US soldier gets 35 years in deaths of 4 Iraqis

[Hot Mega]

I think what's lost here is that he entered a guilty plea. We all know that judicial systems dole out softer, for lack of a better word, punishment when someone admits there guilt. That said, shooting people who are blind folded and bound is not how any member of the US military is trained. Every soldier, sailor, marine, and airmen is taught the Geneva Covention and the Law of Armed Conflict. I can understand where they were coming form but that by no means gives them the right to summarily execute prisoners. If we do that, then we have failed, not simply militarily, but socially. Killing of prisoners is a line that we simply should not cross, it means that we are no better than they are.

Good post.

 

[calpoon]

These guys did what they did outside of the approved order of things, and got caught.
No approval, no grace.

OK, then we agree, these guys were in fact guilty of committing a crime. I'm not going to argue whether they were right or wrong in doing so (that's a matter of personal perspective), just that one can't argue that they are innocent and did not violate the set of circumstances that are considered to be the law and were punished in consequence of it.

as to the subject of whether it would be murder to kill bin ladin (or any other such person), if I did it then I suppose that it would be, since I don't have any evidence that demonstrates his guilt in committing any bad deed, just the testimony of people that say so. That doesn't mean that someone in the same position would fail to do so. I'm sure that someone in the military would do so because it is their perspective to follow orders without questioning them. doesn't mean that it's not murder, nor does it mean that it necessarily is unjustified. there are many shades of gray to life's (and death's) circumstances.

 

[calpoon]

PS.,

I just now read what you wrote.

killing is not covered by clear sets of rules, not for every situation and not for every engagement.
Whereas being dead is pretty much covered by two words...game over.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Philbert]

We don't really agree...only in the most rarified atmosphere of semantics.
They didn't murder, they killed without "orders", on the wrong end of a timeline.. And they're scapegoats of the military code of conduct...not that it'll matter when they're doing their time.
I'm sorry they went so far over the line and lost their perspective...but in no way are they "murderers".
It sucks either way.

 

[calpoon]

well that's the thing, it is just semantics. the definition of murder is that a court of law defines it to be so. the justification of killing is an entirely different topic, IMO.

 

[Namreg]

so, were the nazis justified in gassing millions of people because

a) some guy ordered them to, and that makes it alright, because "some guy" overrides ones own conscience;

b) they perceived jews, communists, gypsies and homosexuals as enemies and thus felt threatened by them, thereby justifying their murder?

you can play with semantics to try to justify it all until you're all blue in the face, but murder is still murder and it is still wrong.

 

[Roughneck]

on second thoughts, never mind...

- R.

 

[Skyraider22]

People say war is hell I don't know it has to be hadr at times watching one of your fellow soilders die and you can't do anything about it you want pay back but we all know that is not the right thing to do.Maybe he was having problem,maybe all the fighting got to him and he held it all inside what every the case may be it is horrible that it happen but in reality it is war and I'm sure worse has happen and it has not made the news or will not make the news.

 

[Skyraider22]

on second thoughts, never mind...

- R.

That was one of the most honorable things I have read.:hatsoff: Thanks you.

 

[Namreg]

People say war is hell I don't know it has to be hadr at times watching one of your fellow soilders die and you can't do anything about it you want pay back but we all know that is not the right thing to do.Maybe he was having problem,maybe all the fighting got to him and he held it all inside what every the case may be it is horrible that it happen but in reality it is war and I'm sure worse has happen and it has not made the news or will not make the news.

so because somebody else did something worse murder is OK? and if it hadn't been on the news it would be OK?

 

[Spleen]

The (U.S.) Military trains Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines to accomplish military objectives that in many cases involve killing. The U.S. military doesn't train individuals to be murderers.

Where do you draw the line between "killing" and "murder"?...

 

[Hot Mega]

Killing a person who poses no imminent threat to you is murder.

In combat, killing someone who has surrendered, is not a threat to your strategic objective or a non combatant civilian is murder.

The only exception to the imminent threat rule is in the case where a person is given a fair trial and convicted in good faith, sentenced to death then executed.

All murder is killing but not all killing is murder.

 

[Spleen]

Hot Mega, have you ever fought in a war?

 

[tartanterrier]

Please tell me, how exactly would you know?

Cos I've been there and yes the holocaust did actually happen

 

[Hot Mega]

Hot Mega, have you ever fought in a war?

Armed conflict, yes. Operation "Just Cause" and Operation "Desert Shield" among others...TRUST ME. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Spleen]

TRUST ME.

No, I think I'll pass, thanks for the offer though.

 

[Violator79]

Armed conflict, yes. Operation "Just Cause" and Operation "Desert Shield" among others...TRUST ME. I know what I'm talking about.

"Just Cause", that's Panama alright. I was in the Army myself, so respect for another fighting man.


As for the soldier in question, I'm divided on this one. Part of me thinks he's not guilty of anything, but part of me thinks, yes he did kill that person while being blindfolded and he should be punished.

 

[Kingfisher]

What happened to what goes on in the bush, stays in the bush?

 

[ChefChiTown]

"Just Cause", that's Panama alright. I was in the Army myself, so respect for another fighting man.


As for the soldier in question, I'm divided on this one. Part of me thinks he's not guilty of anything, but part of me thinks, yes he did kill that person while being blindfolded and he should be punished.

Can I ask why?

If this soldier wasn't a soldier, would you feel differently about what he did? If someone was trained in hand-to-hand combat, weapons and military tactics, but wasn't a soldier, and they killed someone in the same exact manner, would you still feel the same way?

 

[Violator79]

Can I ask why?

If this soldier wasn't a soldier, would you feel differently about what he did? If someone was trained in hand-to-hand combat, weapons and military tactics, but wasn't a soldier, and they killed someone in the same exact manner, would you still feel the same way?

Probably. To be totally honest with you, and I'm cutting through all the bullshit......kill them all!!! They don't like us, never have, never will. As long as we're there, kill them before they kill us. Suppose that guy who was killed was a terrorist or had plans to kill Americans. Would YOU feel the same about how he died if he was?

And my feelings are not based solely on being a former soldier. I've felt that way for a long time, even before I was in the Army.