The Trump Presidency
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Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
This conversation still suffers from literal one-dimensional thinking. Right-left are economic; authoritarian-libertarian are social. There are other grids besides the Political Compass one I favor (for simplicity), but they all agree that you can't accurately describe political positions one-dimensionally.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
No. That's a media narrative, and not an accidental one. You aren't the only one fooled by it, though - not by a longshot.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
Are you making a distinction between 'hard left', described below, and extremism to the left? If so, who are the extremists on the left who are at all in the national conversation (that is to say, we can discount the communists, as they aren't in the national conversation)?
Center-left is Bernie Sanders. This fits, considering the near endless (though, to be fair, still not to my knowledge properly polled, so grain of salt) interviews with Trump voters who would've voted Sanders had he made it to the general. I imagine many of these voters weren't so concerned with right or left as much as "Does he give a shit about me?" (populism, to be overly simple) - I think most folks could tell Sanders was honest, which was unique to him in contrast to the two main party nominees.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
Jagger, if you leave the label 'centrist' purely on the social scale, you're already surrendering the debate to the right. You're accepting the right as the default, with the center being defined by the other axis - this fits in with my earlier quip about centrist Democrats simply being Republicans who are okay with gays and women controlling their own bodies.
The left hasn't been moving. The overton window has. And the Democrats have been running hard right for decades. You even see this yourself with Bill Clinton. And Barack Obama? You really think a leftist president is going to get a $400k payout from Wall Street right out of office? You really think a leftist president would be pushing a right-wing trade deal even at the detriment to his own party's candidate? You think a leftist president, with his party in control of both chambers of Congress, would have his signature piece of legislation ensure the profits of healthcare and pharma corporations?
No. That's a media narrative, and not an accidental one. You aren't the only one fooled by it, though - not by a longshot.
Sanders was the only leftist candidate you've seen have so much success. Coupled with Corbyn's success in the UK, there's a small glimmer of hope we may yet pull out of this neoliberal crash-dive we've been in for the last half-century or so. I'm not holding my breath, though.
Still nitpicking here - these people are center-right. They just happen to be more libertarian on social issues than their Republican counterparts (and they are to the left of them, but this is like saying Arkansas is west of Florida and therefore in the west).
Thank you. The left has been tied to the Democrats only because the system allows for only two choices, and Arkansas happens to be closer than Florida.
'Reject' is a strong word - a no-name senator from a state whose population is roughly equal to my neighborhood's went up against the largest political apparatus ever built in this country headed by a candidate with more name recognition than anybody, and closed a 60-point polling gap and captured around 43% of the primary vote.
As I said, you SJWs only retort is "YOU'RE A RACISSSSST!!!!!"
This conversation still suffers from literal one-dimensional thinking. Right-left are economic; authoritarian-libertarian are social. There are other grids besides the Political Compass one I favor (for simplicity), but they all agree that you can't accurately describe political positions one-dimensionally.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
Are you making a distinction between 'hard left', described below, and extremism to the left? If so, who are the extremists on the left who are at all in the national conversation (that is to say, we can discount the communists, as they aren't in the national conversation)?
Center-left is Bernie Sanders. This fits, considering the near endless (though, to be fair, still not to my knowledge properly polled, so grain of salt) interviews with Trump voters who would've voted Sanders had he made it to the general. I imagine many of these voters weren't so concerned with right or left as much as "Does he give a shit about me?" (populism, to be overly simple) - I think most folks could tell Sanders was honest, which was unique to him in contrast to the two main party nominees.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
Jagger, if you leave the label 'centrist' purely on the social scale, you're already surrendering the debate to the right. You're accepting the right as the default, with the center being defined by the other axis - this fits in with my earlier quip about centrist Democrats simply being Republicans who are okay with gays and women controlling their own bodies.
The left hasn't been moving. The overton window has. And the Democrats have been running hard right for decades. You even see this yourself with Bill Clinton. And Barack Obama? You really think a leftist president is going to get a $400k payout from Wall Street right out of office? You really think a leftist president would be pushing a right-wing trade deal even at the detriment to his own party's candidate? You think a leftist president, with his party in control of both chambers of Congress, would have his signature piece of legislation ensure the profits of healthcare and pharma corporations?
No. That's a media narrative, and not an accidental one. You aren't the only one fooled by it, though - not by a longshot.
Sanders was the only leftist candidate you've seen have so much success. Coupled with Corbyn's success in the UK, there's a small glimmer of hope we may yet pull out of this neoliberal crash-dive we've been in for the last half-century or so. I'm not holding my breath, though.
