Are there any Military guys here?

[Member2019]

One word: Vietnam
Never again will US soldiers be treated by Americans so poorly for merely serving their country as best as they could.

 

[georges]

Bring out yer best argument Fox ~ and I promise I'll blow it down without resorting to the need for accusing you of "not supporting the troops".


If all you have is to "discuss American foreign policy" - please TITLE your therad as such ... or else be prepared for counter arguments listing ALL the nations from around the world....


cheers,

I don't think he thought about the title of his thread when he wrote it.

 

[Member2019]

Why the US is the oldest Republic that has NEVER been ruled by its military ...

It got shut down because the pro military members of the board got so angry and kept going on and on and on about it.

That's because you can't separate "service" from "policy." You don't have the luxury or freedom of neglecting your "service" when you are a member of the military, you don't make "policy." Those who serve sacrifice their own freedom for others.

You also ignore the countless "good works" and "good deeds" that the US military is responsible for. Civilian R&D projects funded by and supported by US DoD personnel and funding do a lot for the world. Let alone our direct support in disasters that no other country is capable of.

It wasn't about not supporting the troops, it was a fight between pro and anti military freeones members. I started off just talking about the military people here. We got off track because people thought I was being disrespectful.

Because your are being disrespectful. You are holding military personnel responsible for foreign policy they not only do not make, but must implement. That's the sacrifice they make.

American soldiers volunteer -- and have volunteered -- since 1775 because they believe in the concept of serving the civilian-elected leaders that make the policy. Not because those leaders were right. Not because those leaders were the smartest. Not because they agree with those leaders (far from it!).

But because those leaders were civilians, elected by civilians. The United States is the oldest Republic in the world -- by a wide margin over pretty much any other -- that has never, ever been ruled by its military -- never, ever. Most non-Americans (and too many Americans) don't realize what a powerful statement that is. And it was the reason why I almost went to OCS myself.

Furthermore, every day US military personnel have the "rules of engagement" thrown in their face by chicken-shit combatants who don't care about their own, same-citizen, same-nationality civilians that American soldiers do everything to protect as if they were American citizens. Other, NATO alliance soldiers act similarly too -- so to criticize the general actions of US soldiers is to criticize how NATO conducts its protection of not only its citizens, but civilians all over the world too.

I am perfectly willing to leave it alone now. But if there's going to be controversy and dissidence when we have an anti-military thread, there's going to be controversy and dissidence when we have a pro-military thread.

It's okay to be anti-US policy. It's okay to be anti-Bush. It's okay to be against any criminal, immoral or unethical actions taken by soldiers -- which do happen, even by American soldiers (extremely rare, but they do happen).

But to not only blanket all American soldiers like you do, but blame them for policies they have absolutely no control over or agree to, that's just really a form of hate. I would love to live in your idealistic world where no soldiers are required. But I'm sorry, they are a necessary evil of protecting the interests of a people -- who elect their leaders, who are also civilians.

If that's a problem, don;t start the thread. This isn't just an American board. We have lots of members from other places, and much of the rest of the world like myself is very angry with the American military and those directing them.

Why are you angry with the American military? You have not stated 1 thing that has anything to do with our military, only our policies. I will defend your right to complain about the US leadership, it's policies, etc... But why oh why do you attribute decisions to our military that have nothing to do with them?!

Did you follow anything about the whole Rumsfeld fiasco?

I have never, ever seen any complaints about the US military directly other than pure envy of its capability. The fact that US citizens and US allies (including by and for NATO) can and will be saved by US Marines and US Navy power within 24 hours (if not sooner). As a new American citizen, you should apprciate that is a very safe feeling.

Not everyone makes the distinction between army man and politician. Some believe in free will.

Then you are just beyond ignorant. Sorry Fox, but you are really too ignorant to even comment further.

"Free will" goes out the door when you don the uniform. "Free will" is why other countries have become military dictatorships, and the US has not. I honestly hope you read up on the concept of "free will" and how it does NOT apply to military chain of command and the rules of engagement.

