unearthed photos show hiroshima aftermath

[negator]

warning: graphic

http://faculty.ucmerced.edu/smalloy/atomic_tragedy/photos.html

strikingly different from official u.s. photos of what was initially described as a 'military target'

 

[Quagmire33]

ive seen those before it's horrific it's anniversary is always on my dads birthday

 

[Facial_King]

warning: graphic

http://faculty.ucmerced.edu/smalloy/atomic_tragedy/photos.html

strikingly different from official u.s. photos of what was initially described as a 'military target'

negator, why do you hate America so much???

 

[negator]

negator, why do you hate America so much???

whoa whoa whoa. correction. negator loves America.

please rephrase the question.

 

[Facial_King]

whoa whoa whoa. correction. negator loves america.

please rephrase the question.

(was a joke, of course - You know the drill though. These days, to say or do anything remotely "critical" of the USA - or, rather INTERPRETED as remotely critical - is seen as tantamount to treason, even if what you are doing is simply laying out facts. The USA is the most morally supreme nation on Earth, and it has always been so and always will. What the USA does is automatically good, in the same way as goodness can be determined by whatever God does.)

 

[Facial_King]

whoa whoa whoa. correction. negator loves america.

please rephrase the question.

(was a joke, of course - You know the drill though. These days, to say or do anything remotely "critical" of the USA - or, rather INTERPRETED as remotely critical - is seen as tantamount to treason, even if what you are doing is simply laying out facts. The USA is the most morally supreme nation on Earth, and it has always been so and always will. What the USA does is automatically good, in the same way as goodness can be determined by whatever God does.)

 

[prof_porn]

Biggest single war crime in history. I understand the debate about it stopping the war early and thus saving lives, but such pics bring home how destructive nukes are.

 

[jedi007gotham]

Biggest single war crime in history. I understand the debate about it stopping the war early and thus saving lives, but such pics bring home how destructive nukes are.

I wouldn't classify it as a war crime but it was brutal and awful. I do believe entirely though, particularly with the Japanese Kamikaze attitude at the time, it was the only way to end the war with Japan. A ground invasion would have lead to so many more lives, both Japanese and Americans. So yes, it is awful but in my eyes, the Japanese people who had to suffer through it had no one to blame but their own arrogant government

 

[jedi007gotham]

The debate is bullshit; we have no more right to drop a nuclear weapon on anyone else than they have to drop one on us. We are pigs. It's hilarious that anyone can justify this. Tragic. If you think it's fair enough that Iraq or the next country that invades us nukes our families until our friends and loved ones are lying in pools of toxic waste incinerated to a crisp like in a microwave, with the excuse that "we wanted to end the war and get them out of our country" or whatever, then you are justified also in supporting this action. However if you think that this happening to your family would be horrific and unwarranted and unforgiveable, then there is no way you can condone our butcher-like war crimes, our sick, twisted, all-time low of nuking two cities full of people.

We will burn in hell, if there is hell. We continue these traditions today, and nothing changes. We are the only nation ever to nuke people. Hopefully we will always carry that infamous tag. We are like the Nazis, people. Really. Take my word for it. We have to do something about it.


Oh, arrogant because they didn't do what we wanted them to do?

Well guess what, when your family and my family are lying dead, we will have no-one to blame but our own arrogant government. Your words not mine. We have a HUGE debt to the world for this and everything else. After all the lies our government has told us over the years, you still believe this was the only way to end the war, really.

You're not the one whose business it is to classify war crimes. We have a world court and an international human rights organization for that, and they all classify this as the greatest single war crime of all time. Who cares what we think. We are on the side of the aggressors. The world calls it a war crime. I believe the world.

Actually there is a debate over whether it is a war crime. It is not a settled issue like you might wish it was. I don't care what some joke of an international organization says. The failures of the UN show just how much a joke so many of those organizations are. And there is a huge difference between if a country did that to us today and us doing it to the japanese then. For one, we are not using our military for expansionist purposes. Sure we influence other countries and things like globalization make American companies, media, etc. present in other countries. But this is entirely different from what the Japanese or the Nazis did which is to entirely claim the country as their own. Say whatever you want about Iraq, but no one in their right mind seriously thinks that once the conflict is resolved it will be a US territory.

Its rather sickening you hate your country but find it ok to defend Tojo's Japan which tortured and killed tons of Koreans and other Asians. I am not saying our country is perfect. Far from it, from the treatment of the native americans to slavery to racism and sexism and everything else, we are far from perfect. But we are the best there is. Even just the fact you can type a response flaming the government should show you how great the rights we have are compared to other countries like World War II era Japan.

