I am amazed in post after post throughout the board how ride and dumb your comments are and how few people actually point that out. Even the YankeeFan guy lets you roll all over him. You strike me as a really crude bully and I think you should back off and let other people express their views without crushing them every chance you get. Did your mommy not hug you enough when you were a child? Or are you still a child?
1 dead and 9 hurt in the running of the bulls
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I am amazed in post after post throughout the board how ride and dumb your comments are and how few people actually point that out. Even the YankeeFan guy lets you roll all over him. You strike me as a really crude bully and I think you should back off and let other people express their views without crushing them every chance you get. Did your mommy not hug you enough when you were a child? Or are you still a child?
Re: The problem ...
The point being that you can compare traditions, including their entire history and evolution. Mankind is actually more alike than different, and many foundations of various, independent traditions actually have more similarities than differences. I had a cultural anthropology instructor in college who actually used analytical methods to show similarities between continents with associative sets, and it was rather interesting how the foundations were the same.
However, in this case, there were many apples-to-oranges. Objectively speaking, stoning a woman for punishment has nothing to do with someone choosing to run with the bulls. Judicial traditions versus individual freedoms are hardly comparable.
Just it's media.
In fact, that's an ideal example of our media. Every time someone brings up the failures of our immigration system, people call that person a "bigot" or "racist" or "anti-immigration." Doesn't matter that we're actually pro-immigration, and want to enforce laws and make sure the immigrant is paid fairly, pays taxes, etc... for their own benefit, as much as ours. And we are mad as hell at the Americans -- not the immigrants -- who actually cause the problem.
Right now the US is building slums of illegal residents and a common attitude in cultural ignorance is sweeping all sides because of the sheer number of illegal residents that do exist in the US. It's very scary, from all sides of view, that we let it get to this point. Especially considering the sheer number of violence caused by illegal residents who have no opportunity, and the citizens powerless to stop them, or the citizens who abuse them.
Obviously you never studied calculus. It allows for comparison of many dimensions, including time, in an equation or system of equal equations. "Snapshots" in time are what algebra is about.
The point being that you can compare traditions, including their entire history and evolution. Mankind is actually more alike than different, and many foundations of various, independent traditions actually have more similarities than differences. I had a cultural anthropology instructor in college who actually used analytical methods to show similarities between continents with associative sets, and it was rather interesting how the foundations were the same.
However, in this case, there were many apples-to-oranges. Objectively speaking, stoning a woman for punishment has nothing to do with someone choosing to run with the bulls. Judicial traditions versus individual freedoms are hardly comparable.
And in the same regard, we're not comparing apples-to-apples here either. One was a choice, the other was punishment.
To me, these things are simple. And the best way to deal with them is to be objective. It doesn't require me to criticize an entire culture, in any direction. Arguments are best left to pure objective ones, instead of the introduction of subjective values.
It's actually more like 25% annoying the other 75%. That's how our media is designed. Once you recognize the US media is designed for advertising and, therefore, ratings, and makes stories into complete microcosms of "the world is coming to an end and the US needs to do something about it," you realize it's not Americans you have a problem with.Well, I didn't say that all Americans are that way because I'm well aware that not all Americans are this way. Problem is, that the ones that annoy half the world (and half of the US, too, for that matter) are often those you can hear loudest.
Just it's media.
I was referring to how the US is turning any "squatter" into a citizen, and how the US' own policies and abuse by its citizens are to blame (not the "squatter").I'm not gonna start with this one or I'll be sitting here for the next two days straight.
In fact, that's an ideal example of our media. Every time someone brings up the failures of our immigration system, people call that person a "bigot" or "racist" or "anti-immigration." Doesn't matter that we're actually pro-immigration, and want to enforce laws and make sure the immigrant is paid fairly, pays taxes, etc... for their own benefit, as much as ours. And we are mad as hell at the Americans -- not the immigrants -- who actually cause the problem.
Right now the US is building slums of illegal residents and a common attitude in cultural ignorance is sweeping all sides because of the sheer number of illegal residents that do exist in the US. It's very scary, from all sides of view, that we let it get to this point. Especially considering the sheer number of violence caused by illegal residents who have no opportunity, and the citizens powerless to stop them, or the citizens who abuse them.
Re: The problem ...
