What makes people vote republican

The white house says 50 billion what a joke.I have heard it is 12 billion a month in direct costs.With all the other costs I would bet the 3 trillion is a fair number.Just think of what we could have done at home and to even to help the world be more safe and secure for all of us with 3 trillion.IKE is spinning in his grave.

More info. I remember Rumsfeld smuggly flipping off the experts as having no idea what they were talking about. He should be doing jail time with the rest of that crowd.;

When Larry Lindsey, then head of the National Economic Council, estimated in 2002 that the looming war on Iraq might cost as much as $200 billion, his numbers were dismissed as "baloney" by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, who suggested that the war would cost as little as $50-$60 billion. Lindsey was in fact off by a far margin, according to Stiglitz (a Nobel Laureate in economics and chief economist for the World Bank) and Bilmes (Kennedy School of Government, Harvard U.), but contra Rumsfeld, Lindsey's numbers were far too low. Using what they say are conservative assumptions they estimate the eventual total costs of the war as more than $3 trillion, 50 times the number suggested by Rumsfeld. They arrive at this estimate by taking into account total relevant appropriations/expenditures to date for military operations, "operational expenditures" and savings hidden elsewhere in the defense budget, inflation and the "time value" of money, future direct and hidden operational expenditures, future and current costs of disability and health care for returning veterans, future costs of restoring the military to prewar strength, budgetary costs to other parts of government, interest on US debt attributable to the war, opportunity costs to the economy, and macroeconomic impact from higher oil prices and larger deficits. In addition to explaining how they arrived at their estimate, they also issue a call for withdrawal from Iraq and recommend reforms for properly understanding and dealing with the financial costs of future wars. Annotation #169;2008 Book News, Inc., Portland, OR (booknews.com)
 
So you are just gonna PRETEND that the World trade center WASN'T bombed before?

Let us not forget that clinton had at least two opportunities to get rid of the bastard that bombed the trade center and OH YEAH Hired 20 pieces of crap to fly planes into it 7 years ago!!!!

Revisionist history, GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!

Talk about revisionist history lol.If your going to give all this credit for no attacks to Bush then he has to take the blame for 9/11 as well.He was the President at the time and had been for a while.But both are not really accurate IMO ,I won't blame Bush for 9/11 and only future history will tell if we are attacked again and possibly why or why not.Lets remember there was 8 years in between the two trade center attacks.

I love how you people post a question about Why people vote Republican. THEN When someone actually replies with an explanation why, the WHOLE bunch of you attack them like they are a horrible person when they do.

I personally see anybody willing to vote for obama to be less than intelligent.

The things he is promising have NEVER WORKED and history bears this out.

This even extends to some of you basically calling me stupid and oh yeah one called me a whiner because of how I believe.

The reason I believe the way I do is I believe liberalism to be a lack of intelligence, and I have yet to meet a liberal who can tell me one thing obama has actually accomplished.

Just one thing. and tell me how he is going to accomplish this "Change".

Don't ask a question about a subject if you don't want an honest answer.

I have seen people here bash republicans mercilessly, call conservatives racists, call people who believe in something higher than themselves names I won't repeat here and all in the name of a party who claims they are for "tolerance and respect for everyone".

You people can't abide anyone who has a different opinion from you. You prefer to belittle them and attack them and call names, this has happened to me more than once, though I don't figure anyone has the guts to own up to it here.

Let us not forget the Iraq war was a UN MANDATE! That means for the liberals in the audience that the UN is the one, REPEAT FOR YOU SLOW PEOPLE, THE UN is a big reason for the reason we went to IRAQ to begin with, but again REVISIONIST HISTORY will raise its ugly head again here.

