Why and how the US might shoot down a North Korean ballistic missile test

There's a lot of media ignorance on the recent activation of US missile defense systems. Most of it has to do with the fact that they don't understand both our Theater Missile Defense (TMD) and National Missile Defense (NMD) capabilities, and what we could and could not use. Missile defense is just a layered approach that is a general outgrowth of general air defense. It's not a "discrete" technology change from what we were doing before, but technology has allowed us to improve air defense in general.

Two major advances in the last 2 decades have allowed missile defense to become reality:
1. Significant sensor and detection improvements
2. Hit-to-kill guidance

#1 was just an outgrowth of our other military advancements in radar, command'n control and coordinated tracking. We build early, manually-operated early warning systems in space and on the ground (e.g., Alaska-Canada) to detect Soviet launches. More on the ground, SAM fire-control radars have become more and more automated when it comes to auto-detection and response to air threats. The result is that we have now built both an overlapping, but coordinated, mobile ground and well as space-based detection and tracking infrastructure that allows us to detect launches anywhere in the world, including "just over the horizon" on the battlefield. E.g., the radar and fire control system for PAC-3 and THAAD can detect and track much farther than the inceptors can -- giving the US Army on the ground the ability to "see everything," even if it's the Navy's Block IIA or Air Force's NMD that shoots it down.

#2 was proven a reality the second NASA proved you could dock two objects in space -- "hit a bullet with a bullet" -- that's literally what you do with launching two vehicles that will dock in orbit. Before then, engineers rolled their eyes at the sheer magnitutde of the precision required. Nowdays, our guidance systems on interceptors are able to calculate this in real-time, tens of minutes before they even approach the target, so this can be done in real-time. Proximity-fuse has always been a poor means of shooting down an aircraft, much less a ballistic missile, and hit-to-kill solves it far, far better. A major issue with Patriot was that even when got proximity and "hit," over 60% of the targets were still intact enough to cause damage. With PAC-3, that now drops to under 20%.

Again, going back, Patriot was designed for shooting down aircraft, not missiles. Patriot Advanced Capability (PAC) was designed for shooting down missiles. PAC-3 uses hit-to-kill to travel faster, hit harder and obliterate with pure kenetic energy, all while being smaller and cheaper to operate than Patriot or PAC-2. PAC-3 is the 3-7 mile, lower altitude interceptor.

Middle-range intercepters that cover high-altitude (10+ miles), but are not exo-atmospheric, include Theater High Altitute Air Defense (THAAD) and the Navy Block II missile. THAAD is also hit-to-kill solution that travels much, much faster than PAC-3. It uses a similiar, mobile deployment strategy with radar and fire control system "where needed" to protect American assets.

Also middle-range, Navy Block II missiles are older, proximity-fuse, largely designed to not only shoot down aircraft, but slower moving surface-to-surface missiles (with a Phalanx gatling gun being the "last resort" for the "last mile" before getting hit). But even though it was designed for more "down-range" intercept, their speed and distance make them also ideal as a complement to THAAD -- but on the sea. The integrated Navy Theater Wide (NTW) radar and fire control system is designed to allow a pair of US cruisers to defend not only the carrier group in-between, but allow the US Navy to defend land masses too!

E.g., parking a Aegis cruiser on each side of the 38th parallel, while PAC-3 and THAAD platforms on the ground, each do their part to discover, track and and knock down North Korean launch vehicles before they even get near South Korea.

Now what the media gets their panties in a bunch is NMD. They've stopped talking about TMD, because the damn thing works damn well (thanx to extensive funding under Clinton no less), and they've moved on to NMD. NMD wasn't moved on since Reagan, although R&D under Reagan built one hell of an inceptor! With another 20 years of track and fire control technology, NMD is a reality.

Where NMD differs from TMD is its exo-atmospheric nature. The concept behind NMD is to hit (and kill) a WMD on a MRBM or ICBM outside the atmosphere, because it's likely been armed at that point. Because if the TMD systems fail to knock down a launch during its boost phase (e.g., Aegis cruisers around and PAC-3/THAAD assets on the ground, Korea, the initial launch point), then it's less favorable for the TMD systems to attempt again on re-entry (e.g., PAC-3/THAAD assets in the US as the armed WMD is above our soil, the target of the missile) -- NMD "layer" becomes the ideal point of intercept.

