Welcome to the New World of being a superpower China!

Inside the Pentagon, intense planning is underway. The US Joint Chiefs are planning a strike on Yongbyon, North Korea's main nuclear separation facility, and other key targets involved with building atomic weapons. US intellignce has confirmed North Korea is refining rods into weapons-grade and there is evidence North Korea has begun to develop a stockpile or at least the facilities to maintain stockpiles of at least a dozen weapons. The US Navy has moved two carrier groups into the region in advance of a strike and constant American overhead flights keep sniffing for signs of nuclear material.

China protests American activity and other nations balk at the US' over-reaction. About the only support the US has is from Japan and South Korea. It is clear from the South Korean government that "engagement" has failed and the continued "appeasement" of North Korea has no chance of diffusing the situation.

During last second negotations, North Korea is promised billions of dollars of aid per year -- as well as modern nuclear technology to build an efficient, fission reactor for power. In return, North Korea will suspend all activity at Yongbyon and pledge to never develop nuclear weapons or transfer the technology to any other country. That one fateful day in 1994, the Clinton administration pulls off an outstanding coup to keep North Korea in-line -- all at the same time, putting forth the greatest and most costly foreign aid package to date.

Five years pass by before North Korea becomes a Clinton administration issue again. One year after passing two executive orders giving sweeping powers to the FBI and international wiretapping rights to the NSA without prior court order, the Clinton administration comes across intelligence that North Korea is not abiding by the terms of the agreement. Many facilities believed shut down are active again, and most capabilities at Yongbyon have moved elsewhere. In reality, Yongbyon is nothing more than a partially-enriched uraninum mine should North Korea decide to take off the UN seals for additional weapons and not necessary to continuing their desire. And to make matters worse, North Korea has been transfering missile technology it has gained from China to both Pakistan and Iran.

At this point, the Clinton administration is rather taken back. It suddenly realized it had no options. Just a year earlier, the Clinton administration was unable to sway the American public to consider an invasion of Iraq -- a country that lost a war and the US had legal justification to invade since it had proven in the UN Security Countil in 1996 that Iraq had not been abiding, and just kicked out inspectors guaranteed under its the terms of surrender. North Korea, while guilty of past aggression and UN resolutions to forcibly remove them as well, did not lose a war or agree to terms of surrender -- unlike Iraq.

At the same time, there was the question that even if North Korea didn't develop weapons, they could sell them for much needed cash. If the Clinton administration called North Korea out, and removed the tens of billions of dollars of aid, North Korea might actually start selling them to make up for it. It was a nightmare, especially since the US just gave North Korea more modern atomic fission technology for its power plant. So what could it do?

The Clinton administration also had bigger fish to fry. Al Quieda was the bigger target, and fighting Al Quieda was the bigger priority. Besides, Iraq might become an issue given the current intelligence. Besides, in the worst case, all North Korea would want is to extort more money from the US with the threat of nukes -- so the best way to avoid a bi-lateral audience was to ignore the intelligence. It would be something for Gore, or whomever the next President would be, to deal with. Especially with the new corporate scandles, questionable bookeeping and literally trillions upon trillions of dollars of phony wealth that was evaporating in the stock market. So now was not the time to engage the North Koreans who would only want more money in an already huge foreign aid budget and an economy where the surplus was already receding due to reduced corporate profits.

Plus, there was another avenue, China. North Korea didn't have the missiles to reach the mainland US, but they do China as much as Japan. The Clinton administration started to engage China, who would have far more influence versus the US. China was already getting lower petroleum rates than the US, and more and more countries saw China "under the radar" versus the US. They could be more effective and far question less. Especially since much of North Korea depended upon China anyway.

In his first eight months in office, W. didn't bother with North Korea, Iraq or anyone else. Not even 8 weeks in, the economy was in a recession, 5 of the last 6 quarters were negative growth and the layoffs were already starting, which would destroy 50% of the federal income as household income was dropping. By Q3, the surplus was no more and the US had no manuvering from a fiscal standpoint.

And to top all that, Tenet and other intelligence heads had guaranteed an Al Quieda attack any day since late June. As a result, every military installation was at code Bravo since July on-ward, inspecting vehicles at checkpoints, no matter how innocent-looking the civilian, and constant sweeps. Remote locations of the world were the least of Bush administration's concerns. The focus was on the next van raming through gates with bombs aboard or some organized act against domestic interests.

