One of the reasons that I respect Ron Paul is the same reason that the (make believe) fiscal conservatives in the Club for Growth don't like him: Paul is for free trade ONLY when it's also fair trade. He opposes NAFTA (as I do) and he opposes the WTO (as I do). He basically opposes these trade agreements that do nothing more than ship American jobs out of this country and bring cheap, foreign crap back on the return trip. The Club for Growth's attitude is, if that's what happens, then that's what happens. I question their patriotism. My belief is, once their kind ruins this nation, they'll just learn to speak Spanish or Chinese and they'll move somewhere else, like the carpet baggers that they are. When it comes to the military, the U.S. doesn't mind flexing its muscles. But when it comes to trade disputes, we're the biggest pussies in the whole world. Bush did next to nothing in regard to trade disputes... other than roll over and take it in the ass. I have to give Obama credit for pushing more cases than Bush did. But the WTO is a rolling joke. In the grand scheme, nothing is going to matter until we get an administration that is playing for the home team 100%.

Paul's problem would be finding enough like minded people who wouldn't pull his Free (FAIR) Trade beliefs off track.

Remember when Obama was promising to renegotiate NAFTA? That didn't last long.

Many Conservatives and even Libertarian Party members used Paul's stance on NAFTA, CAFTA and the WTO to undermine his free trade philosophy. I thought Paul summed it up best during the Congressional CAFTA debate.

"If we were interested in free trade, as the pretense is, you could initiate free trade in one small paragraph. This bill is over 1,000 pages, and it is merely a pretext for free trade. At the same time we talk about free trade, we badger China, and that is not free trade. I believe in free trade, but this is not free trade. This is regulated, managed trade for the benefit of special interests. That is why I oppose it."


It's funny how both Conservatives and Liberals love laughing at the crazy little Texans (Ross Perot and now Ron Paul) when it came to NAFTA. Remember the whole "graphs and charts" bit? Perot was SHOWING us exactly how domestic jobs would be lost and, as a country, we sat back and laughed at him for doing it.
 
Against the rights of gays? You mean because he believes gay marriage should be a State matter? The way Obama, Biden and Clinton believe it should be a state matter?

RON PAUL said:
"The definition of marriage- a union between a man and a woman- can be found in any dictionary."

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=367

He's made it clear that his religious views are against it and he has voted against every measure to make it happen and hiding behind the rhetoric of "state's rights" to stop the government from being able to pass it. If he believes that it's not in the prerogative of the government to provide it, then it's not your right to have it (see below). The only way that he can even remotely be said to not be against it is that he hasn't voted on or passed a bill to outright ban it on a federal level and he probably would if it wouldn't go against his central viewpoint of anti-federalism.



I find it weird that we now consider Federal wellfare programs "Rights" these days.
You have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's in that little document that Ron Paul claims to be so crazy about. So how are you supposed to have those things if you are disabled and/or elderly and you can't work and you can't afford your medical care and the government won't provide them to you?

Ron Paul is a hypocrite because he believes that the constitution grants you unalienable right to freedom, but he is opposed to (the federal) government in passing legislature or otherwise exercising power to grant you those rights.

And who is it that decides who has what rights and freedoms? In the Constitution is says that it's the job of the supreme court...yet Ron Paul voted against allowing them to decide you have the right to gay marriage and allowed the state to decide that you don't.

So ultimately who does Ron Paul think should be able to decide what rights and freedoms you have? It's himself, not the Constitution.
 
I almost feel the need to start negative repping you when you use that word. Seriously, back off, man. Your neocon campaign must come to an end at some point. Please make it now. please?

I feel like negative repping you when you whine and cry about ever one of HELLRAISER's posts.

However the worst is when you hijack his threads with idiotic, juvenile and insulting tags on his threads. Who in the hell do you think you are?

Don't fucking read his threads or posts if you don't like 'em.

Also: Quit being a Lurkingdick by calling him HELLDOUCHER all the time.
 
I feel like negative repping you when you whine and cry about ever one of HELLRAISER's posts.

However the worst is when you hijack his threads with idiotic, juvenile and insulting tags on his threads. Who in the hell do you think you are?

Don't fucking read his threads or posts if you don't like 'em.

Also: Quit being a Lurkingdick by calling him HELLDOUCHER all the time.

I'm sorry, what? HellDoucher? Have I used that phrase?
If you'll reference this post, you'll see I've stopped responding. Alrighty then?
 