As far as how this is apparently unjustifiable, I am sorry youd rather be speaking Japanese or German right now and living under a totalitarian system like they favored.

 

[jamrak]

what a coincidence... just a few days ago I read some kinda direction of how you should act in case of nuclear alarm. Of course I heard about it long time ago, but when you read things like that, you start to imagine different things, and there were a lot of awful realistic details of how the city would be destroyed, how concrete would be melted; detailed descriprion of the unclear blow sequence: the speed of optical wave, than burst wave, than reversed wave... and much more.. size of the area where everything will be destroyed completely: everything would be flat, no dirt, no grass, no mud, no microorganisms - the whole area will be covered with vitreous glass-like surface.

The "instruction" begins with the description of alerting: there would be only about 2 minutes from the "nuclear war alarm" (the moment of the missile detection) signal and the blow itself. Imagine it - no time to escape, that 2 minutes would be the most fucked up in your life. When you know that the end is near, and can't do anything to stop it. Than it was an instruction for the police, subway etc. I was reading that basic rules and recommendations of how to behave, where to hide and how to protect yourself, but at the end it was written that with modern powerful missiles even highly protected government bunkers would be destroyed (what are they created for? just in hope for missile malfunction of that the blow would not happen in full yield....) The same is with subway. And even suburbs of such large metropolises like NY, Moscow etc would be destroyed. That bombs in Hiroshima were many times less powerful than modern ones... And it is really scary to imagine the whole fucking large city to be totally annihilated, with all the buildings, all districts, all the parks, trees, lakes, and all the people! 20 million people with one missile. And keep in mind, that it never be one and only launch. They would all start flying like a crazy shit. I hate it. I did not want to start a thread about nuclear war, but when I saw that topic it all just splashed out.
Nuclear weapon is a really awful thing. It is scary just to think that all that shit is stored somewhere, and all that missilies are ready for action... It is like a death itself sitting in the room next to yours.

 

[jedi007gotham]

what a coincidence... just a few days ago I read some kinda direction of how you should act in case of nuclear alarm. Of course I heard about it long time ago, but when you read things like that, you start to imagine different things, and there were a lot of awful realistic details of how the city would be destroyed, how concrete would be melted; detailed descriprion of the unclear blow sequence: the speed of optical wave, than burst wave, than reversed wave... and much more.. size of the area where everything will be destroyed completely: everything would be flat, no dirt, no grass, no mud, no microorganisms - the whole area will be covered with vitreous glass-like surface.

The "instruction" begins with the description of alerting: there would be only about 2 minutes from the "nuclear war alarm" (the moment of the missile detection) signal and the blow itself. Imagine it - no time to escape, that 2 minutes would be the most fucked up in your life. When you know that the end is near, and can't do anything to stop it. Than it was an instruction for the police, subway etc. I was reading that basic rules and recommendations of how to behave, where to hide and how to protect yourself, but at the end it was written that with modern powerful missiles even highly protected government bunkers would be destroyed (what are they created for? just in hope for missile malfunction of that the blow would not happen in full yield....) The same is with subway. And even suburbs of such large metropolises like NY, Moscow etc would be destroyed. That bombs in Hiroshima were many times less powerful than modern ones... And it is really scary to imagine the whole fucking large city to be totally annihilated, with all the buildings, all districts, all the parks, trees, lakes, and all the people! 20 million people with one missile. And keep in mind, that it never be one and only launch. They would all start flying like a crazy shit. I hate it. I did not want to start a thread about nuclear war, but when I saw that topic it all just splashed out.
Nuclear weapon is a really awful thing. It is scary just to think that all that shit is stored somewhere, and all that missilies are ready for action... It is like a death itself sitting in the room next to yours.

I was too young for it (i am a Reagan baby) but did people really think hiding under desks etc. would save them if the Soviets nuked us? seems like a dumb planning choice... dont think a desk would withstand a nuclear attack or shock

 

[Facial_King]

we have no more right to drop a nuclear weapon on anyone else than they have to drop one on us.

I like that part.

That connects with what I don't get regarding the justification for a pre-emptive action against Iraq or whatever country for having, or even starting to make something that maybe/sorta could be used someday to make nuclear weapons.

To me it seems like the locker-room bully-tyrant writ large. He brings a knife into the room. Everyone knows he's used it before within a debatable situation.