And more revisonist history,the UN did not authorize an invasion of Iraq.Remember Powell went up there and gave a big presentation full of BS I might add that he was really mad at Bush about later and still is.Here is the scoop from wik.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq
"In February 2003, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell addressed the United Nations General Assembly, continuing U.S. efforts to gain U.N. authorization for an invasion. Powell presented evidence alleging that Iraq was actively producing chemical and biological weapons and had ties to al-Qaeda, claims that have since been widely discredited. As a follow-up to Powell’s presentation, the United States, United Kingdom, Poland, Italy, Australia, Denmark, Japan, and Spain proposed a UN Resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq, but NATO members like Canada, France, and Germany, together with Russia, strongly urged continued diplomacy. Facing a losing vote as well as a likely veto from France and Russia, the U.S., UK, Spain, Poland, Denmark, Italy, Japan, and Australia eventually withdrew their resolution.[45][46]


U.S. President George Bush meets with his top advisors on March 19, 2003 just before the invasion begins.With the failure of its resolution, the U.S. and their supporters abandoned the Security Council procedures and decided to pursue the invasion without U.N. authorization, a decision of questionable legality under international law.[47] This decision was widely unpopular worldwide, and opposition to the invasion coalesced on February 15 in a worldwide anti-war protest that attracted big between six and ten million people in more than 800 cities, the largest such protest in human history according to the Guinness Book of World Records.[48]"


And I am laughing my ass off at this talk of slow dumb leftys lol.I don't resort to calling names ,you don't have to when you have an IQ over 85.
There are a few intelligent conservatives on the board but by and large I would stack up the other side intelligence wise any day of the week.And on calling some out as racists,religious nuts etc.,hey if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it just might be a duck.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read between the lines and see the little code words some use over and over.Now you go ahead and argue that such people have the same level of intelligence ones who don't express such views do,IMO its clear they don't.

And lets talk about what Obama has ever accomplished,But before I do lets just start wth the obvious .That as soon as he opens his mouth you know he is a bright well educated articulate guy.He was able to from humble beginnings with his intelligence and hard work do the following ,again from wik.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama
"Obama is the first African American to be nominated by a major political party for president. His acceptance speech was given on August 28, 2008 at the 2008 Democratic National Convention. A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he served as president of the Harvard Law Review, Obama worked as a community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney before serving in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004. He taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1992 to 2004. Following an unsuccessful bid for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000, he announced his campaign for the U.S. Senate in January 2003. After a primary victory in March 2004, Obama delivered the keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in July 2004. He was elected to the Senate in November 2004 with 70% of the vote."

Now is that less experience then McCain who has been in the senate for almost 30 years,sure is.If only experience mattered Mccain would be it,but it not just about experience its about who has the better ideas and is not seen as part of the group that got us into the big mess were in with the Iraq blinder and the collapsing financial system.And that if you don't know is the republicans who have been in charge for the last 8 years.McCain is doing his best to run away from Bush and the republican legacy but that is a really hard thing to sell when you are basically still proposing the same policys that have been in place .


And change is easy.Obama(any dem could have done these things) gets elected we can drop the cowboy bubba type international mentality and get back to some intelligent use of our resources and power in world.Raise the tax rate on the crowd over $200,000 back to the amount it was under Clinton ,give the rest of everybody else a cut.Most of the things Obama might do won't go nearly far enough IMO like hopefully slashing the hell out of the defense spending.It buys us almost nothing and that money could be much more well spent.I saw your post on how jobs are created by the defense budget and how there are threats out there.My response to that is that for the money spent it is way to costly and inefficent as a jobs program and that money could be much better spent on funding things like rebuilding our infrastruture(ya know the bridges and everything else that is falling apart) or even something new like a crash program to build nuclear and wind power sites which we need.And on threats I forsee no possibility of another country attacking the US.If they did they would be a parking lot in hours,thats all the defense we need ,the rest is just waste to make a few rich within the miltary-industrial establishment.Nuke force,small air force,small navy/mainly nuke subs and a few standing troops and we are covered.Get used to the idea because we won't be able to afford throwing 1/2 a trillion (and that don't even include the wars) a year down the unaccountable black hole of very wastefull defense spending much longer with the deficits and economy we have.
Oh and I have seen you criticize Obama for the comment on gas prices that he would have prefered a more gradual rise as though he should have said something like "Don't worry I promise a $1.00 a gallon gas if elected".Like the gas prices are something that a president or that even a single country even the United States can control really all that much,we and the world do get it at a better price btw due to people like our friends the Saudi sheiks,but here are limits to even that with the demand in the world growing and the supply not ever going to keep up,the age of cheap oil is over.Bush can do little short term and in the future the only answer is alternatives(nuclear,wind and some others to a lesser degree) and conservation.Nobody can do much short term and drilling is no answer since the US has so little of the worlds oil not to mention the problem of the enviorment and the use of fossil fuels/climate change (which even Palin now says is real,McCain made the extremist change her tune).