That's because not everyone thinks pulling on the khakis and firing weapons in foreign lands is a gesture to be proud of.

Again, you're beyond ignorant if you think that is what military service is about. I hope you honestly meet a US military commander some day and talk to him. He will set you straight on what military service means.

What you suggest is to implement utter anarchy in a military, one that would quickly take over the government. Because that is exactly what has happened in virtually EVERY SINGLE REPUBLIC in its history *EXCEPT* the United States.

So like I've said twice, go back to talking about who is military and what your ranks were and tours of duty were, and about the guys that have fallen while serving "freedom", and I'll leave you to it. If you think I'm being disrespectful, read Georges post to me. If you think I'm disrescpectful know that I am NINETY EIGHT PERCENT holding back the true strength of my feelings about this topic.

And that 98% is utterly NOT-APPLICABLE to military service. That's the point -- a point you keep trying to argue against with simplistic, idealistic and rather ignorant points in comparison. You cannot even stop to grasp what virtually 98% of us are saying!

What you propose would dump the US right into a military dictatorship. That's not a theory, THAT'S A FACT! Any basic military curriculum taught in the US will teach you this fact over and over, covering just about every Democracy, Republic and other "Free Will" action by military personnel since the beginning of recorded history.

The military. I have nothing more to say, though. Do you guys? Or would you like to continue to talk about how disrespectful and unAmerican and foolish and naive and insane I am?

I didn't call you "unAmerican," although your failure to understand how and what the US is founded on continues to show that you don't respect the basic foundations of the American nation -- a concept that may not be popular with mainstream media, but is very much a very deep and intellectual debate in history.

Go back to patting each other on the back, it's what this thread is for. I will leave you to it. And I will start that other "anti-military" thread one of these days, and watch what happens. It's futile. I have nothing more to say. Y'all leave it alone, I leave it alone. Everyone's happy.

It's not about "patting each other on the back."

It's about not turning the US into just another two-bit military dictatorship.

Fox, honestly, whether it's your "let's all hold hands and share the wealth" or "soldiers have a moral responsibility to defy their leaders," you are one damn idealistic fool that doesn't realize the utmost damage your ideas would cause and DESTROY this nation.

 

[Philbert]

Because in America - and most of the people who are pissed off are American - free speech only works until you start criticinzing the military. I wasn't even trying to do that to start with in this post, I was just asking to hear about the negative side of things out there in Iraq. Apparently, "support our troops" isn't an American saying - it's an American rule.QUOTE]

I get so weary with some of the silly rhetoric I read here...or anywhere I read/hear such sophmoric drivel.
Growing up, children are encouraged to say whatever they come up with as an exercise...like in Sunday school or the like.
Then they are shown the best way to express themselves; as in use the truth as a source, not a weapon...etc.
Here, let me try to help...
FREE SPEECH is not a RIGHT...it is a PRIVELEGE!
Free speech means not losing your life or liberty at the hands of authority, merely for expressing a contrary opinion.
If you free speechly tell my kid she is a stupid little git...I'll freel speechly return the pain you gave her as MY free speech. Any idiot knows that accountability is the greatness of courageous disagreement; you say or write what you want, and others then react as they see fit. It's not a free ride to say what you want anytime you want without the consequential reactions of others.
You diss the Pres, O.K., we'll find some who agree and some who don't. You diss the men and women who willingly trust the good offices of their leaders to make the decisions, and put their asses in harms way for a greater good than just what they want, that's offensive free speech and we will despise your lack of understanding and your insult to the courage it takes to be young and still risk it all.
If a 6 year old asked me why I liked to have sex, and will I describe it, I wouldn't because they wouldn't know what to do with the answer. Their limited knowledge would make an understanding impossible, and would demean the whole experience to me, as well as making me feel really lame for even trying.
Telling you about what it feels like ( being a warrior) is even more aggravating , your words show almost no awareness of the wholeness of the situation, and would most likely be merely an opportunity for you to come up with another lame and way off point free speech. (Who would pay for that silly stuff, anyway? )
Have some class, and post where you have something to actually add to a discussion; this thread is not a place for you or anyone else who doesn't relate to the military experience.
You can go where you aren't wanted, that's freedom; you will then be subjected to the reactions of the other equally free people whom you annoy.
And whether you believe in God, Crom, the concept of Karma, or just plain consequences of actions, there will always be a price to pay for knowingly doing wrong.


