sort of like in the animal kingdom. Only the strong survive.

Businesses fail every day in America. And, new once start every day in America. GM should have taken their lumps and shit it down, restructured, eliminated all the wasteful spending on lazy, unproductive employees, and streamlined their business to be able to compete with the competition.

Why didn't FORD go broke? They were obviously doing something right, that GM wasn't. I'll never buy a GM product. But, I will buy a FORD.

GM did declare bankruptcy. But what I've pointed out in this thread, and many others on this topic, is that without debtor-in-possession financing, a Chapter 11 reorganization instantly becomes a Chapter 7 liquidation. And where there had been maybe 8-10 institutions that could have financed a GM Chapter 11 in 2006-07, by 2008-09, there were ZERO. So again, without the U.S. government acting as a debtor-in-possession, GM would have been moved to Chapter 7 liquidation. And there is no doubt in anyone's mind (who is involved in automotive) that we wouldn't STILL be working our way through that.

Why didn't Ford go into bankruptcy? Timing of asset sales and borrowing. They sold every asset they could and borrowed against everything else JUST BEFORE the financial crisis hit, or Ford would have been in the same boat as GM. So the easy answer is: luck.

What I am saying is, if in that other thread you were bothered by the current unemployment rate, the rate that would have hit had GM (and Chrysler) gone into Chapter 7 would make this look like a walk in the park. Most suppliers borrow money against invoices to fund portions of their operations. And the North American supplier network is interwoven. So even if a supplier doesn't sell to GM (let's say they only sell to NA Honda), the Honda plants still go down because of even one supplier that makes a patented/design responsible part... so that Honda-only supplier is out of business too, because their orders will be cut off. And during the credit freeze, NO banks were loaning against ANY automotive invoices at the same level they had been before. Most automotive suppliers barely made it out of that recession alive... even those who primarily served the foreign transplants.

It's fine to use articles written by others to support your beliefs. But one has to realize that there may be questions. And unless the author of the article will pop in here to answer them, that task is left up to you, the thread starter. I don't know zilch about the majority of things taking place in the world. But if I decided to post a thread about something about which I had scant knowledge, I would expect to take some lumps, if my beliefs were just based on things that I didn't know... only believed.

So if you can answer my questions about what we should do (as good Jehovah's Witnesses) once we start bleeding out, I would like to hear it. But if the answer is "just have faith in the capitalist religion"... you tell the doc that I'm a B positive and to shoot the juice to me! I have a business and political philosophy too. But when the chips are down, I will do that which is most practical, effective... and necessary.
 
Ford shut down the Mercury Division
Chrysler shut down the Plymouth Division
GM shut down the Oldsmobile Division

They weren't profitable. People weren't buying enough of those cars. I didn't see the government stepping in to "save" those divisions. How come?

However, my biggest belief as to why GM should have gone bankrupt is what ultimately happened, and that is, the fact that the government stepped in and assumed control. Not total control, but some. The United States Government isn't in the business to own major corporations. I would have totally supported a true LOAN, to help them get their ducks in a row. Chrysler was in a heap of trouble when Lee Iachoca ran it. They got a loan and turned things around.

I guess I'm just in total dissagreement with the government getting involved like they did with GM.
 
The Auto Bailout and the Rule of Law

When President Dwight Eisenhower named Charles Wilson — then the president of General Motors — to be his secretary of defense in 1953, some senators considering the nomination wondered whether Wilson could distinguish his loyalty to GM from his obligations to the country. Wilson assured them that he could, but then added that he did not think a conflict would ever come up. "For years I have thought that what was good for the country was good for General Motors, and vice versa," he said in his confirmation hearing.

Wilson's statement — especially that "vice versa" — was long considered the epitome of corporatist excess. To many, it represented the view that the government existed to advance the interests of large corporations (and, of course, vice versa), even if the arrangement came at the expense of average citizens and workers.

In the past three years, however, Wilson's attitude has come back into vogue, as a new approach to the relationship between the government and the private sector has taken hold in Washington. That approach — a kind of state capitalism that seeks to entangle the government and large corporations in order to allow for careful management of the economy — is perhaps best embodied in the government bailout and subsequent bankruptcy of Wilson's old company, and of one of its longstanding competitors.

The bailouts of General Motors and Chrysler have been held up by President Obama and his supporters as a great success story — proof that, by working together, government and business can save jobs and strengthen the economy. But this popular narrative is dangerously misleading. Far from a success story, the events surrounding the bailouts offer a cautionary tale of executive overreach. And their example clarifies the Obama administration's broader approach to economic policy — an approach that is both harmful to economic growth and dangerous to the rule of law.

THE FAIRY TALE
By December 2008, years of decline had finally caught up with Chrysler and General Motors. Unlike Ford, which had moved aggressively to fix its longstanding problems — chiefly by shedding unprofitable subsidiaries and renegotiating labor agreements — GM and Chrysler were still plagued by incompetence and inefficiency.

