Unity or Independence???

[tartanterrier]

As you may know, us Scots are facing a massive dilemma this September, on whether Scotland becomes an independent country from the UK.I myself to begin with was against it, but as time goes on I'm more on the fence now, whilst waiting to see which side is going to give me the best offer.

I know there are a lot of other countries represented on this board and may not be aware, so if I could set the scene, then it would be like Texas becoming independent from the US, or Quebec from Canada and Catalonia from Spain etc etc.

So my question to everyone would be if your state/region/district wished to be a separate country, would you wish to be independent or remain in the country's union :dunno:

 

[Johan]

I hardly sse how the "Ile de France" region con secede from the resto f the country sine it's in the middle of it.
Anyway if it was to happen, even thouht the region would probably be better of without the rest of the country since France is a very centralised country. Also the people in this region are much more liberal than in the rest of the country. But I'm in the end I'm quite unsure of my vote cause I'm quite attached to France as a country...

 

[Mayhem]

I say Down With The Brits! And hang the collaborators! Can the Brits make Scotch? Hell no, so fuck 'em. Who needs them? We must never forget William Wallace and how his genitals got turned into catfood. And we must always remember the sacrifice of those who gave their lives in that one battle in that one place in the year of something-or-other. Yeah! Fuck The Brits! Kick 'em out and erase all traces of their fetid presence!

 

[CptHa]

Well, Mississippi (my home state) wouldn't last very long on its own.

 

[Rattrap]

As you may know, us Scots are facing a massive dilemma this September, on whether Scotland becomes an independent country from the UK.I myself to begin with was against it, but as time goes on I'm more on the fence now, whilst waiting to see which side is going to give me the best offer.

I know there are a lot of other countries represented on this board and may not be aware, so if I could set the scene, then it would be like Texas becoming independent from the US, or Quebec from Canada and Catalonia from Spain etc etc.

So my question to everyone would be if your state/region/district wished to be a separate country, would you wish to be independent or remain in the country's union :dunno:

I was pondering this myself as I was leaving the UK. What with the direction the coalition seemed to be going, I couldn't really blame Scotland for pushing in this direction.

Ultimately, I think the best answer lies in the actual economic situation of Scotland that I'm really not qualified to remark on - i.e., do they have the resources to survive on their own? I reckon they'd want to stay in the EU, but will they go the way of Ireland in that respect, or the way of Luxembourg? The former is certainly a good example that population size isn't really an important factor; Luxembourg has just over half a million people but their 'per capita' statistics regarding wealth are usually at least twice or three times the next runner-up. Scotland has a little over 5 million and no shortage of space; someone once told me the Highlands were the least populated area in Europe, though I wonder how that actually stacks up against, say, northern Scandinavia.

Scotland has oil, no? Following after Norway's footsteps - using great uninhabited parts of the country to generate the country's power needs while selling the oil - could be a smart move on Scotland's part. But this is all simply conjecture on my part.

 

[Red XXX]

TartanTerrier ... I find the whole Scottish independence debate rather sad.

I'm from North London, a genuine cockney and we hate anyone from 'South of the River' we don't even like crossing the Thames (we don't really) but you try getting a black cab to cross the Thames - it's been like this for thousands of years. I now live in the Wild West Country and the folk of The Forest of Dean hate people from the rest of Gloucestershire and their neighbours from Wales, so of course on a national bases we don't trust the Welsh, Scots or Irish and as for the bloody French over the channel!

But we both know it's only a bit of fun, we may have had our problems in the past whether it's religion, cattle reivers or taxes - but it was a Scottish King that came and accepted the British crown in 1603 and yes I know the Stuarts had a real run in with Parliament but so did the Tudors.

Since these Islands have been united look what we've done together for a few tiny islands - we've had an impact no other country has had in the world, look at law and education Scotland has been a world leader the industial revolution was as much based in Scotland as in Britain and Wales - half the worlds armies play the bloody bag pipes due to Scots regiments, I could go on and on. And even recently the 'Poll Tax', yes Scotland felt that they had been personnally attacked by Margaret Thatcher but as a nation that was defeated, and over the last 3 Labour governments, I think all 3 had mainly Scottish PM's in Cabinet, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown etc, etc.

I know having David Cameron talking down to you isn't great but we all have to put up with that - look at the flooding of the Somerset Levels he turns up gives an Etonian talk and goes back to London!

What I'm trying to say .... I think, is we're like a married couple - we may think being apart will be great, but like so many divorced couples we'll both end up wishing we'd never split.

Forget about the politcians - they all have their own agendas and (egos) look at what we've achieved together, like UKIP in England - yes everybody in England wants to be out of Europe ..... but do they ..... really?

