Re: Team orders. In my view, any sport with a team implies teamwork. The objective is for the team to succeed over the individual. I have absolutely no problem with the ban being lifted. In fact, I am eager to see how it changes the shape of the constructors championship, if for no other reason than teams no longer have to use subterfuge to accomplish their goals. I think far less emphasis should be placed on drivers title unless you're pitting one-driver / one-car teams against one another.
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***The Official 2011 Formula 1 Thread***
- Thread starter Supafly
- Start date
- Status
Rey C.
Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
I would say that's because the drivers are who the fans really cheer for. Other than Ferrari's "tifosi", most fans tend to cheer for their favorite driver, not so much the team they're driving for. The teams do care about the Constructors. Frank Williams has always been very clear about that. But the average fan will follow his favorite driver from team to team, just as I followed Senna from Toleman to Lotus to McLaren to Williams. And I'm assuming that M. Schumacher's fans have followed him from Benetton to Ferrari and now to Mercedes.
I think F1 is going to have to be very careful about how far the team orders thing goes. When a driver is about to secure a win and his teammate (who may need the points more) is well behind in 2nd place... if that driver literally pulls to the side, fans will be understandably upset. And if they turn off enough fans, viewership might fall. If viewership falls, the commercial value of the sport (and the teams) falls. If it spirals down far enough (as the IRL and Indy has done), you eventually wind up with a league full of ride buyers that no one cares about.
Love him or hate him, I think Ecclestone (and Todt) understands that there needs to be a healthy balance between sport and show.
larss
I'm watching some specialist videos
The latest News on the above.
"At the moment nothing at all has changed since yesterday, or the day before, or the day before that," Ecclestone has told the Press Association. "Sometime, a little later on this afternoon, I shall be speaking to the crown prince, and then we can make some decisions as to exactly what we want to do." Reports suggest that if the race is called off it may slot into the calendar at a later date, potentially in between the races in Abu Dhabi and Brazil, with the latter pushed into December from its current 27 November slot. It is reported that Bahrain pays £25m to host a grand prix, plus an additional £12m to guarantee it is the first of the new season.
"At the moment nothing at all has changed since yesterday, or the day before, or the day before that," Ecclestone has told the Press Association. "Sometime, a little later on this afternoon, I shall be speaking to the crown prince, and then we can make some decisions as to exactly what we want to do." Reports suggest that if the race is called off it may slot into the calendar at a later date, potentially in between the races in Abu Dhabi and Brazil, with the latter pushed into December from its current 27 November slot. It is reported that Bahrain pays £25m to host a grand prix, plus an additional £12m to guarantee it is the first of the new season.
larss
I'm watching some specialist videos
Supafly
Retired Mod
Here's a very in-deep article about the situation regarding the season that starts just now at Melbourne this weekend:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/autoracing/article/960526--predictions-for-the-formula-1-season
I think the major issue that will create controversy is the tire change to Pirelli. If they really crumble way faster then the tires of the last years, that will create drastic strategy changes...
http://www.thestar.com/sports/autoracing/article/960526--predictions-for-the-formula-1-season
I think the major issue that will create controversy is the tire change to Pirelli. If they really crumble way faster then the tires of the last years, that will create drastic strategy changes...
Smaller displacement turbos ...
One of the reasons the major American manufacturers limit their enrollment in Formula 1 (along with Le Mans Prototypes) is cost. It really does not net much marketing here in the US, and it's a drain that is unnecessary. American companies are about margins and volume. That's why IndyCar exists, as well as things like IMSA GT and GrandAm (although GM is involved with Le Mans, ACO sanctioned, FIA GT class today, Dodge was prior). This is much like other considerations in the US, like the Super Sonic Transport and Super Jumbo. American manufacturers did neither, but instead focused on fuel economy and distance.
So it can also have quite a bit to do with "technology transfer" from racing to production as well, beyond just cost. In a tightening world economy, at least for the west, there are these considerations for Europe as well.
The new Gen-Y American consumer has very much embraced such, and Ford is the first company to actually make loaded, high-end compacts and economy vehicles. Fiat is looking to do so with Chrysler's new line as well. GM has compacts and economies, but does not put higher end options in them in the US for fearing competition with their V6/V8 products, even if their non-US subsidaries do (although lines like the German-designed Cruze is ready-to-offer them if and when Ford/Fiat sales so Americans are open to such). Even VW in the US has started to come up with inexpensive, option-bare vehicles for just the US market, because Americans have often been allergic to spending much on an economy/compact.
