The Terri Schiavo situation.

McRocket

Banned
Nightfly said:
Christ...my eyes!!! Use a legible font, Reptile!!! lol :D


He's right Reptile. I don't even read all of your replies because it is SO hard on the eyes to do so. Your choice though.

As to what you wrote, I agree with most of what you said. Am I intolerant? YES. I am intolerant of ignorance and needless political manipulation by people who CLAIM to give a shit but who grab the flag of whatever issue is personally and politically expedient to them. It's disgusting.

As I stated before, the so-called "compassionate conservatives" have tried to hijack this issue, and it's been a big flop for them, exposing them for the B.S. artists they really are.

2008 cannot come quickly enough.

I agree. WHen will people realize. This world will be (imo) SO much better off when we learn to never, and I mean never, trust politicians on anything. Always assume they are lieing. Even if they are not; make them prove themselves on everything they say. How much deception do the masses have to endure before they get it? It is not the politicians that are bad (always). It is the system and human nature.
It is an old saying, but a good one, to me. 'Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.' That is just human nature.
The day we all ignore politicians and vote for everything directly will be a great day for the world.
And why do we need representatives in government? They were originally there before tv and radio - when there was no way to get to the capital and find out what was going on. So we elected people to go and do it for us. Well, we know what's going on now and imo, we do not need representatives any longer. Why do I need someone to go and vote for me? I can do it myself, thank you. And we certainly have the technology to do it. So why don't we then?

Soapbox speech over. For now...lol.
 
Nice post, mcrocket. I disagree with you about the need for representative government, but that's another topic. lmao :thumbsup: :nanner: :hatsoff:
 

McRocket

Banned
XanderJack said:
She is not alive, she is being aided by a machine. Ok, so if it is totally up to her whether she lives or dies, lets take her off all machines and let her decide. Seriously, if you are going to play this "it is her deision thing", then you have to take her off the machine. Her mind is dead, so the only thing she has left is her body. So take the body off the machine and let it decide if it will live or die. That would be fair wouldn't it?


Fair enough. But then by your logic, that should apply to people who depend on machines for survival and are 'with it' and want to live. If it applies to one; shouldn't it apply to all?
Why don't we take people off of pacemakers and let the body decide if it wants to live or die?
 
I just found this thread and as usual I’ve found the Right Wingers arguments hilarious. ILTS2009 began his argument with an attack on Terri Schiavo’s husband - complaining that “this man” had children with another woman – omigosh. What’s mind bending about this argument is that a guy who watches porn is making a family values argument – on a porn message board :rolleyes:

If ILTS2009 is interested in a mature debate perhaps he should read this…

What I find most disturbing about this is that the governments (both state and federal) have attempted (depending on how liberally you use the phrase “attempted”) to interfere with the courts’ decision on Ms. Schiavo. The sovereignty of all Republics (which the USA was one of the 1st) is based on the separation and independence of the Judiciary from the government legislature and executive – this means that no President, Governor, Senator or Civil servant can manipulate or attempt to manipulate the law or the courts based on his own morality or ideals. That the Bush brothers have to erode that independence in the name of their (or their financial backers’) god is outrageous :eek:

Personally I am pro-choice on all matters, which means I don’t want my morality forced on others (or the law) and I want everyone else’s kept the hell away from me! I wouldn’t want anyone to be in Terri Schiavo’s situation – furthermore I wouldn’t want to “let” my lover, my mother, my sister, die even if they were in her state – but I am not a doctor and if the Courts decided that it is time to take her off the machines then so be it. It is simply disgusting that either side of the “moral” divide would use Terri Schiavo for their own political motivation or jockeying for power and position. When someone falls into Terri Schiavo’s situation they are taken into the care of the state (if they are lucky). If one looses the ability to choose then the state must choose with consideration for the individual and there well being – without prejustice by government, popular, or familial views. To do so they will seek medical opinion and advice and if judges have made their decision based upon the sworn oath and evidence of a doctor or doctors that there is nothing more anyone can do for her – then that is a valid if terrible decision.

The sour reality of the world cannot be suspended so a drama of “happy families” is played out for a conservative government or population. It’s not just a matter of “snuffing” someone’s existence out because the authorities have given sanction - Terri Schiavo was not disabled she was brain dead – there is a profound difference. Disabled ppl cannot be lumped into the same category as ppl in a vegetative state or with global irreversible brain damage. It must be borne in mind that the courts don’t see the world (especially health cases) through a black and white lens – they have taken all that can be taken into account and have accordingly delivered a considered verdict. One thing is definite, the judges understand this case more thoroughly, than any President, Preacher, Prophet, or Pope could ever do.