Put it simply don't go I'll miss you :dontgo:

 

[288gto]

the sheep that leaves the group get's eaten by the wolf

 

[Red XXX]

I say Down With The Brits! And hang the collaborators! Can the Brits make Scotch? Hell no, so fuck 'em. Who needs them? We must never forget William Wallace and how his genitals got turned into catfood. And we must always remember the sacrifice of those who gave their lives in that one battle in that one place in the year of something-or-other. Yeah! Fuck The Brits! Kick 'em out and erase all traces of their fetid presence!

To me the Scots are Brits, as are the English, Welsh and Irish! We make Gin the they make Whiskey 'Gaelic for distilled water'! Hang both the English and Scots .... in 1603 James VI came and accepted the British crown! Who doesn't need the UK! William Wallaces family came originally from Wales! Think of the number of dead from inter clan warfare, which has lasted for centuries! What fetid presence!

Long live 'The Union' :bsflag:

 

[bobjustbob]

Years back there was talk of Staten Island breaking off from NYC. Property taxes are huge and they are the forgotten borough. Still, there is no way that place could possibly fund itself. It's a place where people come to live but work elsewhere. The roads are horrible and under constant repair. The place has nothing to offer for people to visit. There is no industry. All of the beaches are polluted. It would have been an economic disaster had they succeeded from NYC.

Wait, there is one event on Staten Island, the NYC Marathon. When they fire the gun to start, everyone runs over the bridge to get the fuck out of there.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

I'm curious. Is this something the English Parliament, is accepting of? I also wonder how this effects the whole Ireland situation? I'm not even sure of the current situation with the Irish, and English government...and will this spark the type of IRA violence, only in a Scottish version. Will the Scots be allowed to setup their own governing body, effectively allowing a reversal of British laws...like gun control for example?

 

[tartanterrier]

Ultimately, I think the best answer lies in the actual economic situation of Scotland that I'm really not qualified to remark on - i.e., do they have the resources to survive on their own? I reckon they'd want to stay in the EU, but will they go the way of Ireland in that respect, or the way of Luxembourg? The former is certainly a good example that population size isn't really an important factor; Luxembourg has just over half a million people but their 'per capita' statistics regarding wealth are usually at least twice or three times the next runner-up. Scotland has a little over 5 million and no shortage of space; someone once told me the Highlands were the least populated area in Europe, though I wonder how that actually stacks up against, say, northern Scandinavia.

According to the Yes (Independence) camp we have sufficient resources in oil & renewable energies (Wind & Wave) Then there is the Biotech stuff that's going to be the next biggest industry...apparently.So from that the Yes camp reckons that they can survive on their own without the assistance from Westminister. But on the Oil issue there may only be another 50 years worth left in the Scottish oil fields unless they find other sites that we have not touched yet in the Atlantic.

On the EU the Yes folks think that they will get a short cut into the EU membership.I might not be correct in this but to become an EU member, it takes something like 5 years to get in. and they think that it will only take 18 months.So by the time Scotland is fully independent from the UK (which will take 2 years after September) they will already be a new member of the EU and not a member of the EU with the UK.

As for the Scottish population I think it's currently at 6 million which is mostly concentrated around the big cities of Scotland (Edinburgh,Glasgow,Perth,Dundee Inverness & Aberdeen) there are areas which are not as populated like up in the North West Highlands and the Southern lowlands near the English border.But in comparison to Northern Scandinavia, I think they have a lot more sparsely populated areas than we do.

 

[tartanterrier]

TartanTerrier ... I find the whole Scottish independence debate rather sad.

I'm from North London, a genuine cockney and we hate anyone from 'South of the River' we don't even like crossing the Thames (we don't really) but you try getting a black cab to cross the Thames - it's been like this for thousands of years. I now live in the Wild West Country and the folk of The Forest of Dean hate people from the rest of Gloucestershire and their neighbours from Wales, so of course on a national bases we don't trust the Welsh, Scots or Irish and as for the bloody French over the channel!

But we both know it's only a bit of fun, we may have had our problems in the past whether it's religion, cattle reivers or taxes - but it was a Scottish King that came and accepted the British crown in 1603 and yes I know the Stuarts had a real run in with Parliament but so did the Tudors.

Since these Islands have been united look what we've done together for a few tiny islands - we've had an impact no other country has had in the world, look at law and education Scotland has been a world leader the industial revolution was as much based in Scotland as in Britain and Wales - half the worlds armies play the bloody bag pipes due to Scots regiments, I could go on and on. And even recently the 'Poll Tax', yes Scotland felt that they had been personnally attacked by Margaret Thatcher but as a nation that was defeated, and over the last 3 Labour governments, I think all 3 had mainly Scottish PM's in Cabinet, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown etc, etc.

I know having David Cameron talking down to you isn't great but we all have to put up with that - look at the flooding of the Somerset Levels he turns up gives an Etonian talk and goes back to London!

