US releases man, now al quaeda leader again

[Member2019]

Man, it's "stateless" actions that cause the carnage!

Israel won't accept the pre-1967 borders resolution. If they did there would be peace.

Bullshit. Not only bullshit, but Egypt doesn't have a problem with it.

hey won't accept this, even though all territory they have inhabited past then is illegal, hence 'occupied territories'.

They gave some back. Look what happens. The rockets are just fired closer.

I'm not a professional military strategist, but I really get tired of having my past defense experience insulted by bleeding hearts. The rockets fire when they are provided to these groups. They stop and "peace" comes only when they run out. It starts up again when they stockpile enough again.

Who doesn't want peace here? Seriously!

Iran doesn't have nuclear bombs, so it would be pretty hard for them to kill their fellow Arabs.

But their own leader states what he would do if he had one. Com'mon dude, you saw my point, don't argue with the one I didn't make. Furthermore, 3,000 centrifuges growing to 10,000 is for 1 thing and 1 thing only, weapons-grade enrichment. Nuclear physics 101.

As far as the rest is concerned, you'll have to explain how Israel has appeased anyone. Gaza is a concentration camp, and the only reason Hezbollah has attacked them was for their illegal campaigns into Lebanon, which mind you was fought in Lebanon, not Israel. I should also congratulate Hezbollah for a job well done. If it weren't for them their country would be yet another victim of Israeli aggression.

You're kidding me, right? It is in Israel's best interest to see Lebanon, a real democracy, succeed. When Hezbollah doesn't get what it wants in Lebanon's legit Democratic-Republic via its processes, it bypasses the legit will of Lebanon and attacks Israel. It also plays Castro-like games with destroying government infrastructure, and replacing with their own.

I made an analogy in another thread to what that would be in the US. If a minority political party in the US did that, they would be rounded up for treason, going directly against the US Constitution. Your support of such "stateless" group actions is what causes the problem!

At least when Israel does something, it's Israel. Same as the US. Lebanon is trying to survive as well. The Hezbollah are undermining the state functions of Lebanon. It is very much in the interest of Israel for Lebanon's democracy to work.

And, BTW, since you can't seem to put 2 and 2 together, the Hezbollah were firing rockets at Israel from inside Lebanon. Of course they finally just invaded!

 

[Member2019]

Okay, you guys continue to cross concepts ...

Exactly! They no longer exist. What should scare people is they don't just do this to extras from Indiana Jones, but to anyone they think may be conspiring against the government. They can take you off the street for whatever reason, lock you up, and throw away the key.

Bullshit. People keep making this argument, but it's bullshit -- especially if you are a US citizen. It gets old.

I have a lot of problems with the War on Terror, including civil liberty issues. But when people like yourself keep throwing "blanket statements" like these, it undermines the legitimate arguments of lawyers, judges and concerned citizens.

People keep stretching the truth on the treatment at Gitmo, and it doesn't matter how many independent groups (often countering statements the "fringe, political groups"), you guys don't stop until you find a blogger saying otherwise. It's the same bullshit on "torture" to define lack of sleep with waterboarding. And its the same lack of attention to details of experts and witnesses that cause people to have conspiracy theories on 9/11.

Stop pulling this bullshit. Be a responsible citizen. Make a point, don't stretch the fuck out of it with broad, general statements. It gets old.

The CIA waterboarded 3 prisoners of war. It's not the first time, especially not before the W. administration. But now, all-of-the-sudden, we're concerned about it and blame W. People forget Clinton 1998-2000 after he started going after Al Quieda. I got concerned back then.

So what, Gitmo gets shut down? We'll see if Obama follows through, or if you just have a "distributed Gitmo." Sometimes I don't know what is worse ... what the government reports or what they don't. Transparency is not always what it seems.

People were throwing W. rhetoric around when passports were improperly viewed at the State Department. I know how some of those "new controls" world. In other words, what did they do or -- worse yet -- what did they not know and were not able to track with government employees before they were in place?

I.e., Gitmo was a known quantity. What I don't know is what scares me.