But back to racing and technology transfer ... the US' IMSA GT series in the '80s can be credited with maturing a lot of commodity solutions today that are cheap thanx to economies of scale like ABS, Traction Control and other things. There's also something to be said about the expanding area of electrohydraulics that started in American racing, then manufacturing (Corvette F55 option), and are now spreading to world class sports cars (Ferrari 599, Audi R8, now others). Eventually this technology will make it to all sorts of components, incluing valves for complete, fully variable valve timing.
Understand I say all this as an American who is not a big fan IndyCar, and prefer Formula 1 (much less can't stand NASCAR). But even Formula 1 seems a bit "off-the-reservation," hence why I prefer sports car racing, which leads to real changes, let alone things I can drive if I so desire (even if I borrow a friend's or rent one instead of buying, to save money as I don't need such).
Formula 1 is filled with world class drivers, a lot of money and manufacturing and a lot of pressure. But I still love Grand Touring type of Sports Car racing with a more relaxed atmosphere, endurance racing and sportsmanship. There are still manufacturers and still great drivers, but the focus is on seeing what's coming next for production in many cases, or showcasing the best ideas. And it's still affordable for privateer teams, who surprise everyone at times.
I don't think Formula 1 will ever be IndyCar. Some Americans still want their own rules, and while I think that is wrong (hence why I side with Panoz and the ALMS side that the US should join the ACO/FIA instead of being separate), there will always be some reasons. But if Formula 1 can one-up American series in what transfers to real-world production, that will only garner more interest. One way to do that is with a sub-2L turbo, showing off European engineering and its superior experience at such.
Costs and other things are always a factor.
One of the reasons the major American manufacturers limit their enrollment in Formula 1 (along with Le Mans Prototypes) is cost. It really does not net much marketing here in the US, and it's a drain that is unnecessary. American companies are about margins and volume. That's why IndyCar exists, as well as things like IMSA GT and GrandAm (although GM is involved with Le Mans, ACO sanctioned, FIA GT class today, Dodge was prior). This is much like other considerations in the US, like the Super Sonic Transport and Super Jumbo. American manufacturers did neither, but instead focused on fuel economy and distance.
So it can also have quite a bit to do with "technology transfer" from racing to production as well, beyond just cost. In a tightening world economy, at least for the west, there are these considerations for Europe as well.
Yep, there is still the engineering challenges of an I4 with turbos at a small displacement. It can lead to major advances in actual, production solutions. The world is moving to sub-2L turbo-charged vehicles more and more for economy and performance.
The new Gen-Y American consumer has very much embraced such, and Ford is the first company to actually make loaded, high-end compacts and economy vehicles. Fiat is looking to do so with Chrysler's new line as well. GM has compacts and economies, but does not put higher end options in them in the US for fearing competition with their V6/V8 products, even if their non-US subsidaries do (although lines like the German-designed Cruze is ready-to-offer them if and when Ford/Fiat sales so Americans are open to such). Even VW in the US has started to come up with inexpensive, option-bare vehicles for just the US market, because Americans have often been allergic to spending much on an economy/compact.
But back to racing and technology transfer ... the US' IMSA GT series in the '80s can be credited with maturing a lot of commodity solutions today that are cheap thanx to economies of scale like ABS, Traction Control and other things. There's also something to be said about the expanding area of electrohydraulics that started in American racing, then manufacturing (Corvette F55 option), and are now spreading to world class sports cars (Ferrari 599, Audi R8, now others). Eventually this technology will make it to all sorts of components, incluing valves for complete, fully variable valve timing.
Understand I say all this as an American who is not a big fan IndyCar, and prefer Formula 1 (much less can't stand NASCAR). But even Formula 1 seems a bit "off-the-reservation," hence why I prefer sports car racing, which leads to real changes, let alone things I can drive if I so desire (even if I borrow a friend's or rent one instead of buying, to save money as I don't need such).