And then it happened. An immediate $400B impact to the economy -- the telecommunication hub of the city with the most fiscal flow and corporate HQs in the world -- trillions of dollars in secondary effects would follow. The Bush administration was completely unprepared for the action. The average American never thought of such either. We were dumbfounded and angry and confused and feeling stupid, all at the same time. But it was the change for the Bush administration.

Immediate boosts came to human intelligence from the Executive office -- find out everything about the world. Weeks after the Taliban briefings and the decision to go into Afganistan, with the support of NATO thanks almost solely to the British (I've always wondered if NATO would have supported without the help of Blair), W. sat down in November to learn about North Korea. He was shocked. Not only at the intelligence, but the fact that we were still paying North Korea -- and China had done nothing, even though the Clinton administration had made China aware of the same intelligence we had.

Bush didn't over-react. He sent in negotiators for immediate bilateral talks directly between the US and North Korea. In the very first meeting, after being presented with US intelligence, North Korea confessed to not honoring the 1994 agreement. And then, it came -- the demand for more money and materials beyond the 1994 agreement. And the North Koreans wanted additional technology for a nuclear reactor. At what point would North Koreans start transferring that technology out of the country like its missiles? Let alone the US federal budget was in no shape to increase foreign aid.

That's when the Bush administration decided it had enough. But how far could it go? North Korea hadn't lost a war, unlike Iraq. The US had no international justification at any time to go into North Korea since before the cease-fire -- a cease-fire that was not a surrender, unlike Iraq. There was only one option, to cut the aid. Not all of the aid -- food and small funds would still go -- but the aid would have to be cut, including an immediate halt to work on the light-water reactors. The next move was now left to North Korea -- abide by the 1994 agreement which we would continue to honor in return.

North Korea said no, leading to their inclusion in the infamous "Axis of Evil" a month and a half later.

Since then, North Korea has constantly pushed for bilateral talks. The US has constantly tried to involve China, trying to point out it's own follies in this matter, and that it cannot continue to support a regime that will only defy it. This is not Vietnam, who China supported but then defied and rebelled against Bejing because they merely wanted to be "left alone" -- like most others in Southeast Asia. This was a country pro-actively engaged in obtaining a nuclear weapon, with the means to kill hundreds of millions of Chinese far easier than the US -- something that can and will come to bit them, quite unlike the measly issues with Vietnam in comparison.

Furthermore, this is also about South Korea and Japan. The US has continued to make good on curbing South Korea's past interest in nuclear technology, and lived up to its part. Now China has failed on that, leaving the US to question. Furthermore, Japan now has a PM who is reconsidering pushing for the removal of the Japanese declaration and law against war in its own Constitution. Now most leaders in Japan know it's not in their interests to have nuclear weapons when China has more people and more land to sustain a conflict -- but their inaction on North Korea has made Japan wonder how much they can trust the Chinese anyway.
 
Continued ...

China is a world superpower -- with control of 7 of the 10 sea lanes in the world and twice the influence of the US when it comes to oil prices -- where China pays 1/2 of what the US does. One could make the argument that the US' influence peaked during the mid-'50s with the Suez conflict and the Russian Eastern Bloc conquests and died with the Iraq war by the time Somalia hit the early Clinton administration. Since then the US has had to explain everything -- from the 1995 blocks by France and Russia on the security council in Iraq inspections to the US' rallying of NATO to deal with the genocide in the Balkins. Heck, the US was constantly berrated for deploying MRBM in Germany and western Europe during the Reagan administration merely to deter the Russians who held a great superiority in numbers.

China can directly influence North Korea and they refuse to. The US has absolutely no justification to invade North Korea at all. We cannot even blockade to prevent transfer, which is considered an act-of-war in international law. China refuses to take a role in this, and fund North Korea at the same time. China is cutting its own throat, let alone has well reached the point where it influences the entire world, yet does not consider what harm it is doing. And just like Vietnam, China is quickly finding that the country it is supporting is growing increasingly defiant. But Vietnam doesn't have missile technology or developing nuclear weapons -- something China should really think about. The US is already spent funding nations who sign agreements for money and materials and don't abide by them, and China shouldn't assume the US would continue to do so when it has less power and less influence with a country like North Korea that China does.