 

[D-rock]

Re: Blame the US by default ...

Israel won't accept the pre-1967 borders resolution. If they did there would be peace.

That's extremely optimistic and unrealistic. It's more likely they wouldn't stop until Israel is wiped off the map.

 

[Baill Inneraora]

^^Optimistic, or suicidal if your Israel

 

[General Warcock]

Re: Blame the US by default ...

That's extremely optimistic and unrealistic. It's more likely they wouldn't stop until Israel is wiped off the map.

Yes I know all Arabs want is to 'wipe Israel off the map', as the often quoted mistranslation of Ahmadinejad goes.

Brainwashed westerners will believe what they want. Israel and the U.S. are rouge nations, which eventually will be torn down through their own arrogance and need to dominate.

 

[General Warcock]

Re: Okay, you guys continue to cross concepts ...

Bullshit. People keep making this argument, but it's bullshit -- especially if you are a US citizen. It gets old.

Yeah, and you didn't refute it either. Name calling gets old.

 

[Facetious]

The plan is to move them to another facility where they will be processed according to the law of the USA.

But one would argue that non American citizens, let alone probable combatants, fighting against an international coalition, are not afforded the same rights as American citizens.

The importation of gitmo inmates to American shores would be a remarkable disaster, as the pool of willing, Anti American ideal attorneys would be lining up to defend said probable terrorist combatants, Pro Bono.
Why would such esteemed attorneys do this ? Simple - for purposes no other than to cause revolution, disruption, confusion and death to both a nation and its people. . . oh, and to make a name for themselves.




Peace :bowdown:

Not "Piece" !! :nono:

 

[bodie54]

Re: Blame the US by default ...

Yes I know all Arabs want is to 'wipe Israel off the map', as the often quoted mistranslation of Ahmadinejad goes.

Was anything mistranslated in this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo&feature=related

 

[georges]

Re: Blame the US by default ...

Yes I know all Arabs want is to 'wipe Israel off the map', as the often quoted mistranslation of Ahmadinejad goes.

Brainwashed westerners will believe what they want. Israel and the U.S. are rouge nations, which eventually will be torn down through their own arrogance and need to dominate.

Israel and the USA are some of the most democratic nations that you will ever encounter. Israel won wars 4 times against Arab nations in 1956-1967-1973-1982. I am not counting the lesson that the terrorists have taken during Operation Grapes of Wrath. Palestine, Iran, Yemen, Syria and North Korea are rogue nations. Israel and USA are not arrogant.

 

[General Warcock]

Re: Blame the US by default ...

Was anything mistranslated in this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo&feature=related

I don't know, but if it's correct I agree. Israel was illegally created, and is run by genocidal supremacists.

 

[General Warcock]

Re: Blame the US by default ...

Israel and the USA are some of the most democratic nations that you will ever encounter.

Really? Is that how two families ruled the country for 24 years? The U.S. is an oligarchy.

A real democracy...you must watch Fox news a lot. :1orglaugh

 

[Imagine]

But one would argue that non American citizens, let alone probable combatants, fighting against an international coalition, are not afforded the same rights as American citizens.

They are not given any rights. The Geneva convention (I forgot which one exactly) is, as far as I know, fairly clear on the point that a prisoner is either civilian or a prisoner of war, and in either case, guaranteed some rights depending on which. If there is any uncertainty as to what a person is, they should be treated as a prisoner of war until a tribunal determines what they are. There is no recognized status in between. So if they don't fall under American law and they don't fall under international law of war (and since you specified that they are fighting against an "international coalition", that ought to be the case), what exactly are they?

 

[bodie54]

I don't know, but if it's correct I agree. Israel was illegally created, and is run by genocidal supremacists.

Well that's just dandy, but as I'm sure you're aware your opinion wasn't at issue. You stated Ahmadinejad had oft been misquoted in regard to wiping out Israel, but that "brainwashed westerners will believe what they want". Seems to me that unless he was misquoted in the clip I posted his postion regarding Israel is abundandly clear: Isreal is the banner of the great satan. Death to Isreal.

