The Coming Supermajority Nightmare ?

How is a canuck style medicare system going to matter?

The states has trillions in unfunded wacko programs, whats a half trillion more going to do? A canuck style socialized medicine will cost the average person a hell of alot less in the long run for better overall care.

Why, just ask Cuba and its lower infant mortality rate than the one you yanks have. Dont trust me, look on the CIA fact check site.
 
Seriously ...

I don't believe that Jefferson said that. I looked into it and the quote is more commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin and also generally dismissed as false lacking any original citation.
that metaphor really doesn't make much sense and it seems to be arguing that a minority dominating the majority is better than the alternative, which doesn't seem like such a good thing to me.
Actually, Franklin has many books, and I recommend reading them. Not merely for the quotes, but more importantly, for their all-important context!

Franklin (among countless others) warn, repeatedly, about relying on government to solve problems created by its people. That the responsibility of, by and for the people are by the people, not their elected governments.

Franklin sided with Virginians, not so much his own Penns (and other New England representatives), during the arguments of both our independence, as well as during the creation of our union and its organization. It's a crucial and key difference to understand where the alleged "Founding Fathers" actually differed, and greatly!

Franklin, Jefferson, Adams and select others were "moderates" at times, but then often found themselves at "odds" with each other, while still having great respect. Franklin would clearly side with Jefferson's Republican (which founds the basis for both Democrat and Republican parties today) ideals more than Hamilton's (among other New England) Federalists, although Washington and Adams both often caught themselves in between the basics they agreed upon, but the fiscal aspects that were often of great argument.

The biggest problem I've had with both Republicans and Democrats is that they've lost all of the best ideals that came from Franklin, Jefferson and the lot, many of which even Federalists agreed with. We've sunk ourselves into the lot that believes government should control everything -- the Republicans believing it is to tax and give back to corporations (essentially monopolies aka facist economic model) to control, the Democrats believing it is to tax (even more) and build major, social institutions (also guaranteed funding and control aka socialist economic model).

Both destroy the simple balance that any "organization" can and must fail if it fails to be "efficient" and "productive." Both facist and socialist systems fail because institutions become "us for our sake" and just eat up money building towers of administration and "oh, we need more funding." In capitalist systems, if you are not producing at a cost expected by a consumer, they don't buy, and you go down the tubes -- or worse yet, you price yourself out of the market, when another company can do it better and cheaper (usually due to less overhead).

In the engineering world, the classic case was the Japanese v. American manufacturing in the '70s-'80s. Despite common assumption, it was not labor costs (and definitely not by '82-83), but both management (way too top-heavy in US companies) and administrative "towers" being built. Engineers actually like the concept of "socialism," but our strong understanding of microeconomics and the "private v. public incentive" have taught us that capitalism tends to balance.

In the Soviet Union, engineering was taught without microeconomics. After all, again, engineering finds socialism very efficient -- no business manager "overhead" -- if you've never studied microeconomics. Like many things engineering, it's the input of many factors -- both technical and social -- but in a way that can be described, analytically (with equations) -- as a system of interactions.
 
Someone always has to pay, how is it fair that the poor are the only one's that have to?

How do you figure?

The top 5% of earners already pay 60% of income taxes, and that's about to go up.

At what point/percentage, if any, will you cease considering them "bitches"?
 
Define "better"?

How is a canuck style medicare system going to matter?

The states has trillions in unfunded wacko programs, whats a half trillion more going to do? A canuck style socialized medicine will cost the average person a hell of alot less in the long run for better overall care.

Why, just ask Cuba and its lower infant mortality rate than the one you yanks have. Dont trust me, look on the CIA fact check site.
Define "better"?

In the US, you have stated that "absolute require" all sorts of procedures that are unavailable in many countries like Cuba.
But then you have untold numbers that don't get "basic" healthcare as well.

So if you only look at the statistics that cover "basic" healthcare, we lose here in the US.
But if you look at the statistics where insurance companies have to cover all sorts of procedures, some even not available (or covered) in various, western countries of the EU, it's a different ballgame.

So, again, define "better"?
Especially after you've read what Illinois requires companies to cover, including many things Obama voted for.

Things that are not remotely "life threatening" or "preventive medicine."
Part of our problem here in the US is that people have the attitude, "if the treatment exists, it should be covered."

Canada, the UK, France and many other nations have different "levels" of coverage, including some not available at all, that are covered by some plans in the US.
So, again, define "better" for me?

From what I've seen, it means the "Lowest Common Denominator."
It addresses the infant mortality rate, but ignores the various, multi-million-dollar procedures that those of us who pay $15,000/year in insurance premiums (some post-tax for those of on a "W2" from an employer who doesn't offer the plan, but we choose our own), because we think it's worth it.

Should you take away my choice to spend that kind of money?
Or worse yet, make it 4x as more expensive for me to do so (which may happen if it's still available with a "lowest common denominator" system around)?
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
I don't believe that Jefferson said that. I looked into it and the quote is more commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin and also generally dismissed as false lacking any original citation.

that metaphor really doesn't make much sense and it seems to be arguing that a minority dominating the majority is better than the alternative, which doesn't seem like such a good thing to me.