(Prof Voluptuary: I found your post...dare I say?...inspiring. Well put, once again!:thumbsup: )

 

[Roughneck]

One word: Vietnam
Never again will US soldiers be treated by Americans so poorly for merely serving their country as best as they could.

I wept when I read this.

It's happening today too.
People don't fucking care.
There are hundreds upon thousands of those stories being written for this war.
As they were written for our wars in the past.

You have a PM incoming Prof...

cheers,

 

[Member2019]

The advocates of rhetoric and counter-rhetoric ...

I wept when I read this. It's happening today too. People don't fucking care.
There are hundreds upon thousands of those stories being written for this war.
As they were written for our wars in the past.

The advocates of rhetoric and counter-rhetoric will use "the soldier" to represent their agenda(s) to their liking, no matter how poorly positively or negatively that is and remote from what "the soldier" actually represents.

"The soldier" has nothing to do with politics, agenda or rhetoric. He just is an implement of a Republic, without free will or the right to question his orders as long as they do not violate the rules of engagement.

 

[Roughneck]

Re: Why the US is the oldest Republic that has NEVER been ruled by its military ...

It's okay to be anti-US policy. It's okay to be anti-Bush. It's okay to be against any criminal, immoral or unethical actions taken by soldiers -- which do happen, even by American soldiers (extremely rare, but they do happen).

But to not only blanket all American soldiers like you do, but blame them for policies they have absolutely no control over or agree to, that's just really a form of hate.

Only those who have "seen the elephant" know the intense emotions one faces in combat. No matter what emotion one experiences in such an environment, the intensity is at times overwhelming. For someone who has never been there to make a judgment that switches the blame for this debacle onto the backs of the soldiers, is just wrong – dead wrong. Not one Soldier, Marine, Sailor or Airman has killed as many innocent people as this administration has.

What I fear is about to happen in this country is a return to the dynamics of the Vietnam era where a nation finds itself unwilling to confront a criminal government that it previously supported, when the frustration of an un-winnable war with its attendant casualties and atrocities begins to overwhelm the senses. Instead of directing its anger towards the criminals in government, the nation instead attacks its soldiers.

When you have stood and looked at the bloody mess that just a few minutes ago was your friend, then you can criticize. When you look into the eyes of locals who knew where an IED was concealed, after it has just taken the lives of your friends, and do not have an almost uncontrollable desire to kill them, then you can pass judgment on those who have. When you have looked into the eyes of a friend who has just had his body literally cut in half and listen to him beg you to kill him because he does not want to be half-a-man, then you can condemn.

The problem, as I see it, is this nation of cowards, who, rather than confront their own culpability in supporting a criminal government, seeks instead to find a scapegoat on whom to heap the blame, finding a convenient target in those who wear the uniform.

When you send them into the jaws of Hell...

cheers,

 

[Roughneck]

Okay, well since we're still on this topic - about this "nation of cowards".

You picked on "Nation of cowards" but ignored:

When you have stood and looked at the bloody mess that just a few minutes ago was your friend, then you can criticize. When you look into the eyes of locals who knew where an IED was concealed, after it has just taken the lives of your friends, and do not have an almost uncontrollable desire to kill them, then you can pass judgment on those who have. When you have looked into the eyes of a friend who has just had his body literally cut in half and listen to him beg you to kill him because he does not want to be half-a-man, then you can condemn.

?


Do you still have doubts as to why others think you are being disrespectful?

I don't believe any of that bullshit baloney about "securing our freedoms" and all that - so your simplistic rhetoric doesn't work with me.

Fox - as much as I share your disdain for war, as much as I dislike the Army and as much as I hate the State --- Exercise of ones rights comes with being responsible for them.