NMD is very high velocity (approaching escape velocity, e.g., Mach 10+), which also makes hit-to-kill a necessity (while being the most effective at the same time). That also means probability of intercept goes down. The current 4 out of 7 intercept rate is typical -- sub-50% would not be unheard of. Which is you would launch multiple NMD interceptors to increase probability of hit -- and why NMD is only useful for limited defense (and not en-masse against China or a major superpower).

It's also why you also have TMD like PAC-3 and THAAD not only near the target point (e.g., on US soil) in case NMD misses (the "last resort"), but you put them near the launch point if you can. E.g., again, US Navy Theater Wide with Block II in the waters around and US Army radar and fire control with PAC-3 and THAAD on the ground in Korea. Layered defense -- each layer with multiple intercept attempts increasing probability.

Which is where the "real world" comes in. Right now, the US is extremely unlikely to attempt an intercept of any North Korean test. Why? Because the "most ideal" phase to shoot it down is at boost. I.e., knock the fucker down just as it hits Mach, well before it approach atmosphere exit and higher velocities. That would clearly be a violation of North Korean airspace and despite how we justified it, it would look bad. Which means that we're left with Alaska-based NMD and, as a "last resort," US-based TMD.

Which means the only scenario that we'd "knock it down" would be if the missile clearly has a trajectory that comes anywhere near the US. That's why the NMD and TMD radar and fire control systems have been activated. NTW and US Army TMD will track it as it leaves North Korea -- something we didn't have in 1998. At that point, the US will likely dismiss it as a threat and do little more than let NMD-based tracking take over and play simulatated intercepts.

However, if trajectory suggests it is a threat to the US or any of its allies, that's when NMD will launch multiple exo-atmosphere interceptors into near orbital trajectoris on sounding rockets. Mid-boost sounding, as the North Korean missile trajectory matures, an intercept will become a go/no-go decision. BTW, I'm sure a "no go" will still be taken as a "failure" or "attempt" because we merely launched the interceptors (even though they were not used). But if an intercept is decided on, and NMD fails, then it falls to TMD assets on the ground. And at that point, TMD will work. At the same time, TMD will intercept within 10 miles of altitude (it's very likely to work -- trust me, if not THAAD then definitely PAC-3!) and US/ally land, and North Korea will jump for joy that they can hit the US or one of its key allies.

Kinda ironic if you ask me!

I mean, if we believe it's on a trajectory to hit US/ally soil, and we intercept with NMD in space over international waters, we'll be lambasted for doing so. North Korea can fall back and claim it was a "space launch" even though we'll show it had no where near the exit velocity required, and was heading right towards US/ally soil. No one will understand the first thing about how NMD works, and why and where it must intercept exo-atmospherically (and not just above US/ally soil) -- let alone most people will say, "it was in space, it wasn't headed towards the US" not knowing the first thing about exit velocity and trajectories.

And if we fail to intercept with NMD, North Korea will violate our airspace and will get away with it (virtually no one but the UK will demand an apology with us) -- even if we intercept with TMD. NMD will look like a failure and no one will talk about how TMD did worked (just like they stopped talking about how TMD didn't work when it did again and again).

It's really a "no win" scenario for the US if North Korea fires a missle and it's on a trajectory towards US/ally soil. But we are activating it just in case there is that attempt -- accidental or otherwise. Last time I checked, North Korea (let alone nor does China, India, etc...) doesn't believe in installing flight termination systems -- so they can't blow it up if it boosts with an incorrect trajectory. But unlike in 1998, we now have the tools to shoot it down if it flies over Japan or other allies, let alone anywhere near US soil.
 
Christmas_Ape said:
Yeah, like having a million spoons, when all you really need is a spork.
Huh? I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying the irony wasn't in the combination of various TMD plus NMD. It was the irony that we can't just blast the missile shortly after lift-off (and make the North Korean's shit their pants) -- which is the ideal use of TMD!