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=367

He's made it clear that his religious views are against it and he has voted against every measure to make it happen and hiding behind the rhetoric of "state's rights" to stop the government from being able to pass it. If he believes that it's not in the prerogative of the government to provide it, then it's not your right to have it (see below). The only way that he can even remotely be said to not be against it is that he hasn't voted on or passed a bill to outright ban it on a federal level and he probably would if it wouldn't go against his central viewpoint of anti-federalism.




You have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's in that little document that Ron Paul claims to be so crazy about. So how are you supposed to have those things if you are disabled and/or elderly and you can't work and you can't afford your medical bills and the government won't provide them to you?

Ron Paul is a hypocrite because he believes that the constitution grants you unalienable right to freedom, but he is opposed to (the federal) government in passing legislature or otherwise exercising power to grant you those rights.

And who is it that decides who has what rights and freedoms? In the Constitution is says that it's the job of the supreme court...yet Ron Paul voted against allowing them to decide you have the right to gay marriage and allowed the state to decide that you don't.

So ultimately who does Ron Paul think should be able to decide what rights and freedoms you have? It's himself, not the Constitution.


I could give a fuck about Ron Paul's religious beliefs. He doesn't vote with a Biblical standard before him and has stated that he's against any Constitutional ban on gay marriage. So that puts him ahead of George W Bush and exactly where Obama and Biden are. Hell, it took Obama over a year to address Don't Ask Don't Tell. And we're gonna pretend that Paul stands out as some kind of anti-gay candidate?'

As far as the Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, nothing in the Paul/Libertarian platform hinders that. Ron Paul's against a draft and the death penalty and against the suspension of freedom due to consumption of outlawed drugs. Sounds like life and liberty to me.

You're guaranteed the right to the pursuit of happiness, you're not guaranteed the right to happiness. I suppose it's the governments job to provide jobs to the unemployed? And how about hot girlfriends? Having a hot girlfriend makes most men happy, so maybe uncle Sam should give all broke, ugly guys a Lexus and a stack of cash?

Anyway, despite that huge leap that the Constitution is there to guide your pursuit, Paul isn't advocating cutting Social Security for the elderly and disabled anyway: http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Ron_Paul_Social_Security.htm

He's just some crazy old man who believes we shouldn't be dependent on the government and should spend money that we don't have.
 
Ron Paul is NOT against "gay marriage," he just doesn't think it's the US Federal Government's job to legislate whether it's right or wrong... an opinion that the 10th Article of the US Constitution supports, and so do I. The reason we HAVE more than one state is so that different states can work within Constitutional boundaries to run their state as their people see fit... and again, I agree!
 
Ron Paul is NOT against "gay marriage," he just doesn't think it's the US Federal Government's job to legislate whether it's right or wrong... an opinion that the 10th Article of the US Constitution supports, and so do I. The reason we HAVE more than one state is so that different states can work within Constitutional boundaries to run their state as their people see fit... and again, I agree!

I think some, not necessarily Calpoon, would like to see this become the United State of America.
 
I find it weird that we now consider Federal wellfare programs "Rights" these days.


You have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's in that little document that Ron Paul claims to be so crazy about. So how are you supposed to have those things if you are disabled and/or elderly and you can't work and you can't afford your medical care and the government won't provide them to you?

You know, not for nothing, I try to stay out of these discussions, but I love me some Ron Paul and this exchange right here made my head explode.

If you are disabled or elderly and can't work and can't afford your medical care and the government won't provide it for you, how exactly does it FUNDAMENTALLY and PHILOSOPHICALLY take away your right to a) life, b) liberty, and c) pursuit of happiness?

Your right to life is the essential right to live, particularly that a human being has the right not to be killed by another human being. Not exactly taking away from this are we? Next..

Liberty is a concept of political philosophy and identifies the condition in which an individual has the right to act according to his or her own will. You still have this right as well if you are disabled/elderly/without health care/gov't not giving you a free hand out. Next!

Here's a nice legal definition for pursuit of happiness: An inalienable right enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, in addition to life and liberty; the right to pursue any legal activity as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. Hmmmm.. how exactly is this being effected again?




"So how are you supposed to have those things if you are disabled and/or elderly and you can't work and you can't afford your medical care and the government won't provide them to you?"

You're born with them and you will die with them.

The fact that most of Americans don't even know what these three natural rights actually mean (changed to Pursuit of Happiness by Thomas Jefferson instead of right to Property by John Locke {see: labor mixing}) is a real kick in the ass.