According to the methodology I was talking about you can very well compare traditions, but the comparison can have different results. An "equation" to us is one possible result. You see, the usage of the words differs.
The problem is however, that human beings don't "function" very easy. Once one factor or element in the system is changed, the whole system is open to interpretation when coming in contact with those of a system that has changed in a different direction, using different symbols or messages. Even if the basis is still the same. "Rites of passage" for example can have very different forms while bearing the same function and meaning. I think, that was what you were getting at, right?
But what you're describing is not that different from what other world powers or empires (like Rome for example) have experienced in the past. So I know where the comparison to Rome is coming from, even though it doesn't hold water in all regards.
Aaah, I see the misunderstanding. I approached this with the methods I learned (hermeneutics for example), which are of course not mathematical (as I'm not a mathematician). The words "equation" and "comparison" have different meanings in our methodology. But know as I see where you're coming from, I can assure you: we mean the same thing.
According to the methodology I was talking about you can very well compare traditions, but the comparison can have different results. An "equation" to us is one possible result. You see, the usage of the words differs.Yes, that is absolutely correct.
The problem is however, that human beings don't "function" very easy.
Once one factor or element in the system is changed, the whole system is open to interpretation when coming in contact with those of a system that has changed in a different direction, using different symbols or messages. Even if the basis is still the same. "Rites of passage" for example can have very different forms while bearing the same function and meaning. I think, that was what you were getting at, right?Yeah, well, seems we're in the same boat there. Meaning: looks like we agree.
Honestly, I don't think anything is simple when it comes to entities created by man (may it be the running with the bulls as part of a traditional festivity or just the etiquette of where to blow your nose). That's what makes my field so interesting. Objectivity is always the right choice, but it also has its limits. One should always be aware of that. Culture is not mathematics. That objectivity is always objective, is an illusion.
Well, I guess I lack the first hand experience there, because I live some six to nine hours (in time zones, depending on where in the us you live) away. I've never stayed in the US over longer periods of time, even though the American history and culture is a big part of my field.
I see your point and it certainly is a valid one. We here deal differently with this subject and don't think to have that big of a problem with it, which sometimes makes it a problem again (as the case of the pregnant Islamic Egyptian woman, who was stabbed in court by a racist Christian Russian two weeks ago, shows). Let's say we're not that serious about it, but we're seriously concerned.
But what you're describing is not that different from what other world powers or empires (like Rome for example) have experienced in the past. So I know where the comparison to Rome is coming from, even though it doesn't hold water in all regards.
J. Friday
Banned
Re: The problem ...
I got your nationality mixed up, sorry.
But I disagree with the idea that most people don't celebrate traditions blindly and religiously. Christmas is celebrated with all the gift-giving, singing, eggnog, etc. but people hardly ever ask themselves why. What's the deal with the ritual? My parents are strict Protestants but they don't do any of that stuff. The only thing they do is give gifts, and sometimes even then it's only on the day after Christmas, when you can buy things for cheap. The whole point of understanding is to question things, rather than follow them blindly. And most people follow traditions blindly in all countries (U.S., U.K., and Germany included).
And I disagree with you on the comparison between the Running of the Bulls and eating at McDonald's. In the Spanish festival the bull is publicly humiliated and tortured to death for hours, while the cows in McDonalds's are quietly lined up and killed quickly. You're comparing torturing something to death and for amusement to killing something quickly for food, and that's way off. For example, the Nazis were not merely hated for their killing of millions of innocent people, they were also hated for the cruel way they killed off millions of people: publicly hanging people to set an example; making women (sometimes pregnant women) strip down to their underwear and run around in the freezing cold before executing them; the gas chambers; slave labor; throwing slices of meat at a hundred-sized group of Russian prisoners and gleefully watching them scramble for it; etc. All that is considered cruel, barbaric, and inhumane. On the other hand, when Stalin executed so many Russians in the years leading up to WWII, his executions were quick. The majority merely were shot. That's it. No public humiliations or tortures or anything. Granted, killing people like he did was wrong, but he never went as the far as the Nazis in the way they took glee from the killings.
Let's get back to your comparison of the bull festival and eating at McDonald's. The bull festival involves publicly torturing, humiliating, and degrading a strong animal for amusement and tradition. Eating at McDonalds involves quickly killing a bull for the purposes of consumption. If the Spanish wanted to eat bulls I would have no problem with it. Consuming bulls might be tasty and good for your health. But I don't agree with torturing a bull for the sake of amusement and tradition. That's where we have the difference.