Air defense is just like computer security. A firewall doesn't do its job on its own. You have to have "defense-in-depth" of many, overlapping, but complementary systems and software.
 
Prof Voluptuary said:
Huh? I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying the irony wasn't in the combination of various TMD plus NMD. It was the irony that we can't just blast the missile shortly after lift-off (and make the North Korean's shit their pants) -- which is the ideal use of TMD!

Air defense is just like computer security. A firewall doesn't do its job on its own. You have to have "defense-in-depth" of many, overlapping, but complementary systems and software.


But don't you think it's ironic to have a bunch of spoons when all you need is a spork?
 
Christmas_Ape said:
But don't you think it's ironic to have a bunch of spoons when all you need is a spork?
I'm still not understanding your analogy at all.
 
Personally I am puzzled as to why America needs to use this technology in the first place as they already have tactical SAM capability, even in allied nations (we saw how effective it was in the Iraq war). If the technology is designed for neuclear warfare, does that mean that America are turning their backs on the fabled "escalation of war" document they created after World War 2?

Also I don't believe that the threat from North Korea will amount to anything, as long as America doesn't do something stupid, like make a "pre-emptive" stike against them.

Then again, it could be the cold war all over again.

Are North Korea even within striking range of the US with their current capabilities? I know that China are, but America aren't worried about China.

You will notice how I have tried to answer this post with as many questions as possible. The reason for this is because "The" prof has already pwned me once and I don't want it to happen again.
 
Evolution, not revolution.

Barry1980 said:
Personally I am puzzled as to why America needs to use this technology in the first place as they already have tactical SAM capability, even in allied nations (we saw how effective it was in the Iraq war).
And that was PAC-3 in the 2003 Gulf War! 12 years later and 12x more effective than the 1991, original Patriot system designed in the late '70s (and for shooting down aircraft, not missiles).

Missile defense is "evolution." It's not "revolution." The confusion is that the media keeps saying two things:
1. It's new,
2. It doesn't work

That's utter bullshit. It's basically just new technologies applied to existing concepts. We go faster, more accurate and with a bigger (now kenetic) punch.

Barry1980 said:
If the technology is designed for neuclear warfare, does that mean that America are turning their backs on the fabled "escalation of war" document they created after World War 2?
In some ways, yes.

As much as "pre-emption" is talked about, missile defense is to avoid having to rely on "pre-emption" as much as "deterence." I'm sure if the US could develop an energy barrier around the US, it would. But that still doesn't help our allies or how we project our power to protect our allies and key, world resources. ;)

Barry1980 said:
Also I don't believe that the threat from North Korea will amount to anything, as long as America doesn't do something stupid, like make a "pre-emptive" stike against them.
"Capability" is rarely about actual "war."

First off, the ultimate goal of North Korea is to show they can hit the US with an MRBM or possible a true ICBM. If they accomplish that, they are now a threat to the US. And if they are a threat to the US, they can demand more "appeasement" than we've already given. They hate the existence of TMD and, even more so, NMD because it mitigates that threat.

Secondly, TMD is more about protecting American allies than America itself. The US can roll in NTW anywhere it's Navy can go, or Army TMD on any allies' soil. It shifts the strategic balance greatly in favor of US allies! The Chinese, the Iranians, the North Koreas and even the Russians hate it (although the Russians have been opening up to seeing us share the technology with them, like any other ally).

Third, NMD also protects against the "worst case scenario" that no President likes to talk about. It's been hinted in a few movies (e.g., Goldeneye) where a rogue state or nation destroys tens (if not hundreds) of trillions of dollars of US electronics and business infrastructure by detonating a nuclear warhead above US soil, but exo-atmospheric -- all while killing no one! How would the US President respond "strategically" if a 3rd world country (or a terrorist group it hosted) did that sort of "strategic" damage to our economy, but didn't kill anyone? It really only leaves the US three options: 1) ignore it and set the stage for someone to do it again (while our economy is is turmiol), 2) invade the offending country (which never proves very successful since WWII), or 3) nuke and kill people in response (because we can't damage their economy to "equivalent" effort) to "set an example" -- something we would instantly be berrated for. We'd like to avoid that scenario if at all possible -- and only NMD can do it!