Other, much smaller kids, start mumbling that maybe they'll bring a knife someday. Bully kid grabs 'em by the neck and threatens to castrate them if they try to bring a knife, or even walk into that section of the hardware store that sells knives.

So we and an elite few can have nukes, but others can't. I don't think I'll ever get that (and yes, I've heard all of the geopolitical strategy arguments; they don't convince me).

:dunno:

 

[jedi007gotham]

I like that part.

That connects with what I don't get regarding the justification for a pre-emptive action against Iraq or whatever country for having, or even starting to make something that maybe/sorta could be used someday to make nuclear weapons.

To me it seems like the locker-room bully-tyrant writ large. He brings a knife into the room. Everyone knows he's used it before within a debatable situation.

Other, much smaller kids, start mumbling that maybe they'll bring a knife someday. Bully kid grabs 'em by the neck and threatens to castrate them if they try to bring a knife, or even walk into that section of the hardware store that sells knives.

So we and an elite few can have nukes, but others can't. I don't think I'll ever get that (and yes, I've heard all of the geopolitical strategy arguments; they don't convince me).

:dunno:

What about the fact that while our politicans are crazy we have a fairly balanced elected system where as nutcases like Kim Jong Il and Ahmedinijad and to some extent Al-asad are given almost unlimited power

power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is a huge difference between a nutcase president whose power is diffused by other branches of government (assuming the us president was a nutcase for instance) and a nutcase who controls everything and has absolute power over their country

 

[jamrak]

To me it seems like the locker-room bully-tyrant writ large. He brings a knife into the room. Everyone knows he's used it before within a debatable situation.

Other, much smaller kids, start mumbling that maybe they'll bring a knife someday. Bully kid grabs 'em by the neck and threatens to castrate them if they try to bring a knife, or even walk into that section of the hardware store that sells knives.

So we and an elite few can have nukes, but others can't. I don't think I'll ever get that (and yes, I've heard all of the geopolitical strategy arguments; they don't convince me).

:dunno:

the only problem with nukes is that, in opposite to a knife, misuse of it could lead to the end of the planet Earth.
of course, the idea of an "elite few" having it, and no one else to be allowed is not convincing. but this idea came from the situation when it is impossible to press "undo" button, and to make all the existing nuclear arms to disappear in a moment. countries who already have got it just won't do it, cuz everybody is suspecting that someone will save their weapons secretly.

it is already a big problem, cuz a little possibility of stupid president/government of any nuclear country to start a war exists. but every new "nuclear club" member brings that risk to higher percent. of course, it is not fair not to let other to own something that you have. But... if it is all pregnant with dangerous consequences for the whole planet - I prefer that unfair life than fair death of the whole humanity.

I'd say that nuclear arms are like a virus. It can't be cured (the countries who have it, will never abandon it), but I think that we should do the best to prevent it from wide-spreading. Cuz it is deadly virus.

I think it is not a case of geopolitics, but of common sense. if everybody had that kinda "toy" - the end of the world would become was very easy. do not you think so?

Though, I hate when all that is used as a false pretext to start a war or to deliver a pre-emptive blow.

 

[jedi007gotham]

the only problem with nukes is that, in opposite to a knife, misuse of it could lead to the end of the planet Earth.
of course, the idea of an "elite few" having it, and no one else to be allowed is not convincing. but this idea came from the situation when it is impossible to press "undo" button, and to make all the existing nuclear arms to disappear in a moment. countries who already have got it just won't do it, cuz everybody is suspecting that someone will save their weapons secretly.

it is already a big problem, cuz a little possibility of stupid president/government of any nuclear country to start a war exists. but every new "nuclear club" member brings that risk to higher percent. of course, it is not fair not to let other to own something that you have. But... if it is all pregnant with dangerous consequences for the whole planet - I prefer that unfair life than fair death of the whole humanity.

I'd say that nuclear arms are like a virus. It can't be cured (the countries who have it, will never abandon it), but I think that we should do the best to prevent it from wide-spreading. Cuz it is deadly virus.

I think it is not a case of geopolitics, but of common sense. if everybody had that kinda "toy" - the end of the world would become was very easy. do not you think so?

Though, I hate when all that is used as a false pretext to start a war or to deliver a pre-emptive blow.

Wow I think you put it very well

 

[bombardier52]

I think it is unfair to judge the actions of those in WWII with today's lens regardless of how bad the action was. It wasn't even illegal to bomb a city then. There was little debate on the legality or morality of bombing civilians since the doctrine of the day on both sides was "Total War."