I don’t envy the horrible position that Terri Schiavo’s families are in, one can only imagine what they have suffered (it is simply unimagined what Terri Schiavo has suffered) but we will all, unfortunately, come to understand that death is an integral (if not THE integral) part of life. In my opinion death is not an act or the will of a god (and I don’t care if that offends anyone else); for me there is no heaven and no hell. Death is tragic- it’s never beautiful, never clean and never easy - whatever way Terri Schiavo dies, it will be terrible. Moreover it would be a crime to force her, and her families to endure what the courts have decided is a terrible existence. :2 cents:
 
Hey all, for the most part a very thoughtful discussion. As someone in the US healthcare field, let me give some definitions and facts of the case. I can tell you that legally and ethically this is a slam dunk case in favor of removing Terry’s feeding tube. We all agree that politically this has turned into a fiasco. Your moral stance (which is different than the ethics involved) is your own opinion and the cause of most of this thread’s debate.

Euthanasia: an intervention used by the physician with the goal of terminating the patient’s life. This is neither legal nor ethical in the US (although physician-assisted suicide (slightly different definition) is legal in Oregon). Note that the specific cause of death with euthanasia is the physician’s intervention, not the underlying illness. Using this accepted definition Terry’s case is not an issue of euthanasia:
Withdrawal of life-sustaining treatments: The removal of burdensome interventions. This is legal and ethical in the US. Note that the specific cause of death is the underlying illness, not the intervention. Interventions include ventilators, feeding tubes, etc. Terry’s case falls under this category.
Persistent Vegetative State: Numerous physicians have declared Terry to be in this state. Her husband, for 4 years, took her around the country getting 2nd opinions before finally accepting this diagnosis. Also, Terry’s parents have testified in the past that they accept the diagnosis of Terry being in this state. Various neurological exams and imaging and functional studies have definitively shown Terry to be in this state. She has no cortical function left, only brainstem activity.
I strongly disagree with previous statements on this thread that have stated that Terry is suffering or that we don’t know if she’s in pain or not. The appreciation/recognition of pain is a cortical function. Even the most primitive aspects of pain are above the brainstem level. Although I have never personally examined Terry, from what I’ve read there is no medical doubt that Terry does not have the brain functions necessary to process pain. This renders the issue of the humanity of starvation moot, although I can tell you that it is a relatively benign way to die.
The question, then, is what would Terry’s wishes be? Without living wills or advance directives, we can only go by hearsay. The term hearsay has a negative connotation, but is still valuable. The courts have determined, over a dozen times, that there is credible evidence that Terry had expressed in the past her desire not to be a vegetable. This isn’t hard and fast evidence, but Scott Peterson was convicted on less evidence than this, and not many of us would argue with his conviction. In testimony, Terry’s parents have stated that even if Terry had told them she wouldn’t want a feeding tube, they would still use one. In the US, courts have overwhelmingly sided with the patient in these types of cases. It varies by state, but most states, including Florida, have the spouse as the surrogate decision maker for patients who cannot make their own decisions. Parents are usually next in line. Whoever it is, however, must use substituted judgment, meaning they must act in what is believed to be the patient’s wishes, even if they are contrary to the surrogate decision maker’s opinions. Terry’s husband (her surrogate decision maker) is honoring her wishes, her parents, who are not her surrogates, are not. This is why higher courts are refusing to hear the case: it’s a slam-dunk case that has been legally settled. The only good thing to come out of this is the public’s awareness of advance directives and legal wills. I encourage all of you to write down your medical wishes and to discuss them with your significant others.
 
Wow, it seems that i really touch a nerve here by starting this interesting debate, great posts everyone !! :)

Btw my views haven't changes. ;)
 

McRocket

Banned
bigdan1110 said:
Wow, it seems that i really touch a nerve here by starting this interesting debate, great posts everyone !! :)

Btw my views haven't changes. ;)

Yeah, and I would give you some rep if I could. Great thread started there Big Dan!
Here is some unofficial rep....


REP
 

McRocket

Banned
It's too bad someone just doesn't break into her room and shoot her dead...end of problem; for everyone. Except for the person that shot her. I mean, if she is going to die anyway. And Americans love their guns so. Why not put one to good use for once.

BTW my brother had a gun once. And man it was a rush to fire it. Still a stupid thing to let the masses have........but that is another thread.
 