Lastly, North Korea can (and does) export that missile technology to others.

Barry1980 said:
Then again, it could be the cold war all over again. Are North Korea even within striking range of the US with their current capabilities? I know that China are, but America aren't worried about China.
But we are worried about what China exports to others.

Barry1980 said:
You will notice how I have tried to answer this post with as many questions as possible. The reason for this is because "The" prof has already pwned me once and I don't want it to happen again.
If you haven't noticed, I avoid many areas where I don't have 1st person knowledge. But when I have 1st person knowledge, you'll find posts like these. I can't talk about what I did, but I'm sure even if I did, someone would say I'm "biased" anyway.

The media and international understanding of missile defense's evolution and what it is actually used for is based on Cold War views, because they are still thinking of Reagan-era statements. That's why they don't understand it and are wholly ignorant of why it exists. It's very real. It very much works. And it very much gives our country far more options post-Cold War than it would during it.

That's why Clinton pumped so much money into TMD and why W. fielded it. The missing piece is the NMD component, which W. is finally funding. It'll take another 10 years to perfect as well -- just like it did TMD.
 
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The terrorist wet dream ...

Prof Voluptuary said:
Third, NMD also protects against the "worst case scenario" that no President likes to talk about. It's been hinted in a few movies (e.g., Goldeneye) where a rogue state or nation destroys tens (if not hundreds) of trillions of dollars of US electronics and business infrastructure by detonating a nuclear warhead above US soil, but exo-atmospheric -- all while killing no one! How would the US President respond "strategically" if a 3rd world country (or a terrorist group it hosted) did that sort of "strategic" damage to our economy, but didn't kill anyone? It really only leaves the US three options: 1) ignore it and set the stage for someone to do it again (while our economy is is turmiol), 2) invade the offending country (which never proves very successful since WWII), or 3) nuke and kill people in response (because we can't damage their economy to "equivalent" effort) to "set an example" -- something we would instantly be berrated for. We'd like to avoid that scenario if at all possible -- and only NMD can do it!
Sorry to follow-up my own post, but I don't think people realize this is the "terrorist wet dream"

Get ahold of a launch vehicle or two with a nuke on it. Explode it over New York, Las Angeles or whatever it can reach. Plunge the entire capitalistic pig into a depression far worse than the first half of the 20th century. And kill no one!

Terrorists aren't into killing people because they want to, they are into killing people to terrorize the US and its protection of its way of life. If they can destroy the American way of life without killing anyone, they damn will!

How would the American President respond to that? "Deterence"? What "deterence"?!

Would we track down who's parts were used in the missile and "retaliate" against the provider's economy? Maybe Bejing? Or who says some of the parts aren't our own, smuggled from (not-so-well-controlled) allies or black market?

Of would we just nuke the 3rd world country that launched the system? And kill millions of people in realiation? That wouldn't do any good or have any "deterence," let alone we're left with our economy in shambles.

No, we'd probably do nothing and just totally plunge into chaos as a result of the event anyway. So that is not the scenario I want the President of the United State to have to deal with. So I'm mega-for NMD!

The US Space Command tracks all launches. At some point in the not-so-distant future, you will see the US start to shoot down any launches from any country that have trajectories towards the US or its allies that were not announced in advance -- especially when it's clear they are not going to even be orbital.

The difference between a space launch and a ballistic missile launch isn't that one reaches space and other other doesn't. They both do! It's trajectory and the North Koreans fucked up in 1998. We don't want a repeat of that.

I live in Florida and I always want to smack someone who think the Shuttle is "going to crash" when they see it roll and pitch. Too many people think missiles and rockets go straight up into space and once they are in space, they are "in space" and not coming back. There's no difference between a rocket that can hit your house and one that docks with the ISS -- except trajectory.

And there are a lot of really stupid nations just firing things off things without any "flight termination." So we will do it for them. The US learned the necessity of "Flight Termination" after the Mexicans got "The Yankee Rocket" over 60 years ago.