I think the most insightful nation in all of this is Australia. Unlike the rest of the world, they don't blame the US then ask them to bail them out at the same time. And most importantly, they recognize that nukes in North Korea is NOT an issue for the US, but for countries in Asia. The only reason the US has been involved with thus far is because we are trying to help our allies. And that includes living up to our agreement on keeping nukes out of South Korea, which China has not recipricated. And China is a lot closer to North Korea than the US, which China is just starting to wake up to in its condemnations.

Welcome to the new world of being a superpower China! Some day, people are going to stop and realize you have more influence than the US -- from oil to Asia. And you're going to have to think things through just like we do, and recognize when your immediate political moves have consequences decades down the road -- especially to your own, national security. Enjoy the fact that the US is the scapegoat for most things now -- but you know North Korea is on you. And it won't be the last time. Just wait until people start criticizing your environmental policies which are far, far worse than ours anyday!
 
Helluva good post, Prof. :thumbsup:
 
Bush didn't over-react. He sent in negotiators for immediate bilateral talks directly between the US and North Korea. In the very first meeting, after being presented with US intelligence, North Korea confessed to not honoring the 1994 agreement. And then, it came -- the demand for more money and materials beyond the 1994 agreement. And the North Koreans wanted additional technology for a nuclear reactor. At what point would North Koreans start transferring that technology out of the country like its missiles? Let alone the US federal budget was in no shape to increase foreign aid.

That's when the Bush administration decided it had enough. But how far could it go? North Korea hadn't lost a war, unlike Iraq. The US had no international justification at any time to go into North Korea since before the cease-fire -- a cease-fire that was not a surrender, unlike Iraq. There was only one option, to cut the aid. Not all of the aid -- food and small funds would still go -- but the aid would have to be cut, including an immediate halt to work on the light-water reactors. The next move was now left to North Korea -- abide by the 1994 agreement which we would continue to honor in return.

North Korea said no, leading to their inclusion in the infamous "Axis of Evil" a month and a half later.
Except ofcourse that barely 3 months after the declaration of "Axis of Evil" Bush said "I don't give a flying fuck" and sent about $ 100 million over to Kim anyways.

The US Government has announced that it will release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme, which the US suspected was being misused.

Under the 1994 Agreed Framework an international consortium is building two proliferation-proof nuclear reactors and providing fuel oil for North Korea while the reactors are being built.

In releasing the funding, President George W Bush waived the Framework's requirement that North Korea allow inspectors to ensure it has not hidden away any weapons-grade plutonium from the original reactors.

President Bush argued that the decision was "vital to the national security interests of the United States".

And he did that roughly three months after saying they were part of the "Axis."
Link

Clinton does it - bad. Bush does it - good? :confused:

China can directly influence North Korea and they refuse to. The US has absolutely no justification to invade North Korea at all. We cannot even blockade to prevent transfer, which is considered an act-of-war in international law. China refuses to take a role in this, and fund North Korea at the same time. China is cutting its own throat, let alone has well reached the point where it influences the entire world, yet does not consider what harm it is doing. And just like Vietnam, China is quickly finding that the country it is supporting is growing increasingly defiant. But Vietnam doesn't have missile technology or developing nuclear weapons -- something China should really think about. The US is already spent funding nations who sign agreements for money and materials and don't abide by them, and China shouldn't assume the US would continue to do so when it has less power and less influence with a country like North Korea that China does.

I think the most insightful nation in all of this is Australia. Unlike the rest of the world, they don't blame the US then ask them to bail them out at the same time. And most importantly, they recognize that nukes in North Korea is NOT an issue for the US, but for countries in Asia. The only reason the US has been involved with thus far is because we are trying to help our allies. And that includes living up to our agreement on keeping nukes out of South Korea, which China has not recipricated. And China is a lot closer to North Korea than the US, which China is just starting to wake up to in its condemnations.

largely agree with this though...

cheers,
 
fuck communists

what's wrong with communists?:confused:

just because you can't understand them or their logic?

you guy do know not all communists do those sort of things right?

look it up before you think you know what you are talking about.

no it isn't
saying those thing define communism is like saying crime defines blacks or hispanics. . .
communism is a socialist government

communism was given a bad name by a few bad people in power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

you mean the communists in power have always outlawed practice of religion and all liberties

i have read history books but i wasn't so stupid to believe all the information was in them so i searched for more. . .

no the soviets are evil so you think all communists are evil. . .

soviets = communists but communists =/= soviets

you don't understand communism it's hard for stupid people to do that sometimes

you know understand things as simple as daylight

as i have said before i have but not only just one like most americans. . .