Last edited:

XanderJack

Banned
mcrocket said:
Fair enough. But then by your logic, that should apply to people who depend on machines for survival and are 'with it' and want to live. If it applies to one; shouldn't it apply to all?
Why don't we take people off of pacemakers and let the body decide if it wants to live or die?

mcrocket, I said let her body decide because her mind is dead. So if we are going to let her decide it has to be her body because that is all she has left. People on pacemakers still have their mind with them. They can still think and take care of themselves. I know then you can bring up the whole nursing home thing. Should we get rid of them because they have to have help living. It is a very touchy subject. So it comes down to what the legal guardian of Terri Shiavo decides. And her legal gaurdian says she wanted to die in this situation, so you have to do what he says. That is why none of these appeals are working. All I know is that I am going to put in writing that if something like that ever happens to me I want to die. Hell I want to die if I ever have to go into a nursing home.
 
This is one of most interesting threads for a while... I think she should be allowed to pass on now after SO long. But the whole thing seems to be a political circus.
 
So finally her parents have decided to let her die !! Better late than never i guess... now if those freaks could leave also, she could really die peacefully...
 
Next week we will have Wacko Jacko on life support and everyone will be running to court to have the oxygen mask REMOVED! LMAO I bet no one would care, either. Weird bastard! :D :eek: :rofl2:

But seriously, it will be a relief when this Terri Schiavo mess is over. Let the woman pass off peacefully...
 
Last edited:
Personally I dont understand the fact that they say her death would be unnatural but that her life as she was living is considered natural. Living off feeding tubes for the past how many years isnt exactly what I call natural... :confused:
 
stronghammer said:
Hey all, for the most part a very thoughtful discussion. As someone in the US healthcare field, let me give some definitions and facts of the case. I can tell you that legally and ethically this is a slam dunk case in favor of removing Terry’s feeding tube. We all agree that politically this has turned into a fiasco. Your moral stance (which is different than the ethics involved) is your own opinion and the cause of most of this thread’s debate.

Euthasia: an intervention used by the physician with the goal of terminating the patient’s life. This is neither legal nor ethical in the US (although physician-assisted suicide (slightly different definition) is legal in Oregon). Note that the specific cause of death with euthanasia is the physician’s intervention, not the underlying illness. Using this accepted definition Terry’s case is not an issue of euthanasia:
Withdrawal of life-sustaining treatments: The removal of burdensome interventions. This is legal and ethical in the US. Note that the specific cause of death is the underlying illness, not the intervention. Interventions include ventilators, feeding tubes, etc. Terry’s case falls under this category.
Persistent Vegetative State: Numerous physicians have declared Terry to be in this state. Her husband, for 4 years, took her around the country getting 2nd opinions before finally accepting this diagnosis. Also, Terry’s parents have testified in the past that they accept the diagnosis of Terry being in this state. Various neurological exams and imaging and functional studies have definitively shown Terry to be in this state. She has no cortical function left, only brainstem activity.
I strongly disagree with previous statements on this thread that have stated that Terry is suffering or that we don’t know if she’s in pain or not. The appreciation/recognition of pain is a cortical function. Even the most primitive aspects of pain are above the brainstem level. Although I have never personally examined Terry, from what I’ve read there is no medical doubt that Terry does not have the brain functions necessary to process pain. This renders the issue of the humanity of starvation moot, although I can tell you that it is a relatively benign way to die.
The question, then, is what would Terry’s wishes be? Without living wills or advance directives, we can only go by hearsay. The term hearsay has a negative connotation, but is still valuable. The courts have determined, over a dozen times, that there is credible evidence that Terry had expressed in the past her desire not to be a vegetable. This isn’t hard and fast evidence, but Scott Peterson was convicted on less evidence than this, and not many of us would argue with his conviction. In testimony, Terry’s parents have stated that even if Terry had told them she wouldn’t want a feeding tube, they would still use one. In the US, courts have overwhelmingly sided with the patient in these types of cases. It varies by state, but most states, including Florida, have the spouse as the surrogate decision maker for patients who cannot make their own decisions. Parents are usually next in line. Whoever it is, however, must use substituted judgment, meaning they must act in what is believed to be the patient’s wishes, even if they are contrary to the surrogate decision maker’s opinions. Terry’s husband (her surrogate decision maker) is honoring her wishes, her parents, who are not her surrogates, are not. This is why higher courts are refusing to hear the case: it’s a slam-dunk case that has been legally settled. The only good thing to come out of this is the public’s awareness of advance directives and legal wills. I encourage all of you to write down your medical wishes and to discuss them with your significant others.