Still nitpicking here - these people are center-right. They just happen to be more libertarian on social issues than their Republican counterparts (and they are to the left of them, but this is like saying Arkansas is west of Florida and therefore in the west).
Thank you. The left has been tied to the Democrats only because the system allows for only two choices, and Arkansas happens to be closer than Florida.
'Reject' is a strong word - a no-name senator from a state whose population is roughly equal to my neighborhood's went up against the largest political apparatus ever built in this country headed by a candidate with more name recognition than anybody, and closed a 60-point polling gap and captured around 43% of the primary vote.
There are very few politicians (if any at all) that aren't against the flood of immigrants into this country, both legal and illegal alike. Every one of them is hell bent on bringing in as much third world trash and consequently continuing to eradicate the middle-class in America. By default, therefore, they are all "leftist" politicians. Economically at least. They're all a bunch of double-dealing ratbastards who, every last one of them, should be tried for treason and fucking dealt with.
xfire
New Twitter/X @cxffreeman
What justification do you have in calling me a, "SJW"? The only time I see the term "SJW" is when you post. I might lean to the left and support more "librul" issues than conservative issues, but I'm an American first, fuck political parties, especially fuck people that put party first.
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
You literally have this backwards - immigrants as cheap labor is an economically right idea. Capitol loves it. Free market, remember?
Except liberals (unions) are behind the screams for allowing the entire third world into the country. Funny how that works.
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
Unsubstantiated hyperbole aside, that's irrelevant to the fact that cheap labor is an economically rightwing idea.
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
Cheap immigrant labor*, although it stands true enough as it was.
Other issues around immigration - refugee policies, cultural diversity, family policy, etc., etc., isn't left-right. It's on the other axis.
And communism is an economically left wing idea.
Mayhem
Banned
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
I mean, it is. Its abrupt interjection into a back-and-forth about immigration is out of place and apparently without a point though.
:dunno:
Mayhem
Banned
Regardless of context, it's a mantra that is as tiresome as it is pointless....as it is constant. Communism this, socialism that, combined with, "Hey Patriots, show your support for the 1st Amendment by persecuting those who exercise it." Again, "tiresome" is where we're at.
Before the interweb, you had to work at being political. Before 24 hour news outlets all needing something to yammer about (in competition with all the other yammerers), you needed to make your viewpoint worth someone else's time.
Now thanx to both, communism this, socialism that, fascism, constitutionality, Bill of Rights, blah blah blah.....all from people who haven't the foggiest clue what any of the above actually are.
I'd be delighted to hear your point of view on where Mr. Trump is on the political scale...you know, since democrats and liberals are "right" and all that.
LMAO
For the record, I've never once pegged him as some righty or conservative - I think the man is as bad a flip-flopper as I've ever seen in office, but, as I've stated on this board a few times, I chose him not for his conservatism, but for the single purpose of the impending Supreme Court picks.
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
I'm fairly in agreement with where the Political Compass put him:
He isn't defined so much by right or left so much as extreme authoritarianism and whatever economic whim, rightwing or leftwing, will enrich him in the moment (which to be fair, is inherently rightwing). The dude wants to be a dictator. I doubt he'd quibble much over whether it's a fascist or communist dictatorship.
To what end?
His flip slopping? Or the picks he would make?
Rattrap
Doesn't feed trolls and would appreciate it if you
Supreme Court picks.
Jagger69
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
No. I am speaking strictly in colloquial terms, not scientific ones. In today's America the words "left" and "right" are tossed about with little regard to their true implications and that's what I am guilty of doing here. Honestly, I didn't think it necessary to qualify any of this on a forum of this type.
I don't think your average Joe sits and thinks a whole lot about political philosophy to be honest. All he knows is he ain't happy with what's going on and the guy on TV is talking sense and he likes it. It might be Trump or Sanders and, despite the obvious differences in philosophy (in all candor, I think Trump's only philosophy is to self-aggrandizement and money but that's another thread), the distinction is irrelevant to him.
Again, I was speaking in general and colloquial terms. I totally concede your point from a scientific aspect.
Well, he was rejected as a nominee is what I meant. The contrast between democrat and republican thereby being that Bernie was not accepted to be the standard-bearer for the dems whereas Trump was for the GOP. Hey, I voted for Sanders in the Texas dem primary so I am by no means trying to marginalize him. I wish he HAD been the nominee....perhaps he would have won. How different would things be now had that taken place??? :dunno:
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