Post-Pandemic Economy

[mongo18]

taking out debt is a choice.

The point I've been trying to make and you're still missing is that for a lot of people it wasn't really a choice at all. They'd been told since birth that a university education would bring untold riches, and who cares what debt you accrue along the way, because you'll be rolling in money afterward. 18 year old kids are getting into these deals without knowing any better. There are protections against predatory lending, but none against universities selling bullshit degrees that set you up with a lifetime of debt.

And the whole "it's so unfair to those who paid" thing reeks of republican pussy hurt, and can conveniently be addressed with another republican platitude - life isn't fair.

Make university free and continued enrolment dependent on academic performance. But we couldn't do that, because then some poor inner city kid could outperform an executives little prince, and how would the upper class hold down the inferior class then?

Congress gives trillions to corporations that hand it to their executives in bonuses and none of you bat an eye, but someone suggests using public money to help the public and it's the end of the fucking world.

 

[tvstrip]

Make education more affordable before you wipe out debt. I recently put two students through college via cash and am halfway through with a third student. Erasing debt would be penalizing cash-paying students/parents. If there was a chance at forgiveness, it would have been better to take out loans, pay some nominal interest rate and wait for the magic wand.

It certainly doesn't seem fair to those like yourself who made the fiscally responsible choice not to go into debt.

Plus, debt forgiveness isn't a sustainable solution unless they plan on providing universal post-secondary education in the future (the way US colleges are run, that's not going to happen). IMO instead of wiping out the debt, something like extending the interest free period for student loans would be something that would benefit past students, as well as something that could be offered to future students as well. It would also not make those who did pay off their loans (or not go into debt in the first place) not feel like their choice is being held against them.

 

[Luxman]

Make all student loans interest free, and monthly payments a reasonable percentage of their income.
Students in most other countries pay a fraction or almost nothing for university.
The only reason education costs so much in America is because of greed.

 

[gmase]

Make all student loans interest free, and monthly payments a reasonable percentage of their income.
Students in most other countries pay a fraction or almost nothing for university.
The only reason education costs so much in America is because of greed.

The first two points are reasonable.

Your third point is spot-on.

This article is behind a paywall, but the headline sums it up:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/over-60-and-crushed-by-student-loan-debt-11549083631

Greed from student loans: The introduction of student debt into the process created much of this inflation. When the payments can be delayed, the sticker price can be increased without immediate pain or recognition.

Greed from over-promising: Selling degrees and loans to underqualified students. Or selling programs which will have a difficult time repaying the investment.

 

[gmase]

The point I've been trying to make and you're still missing is that for a lot of people it wasn't really a choice at all. They'd been told since birth that a university education would bring untold riches, and who cares what debt you accrue along the way, because you'll be rolling in money afterward. 18 year old kids are getting into these deals without knowing any better. There are protections against predatory lending, but none against universities selling bullshit degrees that set you up with a lifetime of debt.

And the whole "it's so unfair to those who paid" thing reeks of republican pussy hurt, and can conveniently be addressed with another republican platitude - life isn't fair.

Make university free and continued enrolment dependent on academic performance. But we couldn't do that, because then some poor inner city kid could outperform an executives little prince, and how would the upper class hold down the inferior class then?

Congress gives trillions to corporations that hand it to their executives in bonuses and none of you bat an eye, but someone suggests using public money to help the public and it's the end of the fucking world.

Talk about missing the point. You're not even in the ballpark. No one is crying other than you.

Using public money to help colleges: Right on. My three attend(ed) public universities which are funded by the state. I would support higher taxes to make it less expensive and I routinely vote for increased school funding. No one is disagreeing with the public benefit of education - or using public funds for it. The argument is about passing ex post facto relief on incurred debt.

Continued enrollment is currently dependent on academic performance. In fact, many scholarships require a minimum GPA. Imagine the grade inflation pressure teachers/professors would get if a wholesale monetary incentive was introduced? You probably saw a few scandals concerning college football and basketball programs during your tenure in the states.

I bat plenty of eyes over Corporate welfare. Why any corporations get any preferential treatment is beyond me.

Your first paragraph is Exhibit A for ... ummm .. what's the word ... parenting. Ah yes. My wife attests to signing debt documents to go through school and then having to pay it off over 10 years. Guess what we learned and did not pass on.

I'm really pussy hurt over all of the financial aid not offered to me. 😄 (No, I'm not really.) The inner-city kids you reference have a right to succeed and should be helped. They are assisted through Pell Grants, scholarships, and other programs. The people I focus on more are the privileged who take advantage of the system. I could have put my kids in debt (refer back to the lack of financial aid), but chose not to do it. Others around me have put their kids in debt. How do you feel about forgiving their debt? Probably the same as me.

You are confusing the issue (debt v taxes) which is why you think I'm missing your point. Using public money for a public good is NOT the end of the world.

 

[mongo18]

Talk about missing the point. You're not even in the ballpark. No one is crying other than you.

I know you are, but what am I?

You've now derailed the conversation to the point that you're just spouting nonsensical bullshit.

 

[gmase]

I know you are, but what am I?

You've now derailed the conversation to the point that you're just spouting nonsensical bullshit.