You freely choose to exercise your rights but consistently fail to be responsible for them.


Your "opinions" about soldiers don't really faze me much - I've had and endured worse. It's your casual demeanor about dead-serious issues - coupled with a complete and utter lack of knowledge about even the very basics of the system/project/policy that you are criticizing; is what I find appalling!

You are morally inconsistent.

cheers,

 

[KungFuDude]

I don't blame the government for this.

You don't? Thats odd. Who do you think has set the policy over there? Jane from down the street?

You need to start blaming from the top down. Not the other way around. It's exactly how the military is commanded. FROM THE TOP DOWN. Private Nash in L company 2/8 Inf is NOT to blame for the plight of the Iraqi people.

To sign up. To board the plane or ship. To obey the orders. You say they don't have a choice? They give up that choice when they sign up? To hell with that. The choice is always there. The choice is always there.

You have no allegiances. That much is obvious. But do you have any honor? Hmm, I wonder with statements like this.

To blame anyone else but NOT the hand that pulls the trigger is illogical. And I think you HAVE to be brainwashed to a point to think that no blame at all lies with the man behind the gun, no matter what his position, job, duties, rank, etc. And since I don't think American points of view are any more or less valid than non American nations' points of view... and the fact that this really is a specifically American idea, that soldiers are heroes and that the blood is never on their hands - sure the media in other places feeds us that sometimes, at the whim of the state, but we don't SWALLOW it and so they generally don't bother - does not lend any particular credence to it.

We've been through this before. Seriously, go back to 1969. Start a drum circle and preach this to the hippie masses. This is old anti-soldier Vietnam war nonsense. Nobody in this century is listening.

"Old men wage wars. Young men fight them."

Peace.

 

[Mariner85]

I'm in the Merchant Marine, which is non-combat, and non-military (so some military veterans might not necessarily like me right off the bat for commenting on this). But I worked with military personnel in the delivering of their supplies and equipment, along with supporting national infrastructure by delivering goods between ports. I feel that the blame does go from 'the top down' but I do not believe it goes, 'all the way down.'

The streaks of blame should dry up and disappear at the extreme top of the military command and the lower levels of the political side of the spectrum, if anywhere. The enlisted men and the officers volunteered to be there, whether through enlisting or joining and attending OCS or a military academy, but it is not their fault that the war started to begin with. I could not picture saying anything anti-war to a common soldier or sailor (other services included), and feeling proud of myself.... that's just too easy to do, and in all honesty I think most people who do it are too afraid to protest the proper way and see them as easy targets. I respect them for being there, and certainly don't blame them for anything that's happened since 2001 (or 2003 if we talk about the Iraq War.)

 

[Roughneck]

I'm in the Merchant Marine, which is non-combat, and non-military (so some military veterans might not necessarily like me right off the bat for commenting on this).

Merchies are cool with me. Harmless little pets, really!

I'm not so sure about my buddies in the Navy though :tongue:

Prof V and RN constantly claim that there is no reason to blame the troops for anything. Of course I blame the government. Of course I blame the commanders. Of course I blame the American people, for voting into power the leaders who cause these wars and for being apathetic about them at times to an extreme, or following blindly. And for not doing anything enough to stop it - and I could myself among that group. But for me to blame everyone except the men and women who pull the triggers and do the dirty work, for me, would be illogical and would indicate that I, too, had been brainwashed or misled or indoctrinated into thinking there was something honourable about killing or dying for a country against another country... and into thinking that those who actually do the killing should be the only ones exonerated from those murders.

You know, for someone who never served a day in uniform - you seem to know an awful lot about killing and dying for your country. For all the moaning you do about the US and it's "illegal" wars - I don't hear as much complaining from you about other nations and their "illegal" wars.

