And even if. Why lower yourself, as a nation or an individual, onto that uncivilized level. I thought the taliban were the uncivilized ones, here. Let´s not imitate them.
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12 U.S. soldiers face trial after Afghan civilians 'were killed for sport and...
- Thread starter Ulysses31
- Start date
And even if. Why lower yourself, as a nation or an individual, onto that uncivilized level. I thought the taliban were the uncivilized ones, here. Let´s not imitate them.
Come on guys, let's not start dreaming here...war is war, there is no civility in war because war is all about killing the enemy. Now, killing is not as easy as people make it seems, especially when the fear of dying is also present. The sensitive thing here for us, the spectators, is to get ready to hear a lot of fucked up stories about what soldier x and soldier y did to enemy a and enemy be, or worse, to civilian p and civilian q (after all there is no war that goes on without civilian casualties, in fact, killing civilians is a war tactic, it always has been).
My point being, let's not judge the soldiers...we should all have been aware that things like this would happen the moment 'we' shipped the boys over to that land (where they would each go crazy given the experiences they've been through). That doesn't mean that they don't have to pay though, put them in jail or whatever but let's not behave like we didn't see this coming.
My point being, let's not judge the soldiers...we should all have been aware that things like this would happen the moment 'we' shipped the boys over to that land (where they would each go crazy given the experiences they've been through). That doesn't mean that they don't have to pay though, put them in jail or whatever but let's not behave like we didn't see this coming.
This war was supposed to be about removing the oppressive Taliban regime and bringing peace and liberty to the Afghan people, incidents like this only push the west further away from their goal and are the best recruitment tool the Taliban and Al-Qeada could ever hope for. And it's ridiculous to think that we sent troops over there expecting them to go insane, that suggests inadequate mental training or resistance from a population that we thought needed our help but don't actually want us there. And your assertion that 'killing civilians is a war tactic' is not something the coalition troops should be practising, we're not the Waffen SS
Well, what else would it mean if not those things?
This war was supposed to be about removing the oppressive Taliban regime and bringing peace and liberty to the Afghan people, incidents like this only push the west further away from their goal and are the best recruitment tool the Taliban and Al-Qeada could ever hope for. And it's ridiculous to think that we sent troops over there expecting them to go insane, that suggests inadequate mental training or resistance from a population that we thought needed our help but don't actually want us there. And your assertion that 'killing civilians is a war tactic' is not something the coalition troops should be practising, we're not the Waffen SS
and believe me man, I fully agree with what you're saying, but that "supposed to" explains it all mate. "We" overestimated the troops, "we" didn't account for reality. I mean, dude, do you really think that there exists mental training that can prepare anyone (especially soldiers as young and immature as those 20 year olds) for the realities of war? Especially a war where you can barely differentiate soldiers from civilians? That forces me to picture a situation where a war instrutor will tell the soldiers:
"Trust no one or you'll die!!" - for motivational purposes.
and on the next war "class" the other instructor tells them:
"By all means do not harm any civilians, if you see a child with a gun aiming at you don't shoot at her/him." - for civil and war purposes.
I can bet on a lot of cash that only a few would do their best to follow both of the above instructions...and from those few most would die because of the implications of what each "war instructor" has asked them to do.
You say that "it's ridiculous to think that we sent troops over there expecting them to go insane", but frankly I say that it's ridiculous to think that the US sent troops over there expecting them to be more than just soldiers.
Can't be a soldier and human (at the same time) for a very long time when there is an enemy who's objective is simply to kill you, unless you want to die.
As for my assertion that "killing civilians is a war tactic", I did not mean to make use of it to portray what is right but to portray what is real. The fact is that being a coalition troop is pretty much suicide when the other side's troops (talibans) don't have that "coalition" handicap (and it is a handicap when you think about it). The US troops are not supposed to be the Waffen SS...but if they become like them, let's let our wisdom prevent us from being surprised...as unpleasant surprises are never welcome.
Guess it means our govts sent our forces there under the pretense that we would be welcomed by the Afghans as a liberating force, instead so many of them are fighting us (The Taliban were pushed out over 5 years ago) that the soldiers are beginning to realise that they are simply not wanted there despite what Karzai and his few cronies say (they make up 1% of the Afghan populus). I blame the govts (where are Bush and Blair, Rumsfeldt and Hoon now? Why haven't they got anything to say, they started all of this) for putting our troops in harms way.
Don't get me wrong I have a great respect for the military and the soldiers that do a hard and dangerous job. I hate when politicians send them out for their own perverse reasons (ie oil, money, defence contracts etc) and then lie to the troops and tell them they are protecting their country or liberating another people from tyranny and oppression. But I also can't stand these bad apples who go around murdering civilians in cold blood, they embarass their country as well as the integrity of their unit and fellow troops who not only lose the trust of the local people but may also face revenge attacks, they need to be charged and harshly punished to maintain our moral and ethical high ground. When US troops ented France in WWII or Kosovo in the 90s they were met by cheering crowds and were truly a liberating force, you can't say the same about Afghanistan or even Iraq, if we stick our troops in a country where most of the people seem to want them dead they don't stand a chance and in a heightened state of fear and anger these types of incidents will only become more frequent. Let the Afghans lead their backwards existence, they'll revolt when the time is right, it's not our job to decide it for them :2 cents:
Right. It's like watching an episode of COPS. The police come to the door because a woman has been beaten by her husband. The wife decides not to file charges and decides to keep living with him. The police know they can't do anything else. It's sad, but after a few visits they know it's up to the victim to "revolt" and stop being a victim.