Ok is that enough of an answer from a dumb lefty ?:thefinger:rofl:
 
86150, the vast majority of this countries intellectual elite support Obama. This is proven. Obama leads McCain in support from voters with Postgraduate degrees by nearly 20%. Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/108043/Candidate-Support-Education.aspx

This fact blows your theory that Obama supporters aren't intelligent out of the water.

You probably don't care about the facts though, do you? I mean, you are republican. And we all know how republicans don't like to let facts and figures get in the way of their decision making.;)
 
well "the dumb lefty" did a pretty good job of summing it up there. but i'll be a little more brief.

If you want to say that you feel the republicans have a better policy towards national security and that is why you favor them, I respect that. I don't have anything to say about that, that's a valid answer.

I'm not going to tell people what their opinions should be, but I do think that they should be informed opinions. If people want to throw around "facts" that I think are bullshit, then I'm going to attempt to refute them.
 

meesterperfect

Hiliary 2020
So you are just gonna PRETEND that the World trade center WASN'T bombed before?

Let us not forget that clinton had at least two opportunities to get rid of the bastard that bombed the trade center and OH YEAH Hired 20 pieces of crap to fly planes into it 7 years ago!!!!

Revisionist history, GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!
Yeah theres a big reason I don't care for the democratic party.
Clinton had actually at least 7 confirmed chances to capture Bin Laden between the time of the 1st trade center bombing and the end of his term.
The country of Sudan practically handed him to us on one occasion and Clinton and Janet Reno passed, saying it might not be legal.

Nobody seems to care about that, or even consider it.
Doesn't anybody think that should have been his number one priority in those years?
I sure do, and always have.

So he did nothing, people died and the shit all lands in Bushes lap.
Now he's the hated one.

And its not arm chair quarterbacking, obviously when a terrorist group attacks your country several times and vows to do it more, something needs to be done, The democratic leader for 8 years did nothing.
Yep that is a big reason I don't care for the democratic party.
 
That's a good point, and it's also why I didn't support Hilary Clinton for the nomination, because I felt like her policies would just be the same as Bills. Perhaps that is the reason why voters feel more confident in Obama as well.
 
86150 I have a deal for you. Let me be your agent and I will book you on the national media as a spokesman for McCain and the Republication Party. I will not charge a cent for my services. I think you have the stuff to be a star political pundit and do your cause some good. This could be the start of something big and maybe you could be bigger than Ann Coulter and Rush.
:hatsoff:
 
Yeah theres a big reason I don't care for the democratic party.
Clinton had actually at least 7 confirmed chances to capture Bin Laden between the time of the 1st trade center bombing and the end of his term.
The country of Sudan practically handed him to us on one occasion and Clinton and Janet Reno passed, saying it might not be legal.

Nobody seems to care about that, or even consider it.
Doesn't anybody think that should have been his number one priority in those years?
I sure do, and always have.

So he did nothing, people died and the shit all lands in Bushes lap.
Now he's the hated one.

And its not arm chair quarterbacking, obviously when a terrorist group attacks your country several times and vows to do it more, something needs to be done, The democratic leader for 8 years did nothing.
Yep that is a big reason I don't care for the democratic party.

Clinton isn't the only one who didn't make Osama Bin Laden a priority before 9/11.

The Bush administration brushed off CIA director George Tenets warning of an impending terrorist attack inside the US just weeks before the attacks took place.

Two months before the September 11 attacks, then National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice gave the "brush-off" to an "impending terrorist attack" warning by former C.I.A. director George J. Tenet and his counterterrorism coordinator.

An article in Friday's New York Times first mentioned the warning, and a front page book review of Woodward's State of Denial in Saturday's edition provides more details.