Both automakers were burdened with labor contracts that undermined their flexibility and saddled them with massive retiree pension and health-benefit costs. For years, both companies had also been losing market share: Once-proud GM had lost $40 billion in 2007, and in 2008 alone saw its sales decline by 45%. Chrysler, meanwhile, was languishing under the inept management of Cerberus Capital, which had bought the company in the spring of 2007 from the German automaker Daimler. (Daimler had merged with Chrysler in 1998 only to see its new American acquisition become an unsustainable liability.) By 2008, Chrysler's market share had been declining precipitously for a decade, falling by more than 30% in that year alone.

Finally, the onset of the credit crunch and financial crisis in the fall of 2008 proved to be the companies' death knell. But though their fates seemed to be sealed, both automakers brazenly refused to make plans for bankruptcy filings. They assumed that the federal government would not allow them to suffer the same fate as most other poorly managed companies in America. So they pleaded for a federal bailout, arguing that Washington's failure to provide one would result in the companies' liquidation — in part precisely because the automakers' failure to prepare for bankruptcy filings would end up producing "disorderly" bankruptcies that, in turn, would make it difficult to keep the companies alive. And liquidation, they argued, would eliminate thousands of jobs at the companies themselves, not to mention thousands more at suppliers and dealers. It would also destroy the companies' underfunded retiree pension and health benefits and — because they were backed by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, a government agency that guarantees some private pension systems — might in turn foist those obligations on the taxpayer. With the economy already reeling from the financial crisis, the automakers insisted, the shock of massive auto-industry layoffs would be too much to take.

On December 11, 2008, the House of Representatives buckled under the automakers' demands, voting (largely along party lines) in favor of a $14 billion bailout. The next day, however, the Senate voted down the legislation. A week later, lame-duck President George W. Bush and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson intervened. Announcing that the administration would offer the automakers loans with terms similar to the ones Congress had voted down, Bush gave GM and Chrysler three months to develop restructuring plans and prove they could become viable companies. To help the automakers through that phase (and a possible Chapter 11 bankruptcy), the administration extended them $17.4 billion from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, which had originally been set up to buy assets and equities from the financial sector in the wake of the mortgage crisis.

In March 2009, when the lifeline extended by the Bush administration had run out, President Obama stepped in. The administration forced out the CEO of General Motors, Rick Wagoner, and gave Chrysler 30 days to finalize a merger with the Italian automaker Fiat. In exchange, the companies received another (and even larger) round of government loans. In the end, almost $77 billion in TARP funds was diverted to GM and Chrysler.

But in spite of the generous loans, extensions, and second chances, the Obama administration finally concluded that the companies' restructuring plans were insufficient. In the spring of 2009, it directed both automakers to proceed into Chapter 11 bankruptcy — Chrysler filed on April 30, and GM on June 1. In both cases, bankruptcy involved creating new companies — the so-called "new Chrysler" and "new GM" — in which the federal government would have a significant stake, and to which the bulk of the assets of the original companies (including all of their plants, equipment, brands, and trademarks) would be sold. The original companies, meanwhile, would settle their obligations to creditors and shed those assets that would not be transferred to the new companies. Their shareholders would be all but wiped out.

The automakers' house-cleaning didn't take long; within two months of filing, each company had emerged from its bankruptcy. By the summer of 2009, the new General Motors was a somewhat smaller and leaner company, having shed about a third of its American work force. It was owned jointly by the federal government (which held 60% of the stock), the United Auto Workers union (with 17%), and the Canadian government (with 12% ownership). Chrysler, meanwhile, emerged through an alliance with Fiat, under which the new company was owned by the United Auto Workers (with a 55% share), Fiat (with 20%), the United States government (with 8%), and Canada (with 2%). (Both GM and Chrysler have significant operations and large work forces in Canada; the Canadian government, facing pressures similar to those exerted on lawmakers in the U.S., also contributed bailout funds — about $800 million for Chrysler and $2.4 billion for GM — hence its ownership stakes.)

The idea was for the companies to go public within a few months, at which point the U.S. government would sell most of its shares. GM did in fact go public in November 2010, raising about $20 billion in the biggest initial public offering in American history. Through the stock sale, the government's share in the company was reduced to about 30%. The new Chrysler has not yet gone public — indeed, the company reported a $200 million loss in the last quarter of 2010 — but industry analysts believe it will later this year.

To the Obama administration, and to many other champions of the auto bailout in Congress and the press, the story outlined here is one of extraordinary success. "Supporting the American auto industry required tough decisions and shared sacrifices, but it helped save jobs, rescue an industry at the heart of America's manufacturing sector, and make it more competitive for the future," President Obama said when the new General Motors went public last November. Then-speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi echoed his view, arguing: "In the midst of a severe recession, congressional Democrats and President Obama took difficult emergency action to rescue American auto companies and strengthen critical pillars of our manufacturing sector, while protecting taxpayers."

Of course, this "success narrative" is based on a particular reading of the events surrounding the bailout. According to that reading, the nature of the '08 financial crisis — as well as the economic importance of the auto industry — meant that the government simply could not let GM and Chrysler go under. But at least the unprecedented cooperation between the government and the automakers was undertaken in a deliberate, careful way — using the government's special authority to contend with the economic crisis in order to guide the companies through an orderly re-organization (rather than the dreaded chaotic collapse). As a result, the companies were saved, and now they have a chance to thrive again.