Unfortunately, China has already killed thousands of its citizens because it refuses to add Flight Termination. North Korea is in the same board -- almost because they want us to do it for them for the PR value. Total, plausable deniability.
 
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I'm interested and like the idea of having a NMD (Nulcear Missile Defence) 'shield' over the US buy I think the idea of an interceptor-missile based defence is just stupid. The idea of hitting a bullet with a bullet is of course totally possible, and it's been proven to work. It just doesn't work well. When you are using one or only a few interceptors that have about or slightly greater velocity than your target, you have a very specific trajectory that must be followed or you'll miss.

What I'm more interested in is laser based missile defence. Instead of a few interceptors where timing is more critical, imagine getting a few tries every second to hit. And instead of detecting the real warhead inside a field of dummys, just shoot down everything that's coming at you, decoy target or not.

Instead of trying to hit a bullet with a bullet - use a (powerful) flashlight to hit a bullet. The MTHEL system (Mobile Tactical High-Energy Laser - more of a battlefield point defense system) which has been working for a few years has sucessfully shot down missiles and artillery shells.

I think that there is much more to gain through the research into laser technology for the civilian population such as medical and communtication uses, than there is to construct more rockets. Lasers also avoid the problems of everything that that can go wrong with the launch vehicle and they also avoid the maintence of the rockets. While I agree that computers are smart and fast enough to calculate interception paths, I don't really like the idea of leaving it to the interception package to do the job. I like the more point and shoot of a laser based system.
 
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Tgunz262 said:
I'm interested and like the idea of having a NMD (Nulcear Missile Defence) 'shield'
Just FYI, NMD means National Missile Defense -- as opposed to TMD, Theater Missile Defense.
Tgunz262 said:
over the US buy I think the idea of an interceptor-missile based defence is just stupid.
Why? It's just a surface-to-air missile?
Tgunz262 said:
The idea of hitting a bullet with a bullet is of course totally possible, and it's been proven to work.
Repeatedly proven in not only "controlled" but full "acquire, engage and intercept" scenarios from hundreds of miles away in TMD during the mid-to-late '90s.
Tgunz262 said:
It just doesn't work well.
Huh? As opposed to what? Pre hit-to-kill proximity-fuse sucked. Not only for missiles, but it was far less effective at taking out aircraft. Instead of relying on concussion and shrapnel, now we're ripping it apart with pure kenetic energy.

Maybe it's because I've seen Patriot and PAC-2 versus newer hit-to-kill PAC-3 personally. But the difference is like "look, we made a dent in something that still came down in one piece" versus "who took the 200 chainsaws to this thing spread over a hundred square miles?"

Tgunz262 said:
When you are using one or only a few interceptors
Actually, we can fit 2-4x as many PAC-3 interceptors in the existing Patriot system than Patriot/PAC-2. We've got more effective interceptors for less space and maintanence (no warhead).
Tgunz262 said:
that have about or slightly greater velocity than your target,
Depends on the intercept -- many times in TMD, the target is faster!

During the boost phase, the TMD interceptor needs to be close and the target acquired early. We now have this as of the mid-'90s in the "over the horizon" radar and fire control systems. We can knock it down early in boost phase.

If you mean during cruise or terminal, we're going "head on" at "high deflection angle." That's more difficult. Ideally we want to do it before the terminal phase. But that's not always possible.

Before with '70s/80s Patriot, we could only detect during terminal phase. That's another reason why Patriot sucked. It was designed for detecting aircraft entering a zone, not when and where they took off from a much greater distance away (and we relied on AWACS and other airbourne assets).

But today, with PAC-3/THAAD, we're acquiring, evaluating and responding just after boost. So we can hit it shortly after boost, before cruise.

For longer range targets, all Patriot (including PAC-3) is almost always much slower than the terminal incoming target. That's where THAAD, NTW/Block II and, ultimately, NMD come in.

Tgunz262 said:
you have a very specific trajectory that must be followed or you'll miss.
And this is any different with "proximity-fuse"? The only difference is that proximity doesn't have to hit dead-on. Hit-to-kill has to, and needs more accurate guidance and real-time (active) course correction. This is all evolutionary with missile technology.