Formula 1 is filled with world class drivers, a lot of money and manufacturing and a lot of pressure. But I still love Grand Touring type of Sports Car racing with a more relaxed atmosphere, endurance racing and sportsmanship. There are still manufacturers and still great drivers, but the focus is on seeing what's coming next for production in many cases, or showcasing the best ideas. And it's still affordable for privateer teams, who surprise everyone at times.
I don't think Formula 1 will ever be IndyCar. Some Americans still want their own rules, and while I think that is wrong (hence why I side with Panoz and the ALMS side that the US should join the ACO/FIA instead of being separate), there will always be some reasons. But if Formula 1 can one-up American series in what transfers to real-world production, that will only garner more interest. One way to do that is with a sub-2L turbo, showing off European engineering and its superior experience at such.
larss
I'm watching some specialist videos
Very insightful post by Prof V, above (I'm not going to quote his whole article, just scroll up a line or 2 if you want to read it.)
I would just say that it is a shame that the Japanese in both Honda and Toyota have pulled out of F1 for now, so that it would not just be European engineering in F1. The wider the range of manufacturers the better for F1 and motor sport in general.
I would just say that it is a shame that the Japanese in both Honda and Toyota have pulled out of F1 for now, so that it would not just be European engineering in F1. The wider the range of manufacturers the better for F1 and motor sport in general.
larss
I'm watching some specialist videos
Not a massively exciting start to the season, but some good drives.
Vettel wins, seemingly easily in a car without KERS
Hamilton comes in second with a damaged car
Petrov comes in a very creditable third.
Button looked to be baulked at the start by a slow starting Hamilton who , although lost 2nd to Webber, managed to get it back by the 2nd corner. Button fought hard to get in front of Massa, and eventually made a illegal move which ended up with him getting a drive through penalty.
All in all, an interesting race, but I just hope that Red Bull aren't just going to run away with the season.
Vettel wins, seemingly easily in a car without KERS
Hamilton comes in second with a damaged car
Petrov comes in a very creditable third.
Button looked to be baulked at the start by a slow starting Hamilton who , although lost 2nd to Webber, managed to get it back by the 2nd corner. Button fought hard to get in front of Massa, and eventually made a illegal move which ended up with him getting a drive through penalty.
All in all, an interesting race, but I just hope that Red Bull aren't just going to run away with the season.
Supafly
Retired Mod
Okay, soon the Grand Prix of Istanbul will be on!
Here's the starting grid:
Turkish Grand Prix grid
Row 1 1. Mark Webber 1’26.295
Red Bull-Renault
2. Lewis Hamilton 1’26.433
McLaren-Mercedes
Row 2 3. Sebastian Vettel 1’26.760
Red Bull-Renault
4. Jenson Button 1’26.781
McLaren-Mercedes
Row 3 5. Michael Schumacher 1’26.857
Mercedes
6. Nico Rosberg 1’26.952
Mercedes
Row 4 7. Robert Kubica 1’27.039
Renault
8. Felipe Massa 1’27.082
Ferrari
Row 5 9. Vitaly Petrov 1’27.430
Renault
10. Kamui Kobayashi 1’28.122
Sauber-Ferrari
Row 6 11. Adrian Sutil 1’27.525
Force India-Mercedes
12. Fernando Alonso 1’27.612
Ferrari
Row 7 13. Pedro de la Rosa 1’27.879
Sauber-Ferrari
14. Sebastien Buemi 1’28.273
Toro Rosso-Ferrari
Row 8 15. Rubens Barrichello 1’28.392
Williams-Cosworth
16. Jaime Alguersuari 1’28.540
Toro Rosso-Ferrari
Row 9 17. Nico Hülkenberg 1’28.841
Williams-Cosworth
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi 1’28.958
Force India-Mercedes
Row 10 19. Jarno Trulli 1’30.237
Lotus-Cosworth
20. Heikki Kovalainen 1’30.519
Lotus-Cosworth
Row 11 21. Timo Glock 1’30.744
Virgin-Cosworth
22. Bruno Senna 1’31.266
HRT-Cosworth
Row 12 23. Lucas di Grassi 1’31.989
Virgin-Cosworth
24. Karun Chandhok 1’32.060
HRT-Cosworth
To me, the miracle is the wrecking of the car by Vettel and then coming back with the repaired car. Strating from 3rd position after THAT, nice job :clap:
Here's the course:
http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/turkey_850/circuit_diagram.html
I might be mistaken, but I think they are racing the opposite direction than usually, I have the impression that most of the time, after the start, the first corner is to the right. Will that make a change?