Talk about nonsense. You sound like our friend 🐬. 🤔

"I know you are, but what am I?"
Are you 12?

 

[mongo18]

Ok, I'm ignoring gmase from here on out because I don't have enough crayons to explain to him what's going on.

Observation - all I've heard on this topic is how unfair it is, and how many feelings will get hurt, but nobody has attempted to argue that it's a bad idea economically.

Is that why America has become such a lamentable shithole? Because nobody is willing to do what's good for the country if there's a chance it will chafe your vagina?

 

[Luxman]

This is all my fault because of that article I posted.

 

[gmase]

This is all my fault because of that article I posted.

It was a good article. It's a difficult subject and not easily digested in a comments section.

Ok, I'm ignoring gmase from here on out because I don't have enough crayons to explain to him what's going on.

Very funny.

You're correct, you do not have enough crayons. How many would it take to write a 500-page book?

 

[gmase]

Not quite the most wonderful place on earth:
https://thehill.com/policy/finance/...00-workers-as-coronavirus-batters-theme-parks

 

[mongo18]

This is all my fault because of that article I posted.

Don't stress mate. Nobody has made an enemy out of me here. There's only one type of person I won't find common ground with, and they all seem to have inexplicably disappeared from the board of late.

 

[gmase]

This article addresses the student debt issue well too:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/student-debt-forgiveness-underlying-problem-130612056.html

“Everyone acknowledges that if we don't change the underlying system that produced that debt in the first place, whatever debt we forgive, the total amount will just start to rise again.” The fundamental issue, according to Carey, is a system where “the federal government printing money and lending it out based on what colleges choose to charge.” In other words, the real problem is that the average cost of total tuition, fees, room and board rates charged for full-time undergraduate students in degree-granting institutions in the U.S. has increased more than two times the general U.S. inflation rate.​

A chart in the article above highlights a problem I have with 'for-profit' college (note the rising tuition costs) ...

Further: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/28/us/politics/betsy-devos-for-profit-colleges.html

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on Friday officially repealed an Obama-era regulation that sought to crack down on for-profit colleges and universities that produced graduates with no meaningful job prospects and mountains of student debt they could not hope to repay.​

​

​

 

[mongo18]

“Everyone acknowledges that if we don't change the underlying system that produced that debt in the first place, whatever debt we forgive, the total amount will just start to rise again.”

Well I agree 100% with that. It would be retarded in the extreme to forgive everyone's debt and do nothing about the costs moving forward.

I think every first world country can afford to provide university education, just like health care, and if they can't then either their priorities are wack, or they're just not a first world country.

Edit - just in case anyone was thinking about lobbing an "Australia doesn't provide free university" at me, I never claimed that our priorities are perfect!

 

[gmase]

More on the student loan debt: https://thehill.com/policy/finance/...-debt-underscores-possible-biden-policy-shift

 

[Luxman]

First time I agree with FoxNews.
The problem is universities overcharging students.
University tuition should be a fraction of what it currently costs.

Student loan debt forgiveness would ‘make a mockery’ of those who paid: Steve Forbes

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

" No one is disagreeing with the public benefit of education - or using public funds for it."gmase

Does you local paper have a public comments page? Ours does and you cannot go a month(hell sometimes a week) without some clown calling in and bitching about the cost of education, the need for education, and my favorite" I paid for my kids to get an education, why do I have to pay for someone else kids?" The last is too stupid to acknowledge.

 

[gmase]

" No one is disagreeing with the public benefit of education - or using public funds for it."gmase

Does you local paper have a public comments page? Ours does and you cannot go a month(hell sometimes a week) without some clown calling in and bitching about the cost of education, the need for education, and my favorite" I paid for my kids to get an education, why do I have to pay for someone else kids?" The last is too stupid to acknowledge.

My statement should be read in respect to this discussion. No one discussing the subject here and now is suggesting non-public funding of education.

Yes, the no-taxes-for-education faction is influential in my county's school district. They dominated it for about 8 years, but guess what happened? Teachers fled the district when pay froze, parents started to pay higher fees for previously free services/programs, vocation programs were cut, and so on and so forth. That went over like a lead balloon and the board got voted out - decisively.

Taxes - no one likes them until the supported programs are eliminated.

 

[Theopolis Q. Hossenffer]

I am not trying to be logical and see outcomes here. I am merely stating what I see in the public opinion columns. And those folks don't want to pay for someone else's kids education. When their kids graduated they thought they were done with it. Don't have the foresight to see that who is going to run the world when they retire.

"My statement should be read in respect to this discussion. No one discussing the subject here and now is suggesting non-public funding of education." gmase
I apologize for falling out of the box.

 

[gmase]

I am not trying to be logical and see outcomes here. I am merely stating what I see in the public opinion columns. And those folks don't want to pay for someone else's kids education. When their kids graduated they thought they were done with it. Don't have the foresight to see that who is going to run the world when they retire.

"My statement should be read in respect to this discussion. No one discussing the subject here and now is suggesting non-public funding of education." gmase
I apologize for falling out of the box.

Ha. No apology needed. Those are the people who think they got to where they are by themselves with no help from anyone else. Most taxes are regressive, yet the loudest complainers about taxes are the more affluent.