You're right, it was Ben...I was thinking about another quote as I wrote it, and crossed my wires. However, I stand by it, because to me it means, just because the masses want one thing, doesn't mean it's the right, or fair thing for everyone, and the right to fight that decision is what freedom is all about.
titsrock said:
Yes. That quote seems more likely something nonsensical to which Ron Paul probably said once. It was most likely a piece of "flag-waving" profundity which was meant to stoke up and froth up the rednecks and bibletoter crowd. It is too modern for Jefferson or Franklin.

That works for me too. I have no problem with Ron Paul, I voted for him...and I GLADLY wave my flag whenever I can. Sorry I'm proud to be American, and believe in the Constitution.
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Liberals would dominate the entire government in a way they haven't since 1965, or 1933.

That's all we need. :rolleyes:


I think it will be interesting to see what the Democrats can do when they don't have to contend with a bunch of dumbed-down, bible-thumping retards.

They will take this country down the road you don't want. Just keep watching. :hatsoff:

Just because a politician says they follow Christianity, doesn't mean they do. Just watch how they act. They aren't and people who actually look things up know this.

Actually the American people are dumbed down, they have been for years. They don't have to have a faith.

deliberatedumbingdown.com
 
The indirect relation of income to wealth when it comes to income taxes ...

How do you figure?
The top 5% of earners already pay 60% of income taxes, and that's about to go up.
It gets even more interesting when you increase that first percentage just a little more (it jumps to 96%).
A quick trip to the OMB going back to the '70s shows an interesting trend.

As more of the higher income earners pay more taxes, the gap between none and existing wealth actually gets bigger.
Now why is that?

Because increasing income tax ends up taxing discretionary income.
Discretionary income can be used many ways, but it's rarely used to "buy luxuries."
Again, people think of "Paris Hilton" when that's about existing wealth, not "high income."

For the self-employed and small business owners, nearly all of the former and a good half of the latter, they operate on income taxes (not corporate).
Such is how 50% of Americans are employed (mainly small businesses, and then a small percentage of/by themself), and where all this recent "Joe the Plumber" commentary comes from.

Most socialists think it's non-sense, but "Joe the Plumber" (even if I disagree with McCain in general as well as his "use" of him) does actually reflect the "disconnect" Obama has with that very crucial minority in our economic system.
Unfortunately, most people aren't self-employed or small business owners, so they have no comprehension of it.

At what point/percentage, if any, will you cease considering them "bitches"?
The key to understanding the "socialist math" is that income earners never invest their money.
They only use it to "live on," so they "don't need it." ;)

I dare some of you to come and live as poor as my wife and I do.
And then pay the taxes I do. ;)

I people "really, really want a 'fair fax'" that addresses people who "make more than is required to 'live on'" then it should be a luxury tax on excessive items.
 
It's 5th grader time ...

Between the socialist and facist economic proponents, oh, totally agreed.

Obama's comments on McCain's insurance and taxes is designed for a 5th grader.
McCain's comments on Obama's guilt-by-association is designed for a 5th grader.

Palin's having only been in the race a few months is her greatest issue (just like Obama's was 2 years ago).
Biden is probably the only "experienced" politician here, but I stress "politician" -- although honorable to his word at times, I'll admit.

Then again, so is W. if you get right down to it, he does what he says he's going to do and sticks with it.
It's one of the reasons I haven't liked Biden in the past either, especially since his socialist agenda smacks me as bad as W. and the facists.

NOTE: "facists" as in economic model, not the entire Nazi regime (I'm sorry, that doesn't fit).
 
Re: The indirect relation of income to wealth when it comes to income taxes ...

How do you figure?

The top 5% of earners already pay 60% of income taxes, and that's about to go up.

At what point/percentage, if any, will you cease considering them "bitches"?

I guess you didn't see this thread/article.

The key to understanding the "socialist math" is that income earners never invest their money.
They only use it to "live on," so they "don't need it." ;)

I dare some of you to come and live as poor as my wife and I do.
And then pay the taxes I do. ;)

I people "really, really want a 'fair fax'" that addresses people who "make more than is required to 'live on'" then it should be a luxury tax on excessive items.

I kind of agree with that. it seems like the difference is that "socialists" think the individual should support the society, whereas "capitalists" think that the society should support the individual. Yeah, I know people like to turn that around, but that's what it really boils down to.

It's good for society that money circulates and that the economy flows smoothly. long term gains are much better than short term gains, even though most people don't see it that way. accumulation of wealth is not good for society, it stagnates the economy.

you are right that most "rich people" don't go out and buy yachts. It would actually be better that they did. Most of them that don't invest it just sit on it and then pass it on to their kids when they croak (that's the real Paris Hilton syndrome).

the way I see it is that people should get incentives (tax cuts are a good way) to invest, or else they should have to pay the merchant of Venice for the luxury of luxury.