When you have stood and looked at the bloody mess that just a few minutes ago was your friend, then you can criticize. When you look into the eyes of locals who knew where an IED was concealed, after it has just taken the lives of your friends, and do not have an almost uncontrollable desire to kill them, then you can pass judgment on those who have. When you have looked into the eyes of a friend who has just had his body literally cut in half and listen to him beg you to kill him because he does not want to be half-a-man, then you can condemn.

cheers,

 

[Philbert]

Y'know, most people begin life thinking the whole universe starts from their belly button and radiates outward...the rest of us are just "spear carriers" in their private action-adventure movie.
After all, Fox spent a whole month in Tanzinia hanging out with the poor folk; and he has been to Iranian discos!
Fortunately, some people continue the journey to self knowledge we begin at birth and actually gain some insight outside of their personal interests...I've met Afghan mullahs and Seattle shopkeepers with a truly universal viewpoint, and yet many world travellers who never "leave home" (at least intellectually) manage to pass through the Valley of Death and see great shopping opportunities.
They will always be with us, our "children" who never progress beyond immediate self interest; the best we can do is let them stay occupied with their reindeer games and keep them from underfoot.

 

[Roughneck]

Bringing thread back to topic:

How many are familiar with this painting??

The story of the artist who drew the painting


cheers,

 

[georges]

Bringing thread back to topic:
How many are familiar with this painting??
The story of the artist who drew the painting
cheers,

Me (despite not American and not living in U.S.A but had visited it several times), my 2 uncles and my cousins who live in U.S.A.

 

[Mariner85]

Merchies are cool with me. Harmless little pets, really!

I'm not so sure about my buddies in the Navy though :tongue:
cheers,

I'll drink to that :glugglug:



To put any blame on a person who has to pull the trigger without having ever been the one put in that position is an incredible disrespect to those who are out there. I imagine the person as a civilian, then enlisting, attending basic training and schools, and eventually finding themselves in that position, the position of being in combat. I cannot even begin to imagine the fear, the confusion, the smell and sound of it. I remember back in 1998 when I first saw Saving Private Ryan in theaters. I walked out of there shaking... I felt like a different person, and that was just from a movie. Imagine real life??

 

[louciano]

Was active army for 4 years now Air National Gaurd(I know I know its basicly being a civilian but someone has to fill that slot )

 

[pathfinder]

Medically retired. Lost my leg in Afghanistan in 2001. I was a Staff Sergeant in the Army.

and no... I haven't stump humped anyone.

 

[member006]

Bringing thread back to topic:

How many are familiar with this painting??

The story of the artist who drew the painting


cheers,

I am, I had it as my desktop for a long time. When my computer crashed I lost it. Its back on just now, thanks. It is the single most moving piece of art I've ever seen, other than the snow sculpture of the tired fireman done for "911".

http://wildaboutfowl.com/Snow sculpture2.JPG


LL:hatsoff:

 

[Roughneck]

Was active army for 4 years now Air National Gaurd(I know I know its basicly being a civilian but someone has to fill that slot )

Weekend Warrior, eh?

Just kiddin'!
Dang! Active grunt to reserve prop-pusher? How do you sruvive?

Medically retired. Lost my leg in Afghanistan in 2001. I was a Staff Sergeant in the Army.

Sorry about the leg, Staff Sergeant

You look after yerself, y'hea'?

From one sergeant to another,
cheers

I am, I had it as my desktop for a long time. When my computer crashed I lost it. Its back on just now, thanks. It is the single most moving piece of art I've ever seen, other than the snow sculpture of the tired fireman done for "911".

http://wildaboutfowl.com/Snow sculpture2.JPG


LL

Thanks for the link LL - it just replaced my desktop wallpaper (I'm a volunteer fire fighter in our town). I have the "reflections" picture framed in my study.


cheers,
:hatsoff:

 

[pathfinder]

Sorry about the leg, Staff Sergeant
You look after yerself, y'hea'?
From one sergeant to another,
cheers

I certainly am. Since my accident I've been in school for my 4-year degree thanks to the VA. Plus we've had two kids. I can't complain most of the time. It's been more of an inconvenience in physical terms but has certainly opened up a lot of doors and certainly broadened my awareness.