Tgunz262 said:
What I'm more interested in is laser based missile defence.
Oh yeah, reality.

Tgunz262 said:
Instead of a few interceptors where timing is more critical, imagine getting a few tries every second to hit.
Huh? You've been watching too much sci-fi. Lasers aren't like in "sci-fi."

First you have major capacitance issues. Secondly, many high-power, military lasers burn their own optics out and/or have limited chemical stores (if not just "one shot"). Lastly, they have to "burn through" the materials and there's no guarantee you'll hit a "sensitive" spot.

Kenetic energy exchange not only affects the point on the target of intercept, but it delivers a complete, physical (and counter) inertia to the object it strikes. In a nutshell, I don't care how you reinforce the missile, it's going to rip the fuck apart at combinational Mach 10+ collision. Lasers don't do that. Proximity-fuse only delivers a concussion or shrapnel delivery that are tiny mases.

Tgunz262 said:
And instead of detecting the real warhead inside a field of dummys, just shoot down everything that's coming at you, decoy target or not.
Let's entertain your sci-fi assumptions and say you actually have a "Star Wars-like blaster" that re-charges instaneously and you have "unlimited ammo." Can build a control system to accurately aim and fire at all sorts of objects?

Tgunz262 said:
Instead of trying to hit a bullet with a bullet - use a (powerful) flashlight to hit a bullet.
It's easier to "course correct" a bullet near the target, than to try to point a flashlight on an object from hundreds of miles away.

Tgunz262 said:
The MTHEL system (Mobile Tactical High-Energy Laser - more of a battlefield point defense system) which has been working for a few years has sucessfully shot down missiles and artillery shells.
Yes, with 3 severe limitations!
1. Short range
2. Fixed, not mobile (the "relocatable" aspects are not as you think)
3. Does not detonate non-shell, contained warheads (such as in a MRBM or ICBM shielded re-entry vehicle)

Lasers will complement interceptors. But lasers are not "unlimited rounds" either. You've been watching too much sci-fi. ;)

Tgunz262 said:
I think that there is much more to gain through the research into laser technology for the civilian population such as medical and communtication uses, than there is to construct more rockets. Lasers also avoid the problems of everything that that can go wrong with the launch vehicle and they also avoid the maintence of the rockets.
You're kidding me, right? Lasers are not "solid state" and maintenanceless like people think. Other than fueling, interceptors are!

Tgunz262 said:
While I agree that computers are smart and fast enough to calculate interception paths, I don't really like the idea of leaving it to the interception package to do the job. I like the more point and shoot of a laser based system.
You're kidding me, right? You do understand that these lasers also have an automated fire and control system too, right? Active target acquisition and tracking today is no difference whether it's on-board a missile or at a ground station. They use the same damn systems. ;)

Unless, of course, you're talking about a guy just "moving the laser dish around with a joystick." Then I'll have to laugh. ;)

Although the "big difference" is that an active system on an interceptor close to the target can see a "lot closer" and a "lot more accurate" than a groundstation hundreds of miles away. That's why interceptors are more accurate for distances hundreds of miles than a "fixed" laser. Fixed "lasers" are only good for close-range use.

Just like the US Navy tries to use its Block II missiles and only relies on the Phalanx system as the "last resort, close range intercept." In the future, you'll see the US Navy adopt lasers intead of the projectile Phalanx, but it will not replace it's missiles for longer-range intercept.
 
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4G63

Closed Account
How is science any different than religion? Powerful deities to be feared and worshiped, liable to kill us all in an instant of spite. All our time and money goes to so called "experts" to protect us from something were not even sure exists?
 
Suitcase bombs can't destroy cities (only a few blocks)

D-rock said:
Of course they might get smart someday and just have somebody walk into the country with the bomb in a suitcase.
Of which a missile does nothing to stop. Of course, if the weapon is radioactive, it's easier to detect. And it's impossible to smuggle in a large weapon capable of megaton WMD in a suitcase.

But on the battlefield theater or in strategic warfare, when a state decides to attack the US or another ally, it does the job. Especially with a massive, multi-megaton WMD that could cause severe damage to the US infrastructure, as well as life.
 
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