In feudal times you had to pay the king for the privilege of doing business in his kingdom. Nothing's changed since then. As the saying goes, love it or leave it.

what I want to know is that if you've taken a vow of poverty, then what do you care if the government takes all your money? Seriously, no one in the 30+% bracket is being taxed down to minimum wage, so the well off are still doing pretty good; to complain about it just sounds like greed to me.

Hey, I got no love for Big Brother and I'd be happy with tax cuts all the way down the line, but it doesn't work like that.
 
They will take this country down the road you don't want. Just keep watching. :hatsoff:

Just because a politician says they follow Christianity, doesn't mean they do. Just watch how they act. They aren't and people who actually look things up know this.

Actually the American people are dumbed down, they have been for years. They don't have to have a faith.

deliberatedumbingdown.com

I don't give a fuck if a politician follows christianity or not. I'd prefer it if politics were completely free of religion. Considering how idiotic it is to believe in that made up bullshit.

But think whatever you want dude. Keep on being one of those people "who actually looks things up". But if you think having "faith" means you aren't dumbed down, then I got a bridge I wanna sell ya'.
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Between the socialist and facist economic proponents, oh, totally agreed.

Thanks, and their smear campaigns are transparent.

I guess the majority of American's aren't smarter than a fifth grader.
Easily deceived and led. Sad.

I don't give a fuck if a politician follows christianity or not. I'd prefer it if politics were completely free of religion. Considering how idiotic it is to believe in that made up bullshit.

But think whatever you want dude. Keep on being one of those people "who actually looks things up". But if you think having "faith" means you aren't dumbed down, then I got a bridge I wanna sell ya'.

Actually the American people are dumbed down, they have been for years. They don't have to have a faith.

deliberatedumbingdown.com


Thanks for proving my point, tubuler. :hatsoff:
 
Thanks for proving my point, tubuler. :hatsoff:

I don't think anybody really knows what point you're attempting to make.
Just looks like you've made a retarded comment about politicians not really following christianity and then you spammed us with a link to a website for a book about the problems with the nations educational system.

Whatever point you're trying to convey lacks any intelligible meaning. Maybe you should try and clear it up for all of us "deliberately dumbed down" people.:hatsoff:
 
Yes, you're dumbed down and my comment lacks nothing.

Oh really? Well lets examine the comment more closely.

They will take this country down the road you don't want. Just keep watching. :hatsoff:

^This part of the comment is nothing more than conjecture.

Just because a politician says they follow Christianity, doesn't mean they do. Just watch how they act. They aren't and people who actually look things up know this.

^This part of the comment makes little, to no sense at all.

You start by saying that "Just because a politician says they follow Christianity, doesn't mean they do". OK... Who gives a fuck? Whats your point? Are you saying that a politician must follow christianity or he/she is bad?

Then you go on to tell us to "Just watch how they act". OK... What are we to deduce from that?

Then you wrote, "They aren't and people who actually look things up know this". They aren't what? Following christianity? And what sources are you looking these things up in? This entire sentence looks like it was formulated by a 3rd grader.

Actually the American people are dumbed down, they have been for years. They don't have to have a faith.

^OK... That's a bit of a general statment don't you think? Are you saying that all of the American people are "dumbed down"? Aren't you an American? Weren't you educated in the U.S.?

And what the hell does this sentence, "They don't have to have faith", mean? They don't have to have faith in what exactly? God? What in the hell are you talking about? What does faith have to do with the "dumbing down" of the American people (besides the fact that those who do have faith in God are the ones that are dumbed down)?

You think your comment lacks nothing? I hate to tell you this (actually I love it), but your comment lacks substance, coherence and any real meaning. So don't insult me for pointing out the fact that what you wrote makes you look like a complete ignoramus.
 
Tubuler, like you said you never look anything up. So, I just don't care.

I'm Super Serial! :tongue:

Never said that actually.

Nice try though. You got anything else you wanna make up?

I think this is one of the easiest arguements I've had on FO. You are truly an unworthy opponent. Yet another 'W' in the win column for tubuler.

Good thing you decided you "just don't care". Better you stop now before you embarrass yourself further.:hatsoff:
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Just because a politician says they follow Christianity, doesn't mean they do. Just watch how they act.

I don't want my political leaders to follow Christianity or any other religious doctrine. I want them to follow the constitution.
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Never said that actually.

Sure you did, you implied it.


I don't want my political leaders to follow Christianity or any other religious doctrine. I want them to follow the constitution.

They need to follow the Constitution, preamble, Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence.
But, most don't.

Without faith they wouldn't work.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.

They have the right to follow their faith.
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
Can somebody sum this up in language a retard can understand? Cause I just don't get what the fuss is all about :dunno:
 
Can somebody sum this up in language a retard can understand? Cause I just don't get what the fuss is all about :dunno:

Those friendly right wingers are scared that if Obama is elected and because you have a democrat congress and house of representitives, it is some how going to bring about the end of the world, or it is going to summon the dark lord Satan, I dont know I didnt read it all :hatsoff:
 
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