"On July 10, 2001, Mr. Tenet and his counterterrorism chief, J. Cofer Black, met with Ms. Rice at the White House to impress upon her the seriousness of the intelligence the agency was collecting about an impending attack," David E. Sanger reported on Friday. "But both men came away from the meeting feeling that Ms. Rice had not taken the warnings seriously."

Sanger also reported that Tenet told Woodward that before 9/11, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was "impeding" efforts to catch Osama bin Laden.
article: http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/State_of_Denial_Two_months_before_0930.html

Also, it's not like the republicans were screaming about the importance of catching Osama Bin Laden during the Clinton administration. As I recall, they were much more concerned about who was sucking Clintons dick.

So I don't think that's a good enough reason to write off the entire democratic party Mr.P.
 
WOW! This thread went no where near where I hoped it would.

I was hoping that we could attempt to see where the other side was coming from without beating each other to a cyber pulp. I have said this on other threads but I think it bears repeating. Thinking, logical, well read, well informed people can look at the same set of facts and arrive at different conclusions.

Ah well, at least it has been a raucous thread so far.
 
I guess it's just impossible to have a thread like this without bringing up the hot-button issues that bring about bi-partisan divide. I would have expected the same thing for the other side of the coin. it's the nature of the beast.:2 cents:
 

girk1

Closed Account
AGAIN pull up past electoral maps & you will see that it is Identity/Cultural politics.

The Republican party is a haven for the Southern State "Dixie Crats" (Democrats)who were White Supremist/Segregationist. Before 1964 poor uneducated southern & Appallacian Whites voted overwhelmingly Democratic (& Blacks voted Linolns' party /Republican with the exception of FDR).

.However, they(POOR WHITES) felt betrayed when LBJ signed the Voting rights & Civil Rights Acts(1964) & haven't voted Democrat ever since & saw a safe haven & familiar face in the LILY WHITE REPUBLICAN party(Check out the White faces at the RNC Convention )

Appallachian & Southern Whites feel like the Democratic party now is for minorities,Civil Rights,Gay Rights,Anti Gun,etc.. & no longer represent them which is untrue. The Democratic Party is strongly in favor of poor workers rights ,but poor white Appalachia & Southern Hicks vote overwhelmingly Republican now because they "RELATE to them".
They feel because the Republicans are LILY White that they will look out for there best interest which is untrue.

LBJ was right whe he said that he had lost the Southern/Appalachian White vote for the Democratic party for at least a generation when he signed the Voters Rights & Civil Rights Act.
 
AGAIN pull up past electoral maps & you will see that it is Identity/Cultural politics.

The Republican party is a haven for the Southern State "Dixie Crats" (Democrats)who were White Supremist/Segregationist. Before 1964 poor uneducated southern & Appallacian Whites voted overwhelmingly Democratic (& Blacks voted Linolns' party /Republican with the exception of FDR).

.However, they(POOR WHITES) felt betrayed when LBJ signed the Voting rights & Civil Rights Acts(1964) & haven't voted Democrat ever since & saw a safe haven & familiar face in the LILY WHITE REPUBLICAN party(Check out the White faces at the RNC Convention )

Appallachian & Southern Whites feel like the Democratic party now is for minorities,Civil Rights,Gay Rights,Anti Gun,etc.. & no longer represent them which is untrue. The Democratic Party is strongly in favor of poor workers rights ,but poor white Appalachia & Southern Hicks vote overwhelmingly Republican now because they "RELATE to them".
They feel because the Republicans are LILY White that they will look out for there best interest which is untrue.

LBJ was right whe he said that he had lost the Southern/Appalachian White vote for the Democratic party for at least a generation when he signed the Voters Rights & Civil Rights Act.

I agree with that 100%.Working class whites in those areas are being duped/played however you want to put it.Their interests are much more with other people who are in the same economic situation then with rich whites who use race to keep those peoples divided and not aligned,divide and conquer.Only thing LBJ was a little wrong on was how long the south would be lost, its been almost 2 generations now (over 40 years).But the times are changing now to where more and more of those people see they need to stop being side tracked by the more superficial IMO issues that the republicans have used so effectively of race baiting,god,gays etc. and that their economic situation compels them to focus on that more and to start voting on that(their economic interests) much more.That and the declining demographics of white populations means if they don't change soon the republicans are headed for the political wilderness and will be soon not just only a minority party but almost irrelevant.You can't just be a party of white only members overwhelmingly and have much future politically.
 