There's only so much that any outsiders can do.
There's only so much that any outsiders can do.
Well...eventually it is what will happen to the boys, they'll be tried and dealt with accordingly. I can't say I don't feel like they (the troops) where somewhat set up though. I really pity them bro...but c'est la vie. They could've resisted the urge to act like cowards, but they didn't...therefore they made their beds and now they have to lie in it. I do agree with your last statement, and it's been years since I've wondered why the US didn't think like that in the first place. Instead of trying to be heroes, couldn't they just let the middle east decide when they should rebel?
Kind of reminds you of that movie "The day the earth stood still." when you really think about it doesn't it? Let the other countries grow at their own pace, don't impose freedom.
All hell will break loose if those pictures get out
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...fghans-posed-pictures-corpses-body-parts.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...fghans-posed-pictures-corpses-body-parts.html
ChefChiTown
The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
You mean, people got killed in a war? OH NOES!!!
Give the soldiers involved over to the Afghani people and let them do what they want with 'em. Should be a win-win for both sides.
I´m very surprised I can agree with almost all of the statements here . Normally I can not.
1st Trident : You are RIGHT , a lot of them are indeed nothing but BEARDED APES.
2nd just to mention : sualcalay, Ulysses, Moonchild
I see in your postings that you want the US to move out of Afghanistan . You´re right too, because in my eyes the US cannot win this confrontation and in my eyes there is no NEED to stay in this country. Okok, one * need * would be there : Catch Osama Bin Bullshit ! I wonder the US didn´t find him yet ...or should I not wonder ??
But why else to stay there, WHO asked you to move into that country with all military power ? WHY is the USA playin always the *policeman of the planet* .... why not let other countries leave alone and fix their probs. by themselves ?? Maybe cause the US needs to get the weapons-industry running ??
But nooooooo, the USA must * help * , for example with 5K dead soldiers in Iraq .... where Bush-Baby mentioned : * Booohoooo, they got weapons of mass-destruction * ...and there wasn´t even ONE to find. .... but there was OIL !! Sure, that pays the 5000 killed soldiers, ...or NOT ?? Bush should be getting to court, my pov .
The US should move their military azzes outta ANY country they´re still in, ( Israel too ) , and should let them fix their probs . I think, your forces are there to defend YOUR nation at YOUR borders , the US has a lot of homemade problems to work on. Bush-Baby wasn´t even able to help Louisiana when cyclone catherina rised up .
Otherwise as a 56 year ol German azzhole I´m thankful to the US to help out getting Hitler kicked off, ....I wouldn´t be really interested to stay now with my bones at the Wolga - river freezing my azz off .
1st Trident : You are RIGHT , a lot of them are indeed nothing but BEARDED APES.
2nd just to mention : sualcalay, Ulysses, Moonchild
I see in your postings that you want the US to move out of Afghanistan . You´re right too, because in my eyes the US cannot win this confrontation and in my eyes there is no NEED to stay in this country. Okok, one * need * would be there : Catch Osama Bin Bullshit ! I wonder the US didn´t find him yet ...or should I not wonder ??
But why else to stay there, WHO asked you to move into that country with all military power ? WHY is the USA playin always the *policeman of the planet* .... why not let other countries leave alone and fix their probs. by themselves ?? Maybe cause the US needs to get the weapons-industry running ??
But nooooooo, the USA must * help * , for example with 5K dead soldiers in Iraq .... where Bush-Baby mentioned : * Booohoooo, they got weapons of mass-destruction * ...and there wasn´t even ONE to find. .... but there was OIL !! Sure, that pays the 5000 killed soldiers, ...or NOT ?? Bush should be getting to court, my pov .
The US should move their military azzes outta ANY country they´re still in, ( Israel too ) , and should let them fix their probs . I think, your forces are there to defend YOUR nation at YOUR borders , the US has a lot of homemade problems to work on. Bush-Baby wasn´t even able to help Louisiana when cyclone catherina rised up .
Otherwise as a 56 year ol German azzhole I´m thankful to the US to help out getting Hitler kicked off, ....I wouldn´t be really interested to stay now with my bones at the Wolga - river freezing my azz off .
ForumModeregulator
Believer In GregCentauro
okay so its really simple. None of us were there, so none of us can really know what happened.
But we do know that:
Murdering civilians is not cool. Period.
Having to kill anyone for any circumstance is not cool. Period.
But we do know that:
Murdering civilians is not cool. Period.
Having to kill anyone for any circumstance is not cool. Period.
I´m not defending the actions neither, but ... let me find the right words ... the action is *somehow understandable * , especially if the actor has seen ( live ) pics like this or was in a situation like this.
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Who needs Assange and Branning when you have these guys
Two US soldiers charged with murdering civilians shown posing with body in photos leaked by Der Spiegel newspaper
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2011/03/20113216812327175.html
Two US soldiers charged with murdering civilians shown posing with body in photos leaked by Der Spiegel newspaper
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2011/03/20113216812327175.html
vodkazvictim
Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Who are the guys in that photo?
^^THIS!
Assange is unravelling quite fast these days.Who needs Assange and Branning when you have these guys
Two US soldiers charged with murdering civilians shown posing with body in photos leaked by Der Spiegel newspaper
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2011/03/20113216812327175.html
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