Unfortunately, every part of this reading of events is wrong.

The rest of the article here ---> http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-auto-bailout-and-the-rule-of-law

Are you bitching about the bank bailouts as well?
 

Ike Stain

Approved Content Owner
Approved Content Owner
I'm telling you, this ain't going to fly in the general. It's Solyndra you need to be hammering. :2 cents:
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Ford shut down the Mercury Division
Chrysler shut down the Plymouth Division
GM shut down the Oldsmobile Division

They weren't profitable. People weren't buying enough of those cars. I didn't see the government stepping in to "save" those divisions. How come?

From a business standpoint, do you understand the difference between a division within a corporation and the corporation itself? During the bankruptcy, GM shuttered Pontiac, Saturn and the Hummer divisions too. Around the same time, they also sold Saab, sold their interest in Subaru/Fuji Heavy Industries and tried to sell Opel. The aim was to save the corporation, not any particular division.

I am very well aware of what did and didn't happen within GM during this period. And based on some of the conspiracy theories I've heard on right wing radio, the government didn't exert anywhere near as much control over GM as some seem to want to believe. But any entity (whether it be private or public) that has a substantial debt and equity position in a troubled company does exert SOME control. It would be idiotic not to.


However, my biggest belief as to why GM should have gone bankrupt is what ultimately happened, and that is, the fact that the government stepped in and assumed control. Not total control, but some. The United States Government isn't in the business to own major corporations. I would have totally supported a true LOAN, to help them get their ducks in a row. Chrysler was in a heap of trouble when Lee Iachoca ran it. They got a loan and turned things around.

I guess I'm just in total dissagreement with the government getting involved like they did with GM.

Why am I having to repeat myself so many times in this thread? GM did declare bankruptcy... when a means of debtor-in-possession financing was available to execute a Chapter 11. I will only state this FACT one more time: without sufficient debtor-in-possession financing, a Chapter 11 reorganization becomes a Chapter 7 liquidation. Without being able to understand this VERY basic legal/business fact, we are (or I am) wasting time here.

It's fine that you don't agree with this or that aspect of how the situation went down. But as yet, you have been unable to map out any sort of clear path for how these reorganizations SHOULD have taken place.

And what Chrysler got from the government in the late 70's were loan guarantees, not loans. So going back to my original questions, please name the institutions which could have provided GM or Chrysler loans in 2009? You can even name a syndicate, if you know of one that I'm not aware of.
 
You can even name a syndicate, if you know of one that I'm not aware of.
I can't. However, I still wish they had gone belly up like any other company that wasn't cutting it.
 

Ike Stain

Approved Content Owner
Approved Content Owner
I can't. However, I still wish they had gone belly up like any other company that wasn't cutting it.

Fuck, I wish all the big banks had gone under, but despite my utter hate for those scumbags (who should be murdered along with their families,) there really wasn't much choice beyond nationalization, and that's too socialist even for Obama, who is actually (and I know you don't believe it, but) a little bit right of center.
 
Sorry a months before the recession hit GM did make new concession with the UAW, it was too late, I agree due to the upcoming storm.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/12/news/companies/gm/

Ford sold Volvo in 2010, Ford sold it soul, its brand and its stockholders out prior to the recession, they were smart, if you were management. Ford was offered a bailout package that was not used, but it was available and Ford would have used it if things got real bad

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/28/ford-finalizes-deal-to-sell-volvo-to-geely-for-1-8-billion/
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
I can't. However, I still wish they had gone belly up like any other company that wasn't cutting it.

Then another question springs to mind: since your wish means Chapter 7 liquidation, why does the current unemployment rate of 8.3% stick in your craw? Compared to the 19% or 20% that your "wish" would have brought, why are you not pleased with 8.3%?

Something does not compute here.
 
They were a GREAT IDEA, for the people that were getting bailed out. But now who really was bailing out who? Was it just the International bankers bailing out themselves?
 
They were a GREAT IDEA, for the people that were getting bailed out. But now who really was bailing out who? Was it just the International bankers bailing out themselves?

Don't think for a second this isn't taxpayer dollars going to corporations.

I think in general the bailouts were needed to stop a further slide. If you let capitalism go unrestricted without interference, it would be a wild ride. By nature it is Darwin in action. It would keep surviving, but with quite a bit of pain. The government tries to moderate the swings and the pain caused by the economic swings. Partly because caring for people is a human thing to do, but also untethered economic swings tends to lead to revolution.

Just like there was and is greed and theft in the private financial sector, I don't believe for a second that there isn't greed and theft in the government.

I had handed in a paper on supply-side economics and my professor commented that I only had half of the equation. I don't think there is a single answer. You need supply siders and demand siders. The economy will swing. There will be corruption. There will be acts of humanity. There are many things about the bailouts that disturb me, but at the end of the day, they were the right thing to do.
 
criminal acts -- where are the fucking prosecutions on wall st ! none !! fuck u Obama u cunt !
 
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