You can't just be a party of white only members overwhelmingly and have much future politically.

You can have a future politically if you are in bed with the most powerful corporations in the world. Including Diebold, the company who makes the electronic voting machines that we will all be voting on November 4th.

If you can rig elections through mass voter fraud than it doesn't matter if your party doesn't have the support of the majority. You can just cheat.
 
You can if you are in bed with the most powerful corporations in the world. Including Diebold, the company who makes the electronic voting machines that we will all be voting on November 4th.

If you can rig elections through mass voter fraud than it doesn't matter if your party doesn't have the support of the majority.

Even that and I don't deny any of it can't keep them in power indefinately.At some point people will as in "Network" get so fed up they scream " I am mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore!" Democracy may die but so will they.:violent:
 

girk1

Closed Account
I agree with that 100%.Working class whites in those areas are being duped/played however you want to put it.Their interests are much more with other people who are in the same economic situation then with rich whites who use race to keep those peoples divided and not aligned,divide and conquer.Only thing LBJ was a little wrong on was how long the south would be lost, its been almost 2 generations now (over 40 years).But the times are changing now to where more and more of those people see they need to stop being side tracked by the more superficial IMO issues that the republicans have used so effectively of race baiting,god,gays etc. and that their economic situation compels them to focus on that more and to start voting on that(their economic interests) much more.That and the declining demographics of white populations means if they don't change soon the republicans are headed for the political wilderness and will be soon not just only a minority party but almost irrelevant.You can't just be a party of white only members overwhelmingly and have much future politically.

Friday how do you believe the Democratic Party can convince these people that they are truly of a champion of the poor & middle classes? Is it just a matter of time? Kerry could not even get 15% of the White vote in a state like Miss.

Al Gore won the overall popular vote but could not win his own deep South home state (Tennessee which would have won him the election without even needing Florida)since he is more cosmopolitan & didn't have that obvious Southern charm & did not win a single deep south state:eek:

Only Clinton & Carter with their southern accents & good ol' boy charm have even won at least one Southern state since LBJ:(
Even White Dems(Kerry,Gore,etc..) lost the Sothern White vote. For instance Bush won 86% of the Southern White vote in a state like Mississippi & similar numbers were repeated throghout the South that is why it is necessary that Obama take more educated Western states like Oregon/Washington/Nevada/New Mexico if he even has a chance to win.
 
Even that and I don't deny any of it can't keep them in power indefinately.At some point people will as in "Network" get so fed up they scream " I am mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore!" Democracy may die but so will they.:violent:

Now consider this. It certainly seems, when you look at this election in an unscientific way (no gallup poll BS), that Obama has far more support than McCain. Obama draws far greater numbers at his speeches and his supporters seem more passionate. Obama also raises a lot more money than McCain which indicates that people are more willing to donate to the Obama campaign than they are to the McCain campaign. Then consider the fact that McCain is a republican and represents the party that has gotten us into an unpopular war, an economic crises and has decreased our countries standing in the world. All these factors would lead us to believe that Obama should win this election easily.

All signs (polls aside) point to an Obama victory. So what will be the implications if Obama loses? Will people loss all faith in our supposed "democracy"? Will people trust the system anymore? How many accusations and investigations of voter fraud will come about in such a situation? Could violence and chaos insue? Will people riot?

I think these are all fair questions. I know that I already have trouble trusting the fairness of the system. I may never trust it again if McCain wins.
 

girk1

Closed Account
Now consider this. It certainly seems, when you look at this election in an unscientific way (no gallup poll BS), that Obama has far more support than McCain. Obama draws far greater numbers at his speeches and his supporters seem more passionate. Obama also raises a lot more money than McCain which indicates that people are more willing to donate to the Obama campaign than they are to the McCain campaign. Then consider the fact that McCain is a republican and represents the party that has gotten us into an unpopular war, an economic crises and has decreased our countries standing in the world. All these factors would lead us to believe that Obama should win this election easily.