 

[Baill Inneraora]

Re: Blame the US by default ...

Israel won't accept the pre-1967 borders resolution. If they did there would be peace. They won't accept this, even though all territory they have inhabited past then is illegal, hence 'occupied territories'.

Iran doesn't have nuclear bombs, so it would be pretty hard for them to kill their fellow Arabs.

As far as the rest is concerned, you'll have to explain how Israel has appeased anyone. Gaza is a concentration camp, and the only reason Hezbollah has attacked them was for their illegal campaigns into Lebanon, which mind you was fought in Lebanon, not Israel. I should also congratulate Hezbollah for a job well done. If it weren't for them their country would be yet another victim of Israeli aggression.

You might understand the situation better if you started with facts. Iranians are not Arabs and they don’t speak Arabic.

 

[General Warcock]

Re: Blame the US by default ...

You Might understand the situation better if you started with facts. Iranians are not Arabs and they don’t speak Arabic.

Oh, I thought they spoke American?

 

[Member2019]

No offense ...

But I'll take W. over FDR or Wilson any day. At least W. has limited it to people who were caught on the battlefield or should not have been where they should have been (some have been questionable, yes, and that's what I'm against). FDR and Wilson openly did it against citizens. It wasn't just W., Lincoln and Republicans.

But most people are ignorant of American history.

 

[Imagine]

But I'll take W. over FDR or Wilson any day. At least W. has limited it to people who were caught on the battlefield or should not have been where they should have been (some have been questionable, yes, and that's what I'm against). FDR and Wilson openly did it against citizens. It wasn't just W., Lincoln and Republicans.

Please tell me you did not just say that it's okay to treat them like animals because we could treat them even worse.

 

[Member2019]

This is why ...

Please tell me you did not just say that it's okay to treat them like animals because we could treat them even worse.

This is why I shouldn't even bother debating. Instead of engaging in intelligent debate, we drop to such phrases as "treat them like animals."

Instead, we should not only actually converse about how they were actually treated, let alone why they were originally detained (some of which I utterly disagree and dislike W. for myself), but the civics debates and other details that are still on-going. I'm only glad that we do have intelligent, civic debates by some people where it is needed, whereas we had far less during FDR and Wilson when actual, American citizens were squashed and interned (although Lincoln got his share, and rightly so).

And with that, I shall take my leave. You just reminded me of why I should not even bother.

-- ProfV

P.S. Although I do now find it interesting that when Obama reaches out to all the various nations of the EU that were protesting the loudest, they have absolutely no interest in helping solve the problem. Despite popular view, W. did not create the problem, only people who had problems with the solution(s) he implemented. The problem still very much exists, and yet no one in the EU wants to help Obama. Imagine that (and only proves my other, countless points -- especially given the fact that I never liked W., but predicted that the problems W. dealt with do not go away with Obama).

 

[Imagine]

Wow, you're even worse than I am. As far as I can tell, they are not given any legal rights at all, which I'm fairly certain that every human on the planet is supposed to be guaranteed.

 

[Member2019]

Wow, you're even worse than I am. As far as I can tell, they are not given any legal rights at all, which I'm fairly certain that every human on the planet is supposed to be guaranteed.

Apparently you've been misinformed. Detainees have been given access to lawyers and other things. You should read up. Doesn't mean they have been giving all rights as American citizens, but the US has been following many Geneva requirements per Prisoner of War (PoW).

I think you're confusing Gitmo with non-US military prison installations, like some in Afghanistan. You're also confusing the national and international laws that protect civilians v. those for PoWs, although the latter do have access to lawyers (and some have spoken out against their treatment at times, I fully admit).

It gets really old when you don't want to talk specifics and paint broad strokes across everything. The inflammatory comments like "animals" only get one ignored. Same deal on throwing the word "torture" around when many aspects are legitimate interrogation (even under Geneva conventions, as long as doctors monitor things like sleep deprevation, etc...), instead of reserving it for actual water-boarding (of which the US CIA has only done 3 times since 9/11).