In examining these events [aerial area bombardment] in the light of international humanitarian law, it should be borne in mind that during the Second World War there was no agreement, treaty, convention or any other instrument governing the protection of the civilian population or civilian property, as the Conventions then in force dealt only with the protection of the wounded and the sick on the battlefield and in naval warfare, hospital ships, the laws and customs of war and the protection of prisoners of war.

The use of the nukes was just the end of a long line of, in my mind, very quesionable attacks in WWII. These two attacks weren't even the biggest killers. The fire bombing of Tokyo was worse killing around 100,000 and the fire bombing of Dresden killed maybe 40,000 to 60,000.

I have done a lot of thinking about this subject since at one time in my life I might have been called to do the same thing. I can't condem those that made the choice because I wasn't there and didn't have to face the decision. Would invading have been worse? That is very hard to say for certain but I think that is what Truman wrestled with before he ordered the attacks.

 

[KBM]

Karma... it's serious business

 

[meesterperfect]

I guess war is hell.
I feel for the people of japan who were killed and suffered horribly due to the 2 atomic bombs.
I also feel for the thousands of men who faught the japanese during that war,After the Japanese attacked the U.S.
Tortured, castrated, decapitated by the japanese. The hell they must have suffered through, survivors and those who perished.
I feel for the children who's fathers died in that war and the wives who had to live thier lives without thier fathers and husbands.
i feel so sad for the millions of Chinese that were slaughtered by the Japanese for about 30 years prior to those atomic bombs being dropped.
The Chinese men and children who were slaughtered, the women and young girls who were gang raped and then burned alive by the Japanese.
The thousands of babies that were used for bayonet practice by the Japanese.
Of course theres not a thread for them because it doesn't fit in with the Anti U.S. sentiment that is in fashion today.
LGC- liberal guilt complex.

 

[beauregard]

I guess war is hell.
I feel for the people of japan who were killed and suffered horribly due to the 2 atomic bombs.
I also feel for the thousands of men who faught the japanese during that war,After the Japanese attacked the U.S.
Tortured, castrated, decapitated by the japanese. The hell they must have suffered through, survivors and those who perished.
I feel for the children who's fathers died in that war and the wives who had to live thier lives without thier fathers and husbands.
i feel so sad for the millions of Chinese that were slaughtered by the Japanese for about 30 years prior to those atomic bombs being dropped.
The Chinese men and children who were slaughtered, the women and young girls who were gang raped and then burned alive by the Japanese.
The thousands of babies that were used for bayonet practice by the Japanese.
Of course theres not a thread for them because it doesn't fit in with the Anti U.S. sentiment that is in fashion today.
LGC- liberal guilt complex.

Touche!

How soon people forget history.

I just usually stand by the war is hell routine myself.

 

[senob44]

Actually there is a debate over whether it is a war crime. It is not a settled issue like you might wish it was. I don't care what some joke of an international organization says. The failures of the UN show just how much a joke so many of those organizations are. And there is a huge difference between if a country did that to us today and us doing it to the japanese then. For one, we are not using our military for expansionist purposes. Sure we influence other countries and things like globalization make American companies, media, etc. present in other countries. But this is entirely different from what the Japanese or the Nazis did which is to entirely claim the country as their own. Say whatever you want about Iraq, but no one in their right mind seriously thinks that once the conflict is resolved it will be a US territory.

Its rather sickening you hate your country but find it ok to defend Tojo's Japan which tortured and killed tons of Koreans and other Asians. I am not saying our country is perfect. Far from it, from the treatment of the native americans to slavery to racism and sexism and everything else, we are far from perfect. But we are the best there is. Even just the fact you can type a response flaming the government should show you how great the rights we have are compared to other countries like World War II era Japan.

As far as how this is apparently unjustifiable, I am sorry youd rather be speaking Japanese or German right now and living under a totalitarian system like they favored.

Nice, jedi! You just got a POTW nomination, and as a newb no less! :tongue:

I'm just glad I didn't have to say all that myself, because it is just how I feel. Also an excellent post above by meesterperfect.

Let me just say, that this sure was a tragedy in my eyes but I feel like these guys do that it was basically the least of the evils. Japan and their imperialist, torturous nature had to be stopped IMO. Southeast Asia and China was being terrorized by Japanese forces. Don't these overrun nations matter? Can we not protect our allies? Japan drew first blood at Pearl Harbor and by the time it got to Hiroshima and Nagasaki we had the choice to deal the crippling blow, or drag it out and lose thousands more lives on both sides than the atomic bombs would claim. Easy fucking decision.