Im curious, as a healthcare worker, do you not think that as you have explained, Terry feels no pain, and as such, we should not be concerned with her in a physical sense, but more along the lines of her Husband and Parents mental well being? rather than just remove all life sustaining equipment & care, would it not be better for all if terry's life (if you could call it that) be ended by way of Euthansia? I look at the situation as this, legally the decision has been made by the courts, in favour of the Husband.... It is obvious to me that while losing a child is is one thing that parents struggle to live with (and in some case not able to do so) the thought of watching their child waste away would be inconceivable to Terry's parents... In effect end Terrys life by Physicians intervention and let the greiving and healing process begin.

I dont want to offend anybody here, But In Australia, the Healthcare system is mentioned weekly in the news. There is constant arguing at both State & Federal levels of Government in relation to funding and lack of resources... I dont claim to know about the Healthcare system in the U.S, but surely Terry's case would be a drain on the Hospital in which she currently resides...Would'nt those resources be better used elsewhere???
 
Invaded said:
Personally I dont understand the fact that they say her death would be unnatural but that her life as she was living is considered natural. Living off feeding tubes for the past how many years isnt exactly what I call natural... :confused:
That's right. If she died 15 years ago no one would even blink an eye at that (except her family). Society took Schiavo's life out of nature's hands, and now there is a problem. The problem is that there is now someone to blame for her life or death. People are divided on this issue because of human interference. It is no longer a process of natural selection - the dominant factor for all life on this planet - it is about people playing God. And we are cleary unable to handle this responsibility. To side with life, to side with death... we should not interfere beyond our capabilities.
But, here we are. And I still say now that we have gotten in over our heads, just to do whatever causes the least amount of people the least amount of pain and move on. When in doubt, go for the greater good.
 
JDB67:
misspelled euthanasia in my first post--my bad. It would be unethical to end Terrys' life by euthanasia. I want nothing more than the family's grief to end, but it is not the role of the physician or healthcare worker to directly cause death through intervention. And you're right: Terry's situation is a drain on the economic system. But I for one will never make a life or death decision based on economics. I refer you to the Wanglie case, as evidence for patient wishes taking precedent over health care institution economics.
 
stronghammer said:
JDB67:
misspelled euthanasia in my first post--my bad. It would be unethical to end Terrys' life by euthanasia. I want nothing more than the family's grief to end, but it is not the role of the physician or healthcare worker to directly cause death through intervention. And you're right: Terry's situation is a drain on the economic system. But I for one will never make a life or death decision based on economics. I refer you to the Wanglie case, as evidence for patient wishes taking precedent over health care institution economics.


Thanks for yor reply.
 

GibbsGrad2002

Mr. Nice gallery
Hey I live no more tha three blocks away for the hospice that she in I just have to say leave the women alone and let her die in piece
 
Her family appealed (yet again) today to a federal court and then (again) to the Supreme Court of the United States tonight. Both courts denied the parents' request and sided with established legal precendents.

The woman needs to be allowed to die, with mercy, and then we can move on, having learned a lesson about opportunistic political "conservatives" in the USA and also debating the euthanasia/"living will" issue.

Let the woman die in peace. This is absurd, IMHO. I don't wish death on anyone, but Terri Schiavo needs to be euthanised, for her OWN sake. What is happening to her is inhumane, whether she is feeling anything inside (she's brain-dead) or not.

Her parents and "compassionate conservatives" are the ones making her suffer. THEY should be the ones feeling guilt. She has been trapped as a "vegetable" in her carcass for 15 years...

We treat our pets/animals better than this... Give her an injection and let her soul rest in peace - finally.
 
Last edited:
What I don't get is why are people constantly content with playing God? When we are born we are already dying. Our time clock is counting down. When we are finally called to move on to another plane of existance people for some reason like to step in with their selfish views and try to prolong our life. People say that they are pro-life but what you're forgetting is that death is apart of life and if you're against that then you are against God's natural order of life. I'm agnostic. I believe in spirituality, I believe in God as my creator, and I believe in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. I don't believe in organized religion. I believe everyone has the right to choose their beliefs and I respect everyones beliefs even atheists. As to what this has to do with this thread well here you go. After x amount of years you have to let the soul go. God did not create the machines to prolong our life. If you truly love a person you have to know when to let go. Only then can you mourn and start healing.
 
Top