All signs (polls aside) point to an Obama victory. So what will be the implications if Obama loses? Will people loss all faith in our supposed "democracy"? Will people trust the system anymore? How many accusations and investigations of voter fraud will come about in such a situation? Could violence and chaos insue? Will people riot?

I think these are all fair questions. I know that I already have trouble trusting the fairness of the system. I may never trust it again if McCain wins.

I have less faith than you do I guess Tubular. Obama will not win a single Deep South State & I doubt if he will win Apallachia(Ohio/West Virginia/Pennsylvania). Now he can win the "popular vote ,but lose the electoral vote.

Yes he SHOULD win ,but even McCain has admitted that this campaign is more about "personality" than issues:eek:. Obama cannot & will not win on the personality/cultural aspect & McCains knows this.


I would have thought Kerry should have easily won also after that deception & waste(estimated 3 trillion dollars )that is the Iraq War:dunno:

I doubt if there will be any "chaos", "riots", "violence"(unless Obama dies in some obviously unseemly way I guess)but only that same personal disgust & anger that was felt after 2000 & 2004.
Things will only change for the better when Appalachia & the Deep South let go of this cultural resistance to the Democratic Party, or other third party, & vote their own true best self interest.
 
Friday how do you believe the Democratic Party can convince these people that they are truly of a champion of the poor & middle classes? Is it just a matter of time? Kerry could not even get 15% of the White vote in a state like Miss.

Al Gore won the overall popular vote but could not win his own deep South home state (Tennessee which would have won him the election without even needing Florida)since he is more cosmopolitan & didn't have that obvious Southern charm & did not win a single deep south state:eek:

Only Clinton & Carter with their southern accents & good ol' boy charm have even won at least one Southern state since LBJ:(
Even White Dems(Kerry,Gore,etc..) lost the Sothern White vote. For instance Bush won 86% of the Southern White vote in a state like Mississippi & similar numbers were repeated throghout the South that is why it is necessary that Obama take more educated Western states like Oregon/Washington/Nevada/New Mexico if he even has a chance to win.

Time and circumstances will make the change.Even if republicans can maintain the 85% type numbers for awhile that is still a shrinking group.And circumstances like dire economic situation will push all that other stiff aside quickly IMO.We may not be there yet but sure looks like were headed that way.

Now consider this. It certainly seems, when you look at this election in an unscientific way (no gallup poll BS), that Obama has far more support than McCain. Obama draws far greater numbers at his speeches and his supporters seem more passionate. Obama also raises a lot more money than McCain which indicates that people are more willing to donate to the Obama campaign than they are to the McCain campaign. Then consider the fact that McCain is a republican and represents the party that has gotten us into an unpopular war, an economic crises and has decreased our countries standing in the world. All these factors would lead us to believe that Obama should win this election easily.

All signs (polls aside) point to an Obama victory. So what will be the implications if Obama loses? Will people loss all faith in our supposed "democracy"? Will people trust the system anymore? How many accusations and investigations of voter fraud will come about in such a situation? Could violence and chaos insue? Will people riot?

I think these are all fair questions. I know that I already have trouble trusting the fairness of the system. I may never trust it again if McCain wins.


I have said and was roundly criticized for saying I feel in many ways this election is a test of how much racial progress we have really made in this country.IMO Obama given the current situation should win easily and that if he doesn't I would suspect race and white fears was the reason more than voting fraud.I know McCain is said to be ahead right now in polls but they really mean very little as most people don't focus on the election and decide anything this early.If in the middle of Oct after the debates and all, the polls still show McCain ahead then Obama is in danger of losing.A lot depends on the economic news that comes out between now and then.The worse the news the worse McCain and the republicans chances are,and it looks to be a safe bet the way the stock market and financial institutions are imploding that the news will be bad for some time to come.People get worried enough and they will quickly get on board with the party that was out of power when the debacle occurred even if the guy running was purple lol.
 
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