Whatever happened to self-reliance? :dunno:
 
I think some, not necessarily Calpoon, would like to see this become the United State of America.

I believe in a country that grants the same rights to all of it's citizens and that state or federal legislatures don't have the authority to deny that. As long as marriage license is issued by a court of law and tied into tax status then I don't see how it is constitutionally justified to not allow equal access.

So where is Ron Paul's motivation in not supporting that and for making the comments that he has if not his religion?

As far as comparing him to Obie and Joe, you're right he is the same. And that is precisely my problem. I want the real "Revolution", not just another Republican.
 
I believe in a country that grants the same rights to all of it's citizens and that state or federal legislatures don't have the authority to deny that. As long as marriage license is issued by a court of law and tied into tax status then I don't see how it is constitutionally justified to not allow equal access.

So where is Ron Paul's motivation in not supporting that and for making the comments that he has if not his religion?

As far as comparing him to Obie and Joe, you're right he is the same. And that is precisely my problem. I want the real "Revolution", not just another Republican.

I don't disagree with that. The question then becomes where do you draw the line. Again, same sex marital arrangements aren't the only types of arrangements banned or not defined as marriages.
 
If you are disabled or elderly and can't work and can't afford your medical care and the government won't provide it for you, how exactly does it FUNDAMENTALLY and PHILOSOPHICALLY take away your right to a) life, b) liberty, and c) pursuit of happiness?

I'd assume that the constitution provides you with life in the philosophical sense and not in the strict biological definition of being alive, since the government does not have the power to grant immortality... but OK, let's suppose that one.

A)If you are disabled and cannot physically perform essential tasks such as feeding yourself, or you require medication to keep yourself alive and cannot afford to purchase it then without the government providing these things to you, you won't continue living.

B) If you're dead because of A) then you won't have any liberty.

C) Allright. I'll give you that one, Ron Paul is not taking away your right to pursue happiness unless your pursuit of happiness includes being able to marry your same sex partner, get an abortion, have protection against being unsafe and exploited on the job, receive medication if you can't afford to pay for it....

Again, same sex marital arrangements aren't the only types of arrangements banned or not defined as marriages.

In what other instances are people being turned down from the legal contract of marriage?
 
In what other instances are people being turned down from the legal contract of marriage?

Polygamy, siblings, pets, etc.:hatsoff:
 
Pets aren't citizens, they have no rights (just like fetuses :tongue: .)

Not sure about marrying family members, as that may be in violation of incest laws.

However it's legal to cohabitate and to fuck a member of the same sex, so why should it be illegal to marry them?

Same thing goes with polygamy. It's legal to cohabitate and to fuck multiple partners... you may not approve, but I don't see a legitimate reason to deny it on legal grounds.

The thing is that marriage is, as I've been hammering in, a civil contract administered by a court that deals with issues such as taxation, property, custody, inheritance, privacy... so what on earth does that have to do with whether you are gay or straight, and what is the basis for saying that it does?

None other than religious.

Where the fuck is the separation of church and state?

Ron Paul says that it's not, he says that one state doesn't recognize another driver's license so why should they recognize a marriage license? Makes sense... but let me ask you this Ron, what states deny driver's licenses to people on the basis of their sexual orientation? If there is no difference and it's not about religion, why have one and not the other?

As I've argued many times if you want marriage to just be between a man and a woman and just a spiritual (aka. religious) commitment, then it should be entirely separate from any document issued by the government and any document issued by the government should apply to all citizens and not have any religious bias. Only a religious nut would want it otherwise, not any real Constitutionalist (remember a little thing called the first amendment?).
 
Pets aren't citizens, they have no rights (just like fetuses :tongue: .)

Not sure about marrying family members, as that may be in violation of incest laws.

However it's legal to cohabitate and to fuck a member of the same sex, so why should it be illegal to marry them?

Same thing goes with polygamy. It's legal to cohabitate and to fuck multiple partners... you may not approve, but I don't see a legitimate reason to deny it on legal grounds.

The thing is that marriage is, as I've been hammering in, a civil contract administered by a court that deals with issues such as taxation, property, custody, inheritance, privacy... so what on earth does that have to do with whether you are gay or straight, and what is the basis for saying that it does?

None other than religious.

Where the fuck is the separation of church and state?

Ron Paul says that it's not, he says that one state doesn't recognize another driver's license so why should they recognize a marriage license? Makes sense... but let me ask you this Ron, what states deny driver's licenses to people on the basis of their sexual orientation? If there is no difference and it's not about religion, why have one and not the other?