We don't follow all traditions blindly and religiously. Many traditions are followed because they have become part of our respective way of life, some are followed because of a certain ritualistic lifestyle (which even human beings need, ask any physician, a live without any routines at all, no matter which ones, is not healthy), some are part of the process of growing up and becoming part of society etc. Of course some traditions are outlived and some traditions change. Nonetheless there are those (even amongst the outlived ones) that are worth preserving. Thanksgiving for example is a tradition hardly celebrated in Germany any more. But you don't see us mock the US for keeping up that tradition.
Well, I'm aware of the animal cruelty here, but that is not what this tradition is about, contrary to cock- or dog-fighting. Fighting bulls in the arena like a matador is different again. And I wouldn't even compare that to cock- or dog-fighting, because I don't see dog-fighting where a guy get's into the cage with two dogs.
I get your point, but I still don't get why you make such a fuzz. Normally, most Americans don't give a shit about the animals when they go to McDonalds or buy the cheapest possible burger meat out of the freezer at Walmart. But when an animal gets hurt in a traditional festivity in a foreign country, it's barbaric animal cruelty all of a sudden? Drop the double standards.
This is a completely different level. You are talking about cruelty among human beings, that has hardly anything to do with tradition, but is a legal practice that stems from an obsolete mindset. This is a prime example for legal practices that seem archaic and immoral to us, not of cultural traditions.
There is a difference, mind you.
What is offensive lies in the eyes of the beholder, what is inhumane is defined by the observers mindset. There is no objective rationalisation here, only the search for the lowest common denominator.
I'm kind getting fed up with the "ooh look, the crazy Japs are carrying wooden penises" and stuff like that. Make yourself clear that American traditions aren't the first and only ones and try to get your head around what happens in other countries.
It is very sad, that you think you don't need to respect other people's cultures and traditions. And all the while you still wonder, why there were people dancing in the streets in some countries when planes crashed into the World Trade Center? Even though that's a very sad thing to say (and I apologize for possibly offending the people I respect on this board), but take a hint. Respect and you will be respected, treat others with modesty and you will be treated with modesty.
And I'm not British, by the way, I'm German.
I got your nationality mixed up, sorry.
But I disagree with the idea that most people don't celebrate traditions blindly and religiously. Christmas is celebrated with all the gift-giving, singing, eggnog, etc. but people hardly ever ask themselves why. What's the deal with the ritual? My parents are strict Protestants but they don't do any of that stuff. The only thing they do is give gifts, and sometimes even then it's only on the day after Christmas, when you can buy things for cheap. The whole point of understanding is to question things, rather than follow them blindly. And most people follow traditions blindly in all countries (U.S., U.K., and Germany included).
And I disagree with you on the comparison between the Running of the Bulls and eating at McDonald's. In the Spanish festival the bull is publicly humiliated and tortured to death for hours, while the cows in McDonalds's are quietly lined up and killed quickly. You're comparing torturing something to death and for amusement to killing something quickly for food, and that's way off. For example, the Nazis were not merely hated for their killing of millions of innocent people, they were also hated for the cruel way they killed off millions of people: publicly hanging people to set an example; making women (sometimes pregnant women) strip down to their underwear and run around in the freezing cold before executing them; the gas chambers; slave labor; throwing slices of meat at a hundred-sized group of Russian prisoners and gleefully watching them scramble for it; etc. All that is considered cruel, barbaric, and inhumane. On the other hand, when Stalin executed so many Russians in the years leading up to WWII, his executions were quick. The majority merely were shot. That's it. No public humiliations or tortures or anything. Granted, killing people like he did was wrong, but he never went as the far as the Nazis in the way they took glee from the killings.
Let's get back to your comparison of the bull festival and eating at McDonald's. The bull festival involves publicly torturing, humiliating, and degrading a strong animal for amusement and tradition. Eating at McDonalds involves quickly killing a bull for the purposes of consumption. If the Spanish wanted to eat bulls I would have no problem with it. Consuming bulls might be tasty and good for your health. But I don't agree with torturing a bull for the sake of amusement and tradition. That's where we have the difference.
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