And with the temperatures... I thought it would be hotter there, but now there is a cool weather forecast with rain, maybe.
So, who will be watching too?
I predict that the three on the podium will be Webber, Hamilton and Vettel. Alonso will wail about bad material and / or other drivers being unfair after failing to come in better than his team expects of him :1orglaugh
Here's the starting grid:
Turkish Grand Prix grid
Row 1 1. Mark Webber 1’26.295
Red Bull-Renault
2. Lewis Hamilton 1’26.433
McLaren-Mercedes
Row 2 3. Sebastian Vettel 1’26.760
Red Bull-Renault
4. Jenson Button 1’26.781
McLaren-Mercedes
Row 3 5. Michael Schumacher 1’26.857
Mercedes
6. Nico Rosberg 1’26.952
Mercedes
Row 4 7. Robert Kubica 1’27.039
Renault
8. Felipe Massa 1’27.082
Ferrari
Row 5 9. Vitaly Petrov 1’27.430
Renault
10. Kamui Kobayashi 1’28.122
Sauber-Ferrari
Row 6 11. Adrian Sutil 1’27.525
Force India-Mercedes
12. Fernando Alonso 1’27.612
Ferrari
Row 7 13. Pedro de la Rosa 1’27.879
Sauber-Ferrari
14. Sebastien Buemi 1’28.273
Toro Rosso-Ferrari
Row 8 15. Rubens Barrichello 1’28.392
Williams-Cosworth
16. Jaime Alguersuari 1’28.540
Toro Rosso-Ferrari
Row 9 17. Nico Hülkenberg 1’28.841
Williams-Cosworth
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi 1’28.958
Force India-Mercedes
Row 10 19. Jarno Trulli 1’30.237
Lotus-Cosworth
20. Heikki Kovalainen 1’30.519
Lotus-Cosworth
Row 11 21. Timo Glock 1’30.744
Virgin-Cosworth
22. Bruno Senna 1’31.266
HRT-Cosworth
Row 12 23. Lucas di Grassi 1’31.989
Virgin-Cosworth
24. Karun Chandhok 1’32.060
HRT-Cosworth
To me, the miracle is the wrecking of the car by Vettel and then coming back with the repaired car. Strating from 3rd position after THAT, nice job :clap:
Here's the course:
http://www.formula1.com/races/in_detail/turkey_850/circuit_diagram.html
I might be mistaken, but I think they are racing the opposite direction than usually, I have the impression that most of the time, after the start, the first corner is to the right. Will that make a change?
And with the temperatures... I thought it would be hotter there, but now there is a cool weather forecast with rain, maybe.
So, who will be watching too?
I predict that the three on the podium will be Webber, Hamilton and Vettel. Alonso will wail about bad material and / or other drivers being unfair after failing to come in better than his team expects of him :1orglaugh
larss
I'm watching some specialist videos
That grid is not right, Mr Fly.
Vettel starts on pole with Webber second, Rosburg 3rd, then Hamilton, Alonso, Button.
1 S Vettel 1:25.049
2 M Webber 1:25.454
3 N Rosberg 1:25.574
4 L Hamilton 1:25.595
5 F Alonso 1:25.851
6 J Button 1:25.982
7 V Petrov 1:26.296
8 M Schumacher 1:26.646
9 N Heidfeld 1:26.659
10 F Massa 1:26.395
Full grid on the F1 website - http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2011/850/6841
Vettel starts on pole with Webber second, Rosburg 3rd, then Hamilton, Alonso, Button.
1 S Vettel 1:25.049
2 M Webber 1:25.454
3 N Rosberg 1:25.574
4 L Hamilton 1:25.595
5 F Alonso 1:25.851
6 J Button 1:25.982
7 V Petrov 1:26.296
8 M Schumacher 1:26.646
9 N Heidfeld 1:26.659
10 F Massa 1:26.395
Full grid on the F1 website - http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2011/850/6841
Last edited:
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