5 if you want to know

it is and was a bad implementation of communism in cuba and soviet russia

i give up. it's like talking to a wall there is no input from the other side it's just "your wrong, i'm right" and no reasons why it's is all bad. . .

have you read only history books? because it seems like it as a matter of fact it seems you have only read the right wing american history book.

i give up, you aren't understanding it no matter however i try to explain it
you are unwilling to open your mind to outside thoughts and are stuck with the average right wing american point of veiw

you know by that logic the same goes for you

i feel sad for your kids (even if you don't have any yet)

i am done with that argument. . .
 
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what's wrong with communists?:confused:

well, for one they dont let the people have their own life. thats the main reason. the other reason to me is, that they think they are god. commies think they can control everybody in the nation.

you guy do know not all communists do those sort of things right?

look it up before you think you know what you are talking about.

sorry guy, but my childhood friend up until 16 was cuban. his parents came here. they taught me all about castro and his communist agenda. and they are bona fide.

no it isn't
saying those thing define communism is like saying crime defines blacks or hispanics. . .
communism is a socialist government

then why were they so quick to leave? his mom was pregnant with him at the time they left. they lived it dude. you didnt. i tend to agree with them. ;)

as i have said before i have but not only just one like most americans. . .

5 if you want to know

you can be civil. forget about him. what exactly does this post mean. i dont understand it.:dunno:
 
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Except ofcourse that barely 3 months after the declaration of "Axis of Evil" Bush said "I don't give a flying fuck" and sent about $ 100 million over to Kim anyways.
Link
Clinton does it - bad. Bush does it - good? :confused:
First off, I never said Clinton was "bad," he was just trying to get North Korea to stop.
Secondly, I did say that Bush didn't freeze all funds, he just cut them.
In fact, much of that was at the suggestion of the Chinese.

largely agree with this though...
As I said, the US is becoming less and less influencial.
With the end of the Cold War, it is now popular to criticize and blame the US for everything.
China had better wake up sooner than later, because that's not going to last.

The US gave North Korea everything and they only wanted more.
And while it's easy to say both Clinton and Bush are to blame for North Korea, was there anything could do to get them to stop?
No. But the Chinese can quickly and swiftly solve the problem and they won't.

This one's on China.
If they thought Vietnam was bad when they rebelled against Bejing, just wait until North Korea does.
 
what's wrong with communists?:confused:
just because you can't understand them or their logic?
No, because most communist regimes are very, very oppressive.
you guy do know not all communists do those sort of things right?
look it up before you think you know what you are talking about.
Every major communist regime has been oppressive.
The wealth moves to the political party heads away from the people.
China manages to maintain some balance.
The Soviet did not. North Korea is far worse and only survives on Chinese donations.
no it isn't saying those thing define communism is like saying crime defines blacks or hispanics. . .
communism is a socialist government
No, that's not true.
Communism is an assumed socialist government, but it has always been implemented as a single party, dictating ruler -- per the very foundations of the movement.
The idea behind Communism is the that the heads of state eventually give up their power and back to the people who self-govern.
Yeah, like that's happened.

communism was given a bad name by a few bad people in power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
You don't have to be communist to be Stalinist, but most communist governments tend to be Stalinist.

you mean the communists in power have always outlawed practice of religion and all liberties
i have read history books but i wasn't so stupid to believe all the information was in them so i searched for more. . .
no the soviets are evil so you think all communists are evil. . .
soviets = communists but communists =/= soviets
North Korea is worse than the Soviet ever was.

Communism seems like a socialist ideal.
It has worked in small communities and towns, even in the US.
And it utterly fails on a national level -- just like most socialistic approaches.

Because socialism only works on a mass scale when people hold each other individual accountable.
Socialism, by its very nature, is forced community and removal of individual choice
When you take away individual choice and force people to work together, not everyone agrees what agenda is best.

The question then becomes, who's agenda is [allegedly] most righteous and adopted?
Which is why it typically boils down to a single party and, often, a dictatorship.
 
The world is constantly changing. Get used to it. :2 cents:
I'm going to China for a few weeks for training some folks there.
I'll let you all know if I get any of these so called super powers.
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
I can see a ban in my future if I start in on this thread, as I'm sure I'll piss someone off. So I'll just pass on this one, nice posts though so far!
 
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