What I'm trying to say .... I think, is we're like a married couple - we may think being apart will be great, but like so many divorced couples we'll both end up wishing we'd never split.

Forget about the politcians - they all have their own agendas and (egos) look at what we've achieved together, like UKIP in England - yes everybody in England wants to be out of Europe ..... but do they ..... really?

Put it simply don't go I'll miss you :dontgo:

I agree with what you say and I don't personally think Independence is the answer, as I feel we are doing OK (being in the UK) as it is....so why change it. Although what the people will decide is unknown, although as things stand the temptation of voting for independence amongst the Scottish people is growing by the minute.Hopefully the Union will offer us more power at Holyrood, and that might make people want to stay in the Union,but until they do that, I think more people will sway to decide Yes.So by when the time comes my No vote might be insignificant if the majority decide to vote Yes.

Whatever happens - I'll still be here :wave:

 

[tartanterrier]

I'm curious. Is this something the English Parliament, is accepting of? I also wonder how this effects the whole Ireland situation? I'm not even sure of the current situation with the Irish, and English government...and will this spark the type of IRA violence, only in a Scottish version. Will the Scots be allowed to setup their own governing body, effectively allowing a reversal of British laws...like gun control for example?

I think the UK government were really naive and silly to let us have an independence vote,as they probably thought the independence argument was not a possibillity. Even when they also decided that it was only the people of Scotland that were to vote, and not the UK as a whole.I guess it just tells you how out of touch the Members of Parliament (MPs) in Westminister were with the Scottish nation which is why more and more people by the minute are thinking that independence is the answer.If Scotland becomes independent then it'll have all the powers without intervention from the UK.Just like the Baltic States (Estonia,Latvia & Lithuania) when the became independent from the USSR.So gun controls could be reversed from the rest of the UK, although I don't think that would happen in Scotland to be honest.

In relation to Ireland (or Northern Ireland most probably) I don't think the sectarianist violence would increase in Scotland as this is becoming an issue that most Scots want to finally put behind them at the moment. People are getting arrested on the spot for sectarianist abuse let alone violence.So I'd imagine that this would become even less, if Scotland was to move on, if it becomes a country of it's own.But whether that happens I'll never know till then.

 

[Vanilla Bear]

I would rather love to be united with Miss Hybrid and Red.

 

[Bluejaye]

A few things on this:

It's not just David Cameron talking down to the people of Scotland, Westminster Governments have been talking down to the Scot's for a very long time.

Clan warfare was mentioned, not quite sure how relevant Scot's killing Scot's is.
"Think of the number of dead from inter clan warfare, which has lasted for centuries!", I'm hoping the "has lasted for centuries" was a typo, since the clan wars are long past.

"I'm curious. Is this something the English Parliament, is accepting of" There is no English Parliament, this reinforces the opinion that many outside of the UK see English as British and British as English. Wouldn't you want to be away from a view like that?
"effectively allowing a reversal of British laws" Scottish law is different from English/Welsh law, in fact Scotland has an entirely separate judicial system.



Regarding the "NO" campaign, all we are hearing in Scotland is an almost constant litany of "you can't manage without us" and how resource poor Scotland doesn't contribute as much as it gains from the UK and needs to be part of the UK, you can't count on Oil revenue, can you give a 15 year financial forecast? No? well, you can't seriously expect the people of Scotland to vote for you.
To that I ask, if Scotland is such a big drain on the UK, wouldn't it be better without them? Wouldn't England, Wales and Northen Ireland have more?
Westminter factors in Oil Revenue in it's projections, so why can't an independant Scotland.
No one can provide an accurate 10 year forcast, so why is the "NO" campaign demanding a 15 year forecast?

Not forgetting the latest from Westminster, no to a common currency. Right now we technically have a common currency type arrangement, English and Scottish money are not the same, they are different currencies that are generally accepted by each country, although trying to spend a Scottish note South of the border isn't easy.
So I personally don't see why that would have to change, but I'm not a politician out to score points over the other guy.

The above are large arguments, but I believe it's the small things that will influence votes more.
Things like the face of the BBC's money experts, Paul Lewis not being able to get the name of the Scottish Finance Secretary correct. Calling him "Martin Swinney" instead of "John Swinney", not only did he get it wrong, but from what I was able to see that day, no one picked it up.



As for the "YES" campaign's everything will be sweet and lovely, you'd have to be a complete halfwit to even think that would be the case.
Of course Scotland will have to apply for EU membership, but then so does any other country. Assuming that would be the best way to go, not all continental European countries are in the EU and the couple that aren't, don't seem to be up the creak without a paddle.



Just a couple of my initial thoughts after reading some of the comments.

 

[Chopper3000]

My only concern would be whether the government have the balls to change the union flag? They didn't do it when the Irish fucked off 80-90 years ago.