As I've argued many times if you want marriage to just be between a man and a woman and just a spiritual (aka. religious) commitment, then it should be entirely separate from any document issued by the government and any document issued by the government should apply to all citizens and not have any religious bias. Only a religious nut would want it otherwise, not any real Constitutionalist (remember a little thing called the first amendment?).

Well pets do have rights...amazingly enough...and you are pretty mum on the incest angle.

Point is, same sex arrangements aren't the only arrangements that are not licensed. So there is no assault on same sex arrangements per se...the issue is marriage is...between 1 man and 1 woman.

If that is to be changed, it shouldn't be changed to include same sex arrangements...it should be changed to exclude no arrangement.
 
fair enough. But I still think that Ron Paul is inconsistent in his views and he follows the business-as-usual in Washington a lot more than his fans care to admit.
 
There are two things about libertarians that I find sad and amusing. (Actually, to be honest, there's a lot more than just two, but I won't list them at the moment. They are a pretty hilarious group of people.) One is that they have this almost borderline irrational fear of the power of the government, especially the federal government, where they don't trust it (not that I necessarily blame them) and want to fight it keep it from becoming something tyrannical. That’s an admirable goal. The ironic part is that while they feel that strongly that way they for some strange reason have absolutely no problems with corporations, and the wealthy pretty much doing the same thing only worse in the governments stead and in fact go out of there way to foster circumstances where that can happen. They have no problem of a ruling class of elite subjecting everybody. They must not the way they act. They don't like government, yet from their actions must see business and the wealthy as all ethical, moral, entities that have all our best interest at heart. Either that or they must absolutely blindly follow free market capitalism and think it can magically fix everything no matter how obvious it flaws are to the point they just don't allow themselves to even consider anything else.

The second one is how big of hypocrites most of them are. Maybe it's just the fact I've tried to be a keen observer of human nature all my life, but one thing I have noticed is that with VERY few exceptions I've never seen a person happy when some form of government cuts effect them, and very rarely do they agree with it unless it's felt at best only marginally at all by them. Even with hardcore libertarians or republicans I've never seen somebody have to drive down a poorly maintained road while there car is getting tore up and say, "Wow, isn't it nice the government didn't fix this. I'm so glad some people somewhere have a little bit of extra money for that. Maybe in a couple years a tiny fraction of that will somehow make it's way to me so I can fix my car, even though it probably won't. Or maybe we should have private roads where it will cost everybody even more to fix them because they operate off a profit." I've never seen them do anything but complain where the local education system delivers substandard schooling for their children. I've never seen any of them praise it when they can't go to the DMV or the courthouse, the one day of the week they have off because the state had to resort to furloughs to save money. I've never seen them glad when the local police and fire departments don't arrive as quickly as needed because they have a lack of resources. I've never heard of any of them being happy when the mail arrives only a mere one day late. I've never heard them say how glad they were when some tainted meat gets into the food supply because of the lack of inspectors. The list goes on and on. What's funny is that I have heard a lot of them bitch incessantly when those things happen to them, like the government isn't doing it's job that it deserves of them. I don't think they even realize the irony of how they are acting.

From my observation of people my in my life, whether they have a libertarian bent or not is that I've noticed that when people say they want less government or and to spend less money what they really mean, what they really really mean, is that they want the government to spend less and reduce itself AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T EFFECT THEM. They want the government to take something away from somebody else or disenfranchise other people so they don't have to suffer. That's what they really want. Nobody just wants to reduce government. The very few that do are almost all so well of they are the very few that won't have to worry about the serious ramifications of fit. A lot of it just strokes a vastly overblown sense of property rights libertarians seem to have and is another rationalization for selfishness they need to tell themselves.

When has the government ever significantly reduced itself in recent history no matter who was in power? Anybody that thinks anybody is going to do that when they say so or thinks it's even ever going to be practical in the modern world even if people wanted to is just being naive and is going to be played like a fool for the people promising that. For many reasons, short of us getting heartless to the point we just let people die in the street, or have masses of people go under due to poverty, that ship set sail a long time ago. (Then again this is the USA, we might very well get to that point the way are society is going.) Reality doesn’t work that way, and it’s even more sad when it espoused with a group of people that supposedly seem to prize intellectualism (Then again I find pseudo-intellectualism to be the biggest trait of libertarians. I almost think it has to be some sort of secret requirement in order to be among them.) The only difference with politics in this situation is that at least democrats unlike others, if nothing else, are honest with themselves about it.
 
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