North American Indians Justified?

[meesterperfect]

Wondering your thoughts.
From the time English began colonizing North America in the 1600's until the late 1800's there were many battles big and small between the red man and the white man.
Sometimes indians slaughtered innocent whites as they traveled west, sometimes armies slaughtered iinnocent ndians.
Some Indians were peaceful, some were savage kllers.

My question is were the Indians justified in fighting for their land? Could/Should they have done more to protect it and drive out the white man?
Or should they just have accepted it?

 

[PlasmaTwa2]

They had every right to defend their land. The white man was coming in, taking all the resouces, and pushing them aside.

Look up the Beothuks next time you have a chance. It is an interesting read about how their conflict with the Europeans caused their society to end.

 

[titsrock]

In most cases, it was "the white man" that couldn't share land/resources with the Native Indian.

Christopher Columbus used mathematics and religion to "trick" the indians into providing food and shelter to him and his sailors. Same with the Jamestown settlers in the 1600s.

The 1800s were nothing but a series of broken treaties and promises by Whitey...

What could the Indians do? Whitey wiped them out with diseases (small pox) and firearms. The Aztecs' bows and spears did nothing against Cortez's armored legions.

Are you suggesting the Indians just laid down for the colonizing armies?

 

[BlueBalls]

My question is were the Indians justified in fighting for their land?

It is or was their land as you say so they have every right to defend it, just like Americans have every right to defend what is their land now against other foreign invaders, if there ever were any.

Could/Should they have done more to protect it and drive out the white man?

I doubt it, the "white man" as you call them were far more technically advanced.

Or should they just have accepted it?

No they shouldnt have, it is their land, I'll use the example I gave above. If a foreign army invaded the US now, would you except it?

 

[ThatRedWing]

Pontiac, Tecumsah, Red Cloud and others had the right idea of trying to form united fronts against advancement. The problem was that too many people started to rely on white barter items. Also you had the press telling wild stories about these savages that where almost totally made up. Most tribes had to adapt their style of warfare from an honerable show of bravery to the white man's style of body count warfare. The battle of Greasy Grass was called a massacre. The press said that Custer had to fight more indians than could have possibley been sustained in the area where the battle took place.

 

[calpoon]

Most of the north-eastern Indians were agrarian people that were totally peaceful. In the beginning there were few conflicts between them and the settlers. Everyone knows the story of the first "thanksgiving" and the Indians were willing to "give" land and food to the settlers who were not equipped to even survive (most of them died in the winter) let alone make a large land-grab.

Like I said they were mostly peaceful and they were technological inferior, especially in warfare. Many of them surrendered to colonists because they believed in the promises of fair treatment that were made and that they could not win the fight. There were other groups that did band together and fight, and they achieved some success, but in the words of Thomas Jefferson, "In war, they may kill some of us. We will destroy all of them."

the plains Indians were a hunter-gatherer society and they were more warlike. They fought the most and put up the biggest defense against westward expansion. But even for them warfare was more about proving courage and outsmarting your enemy than about trying to slaughter them and wreak as much destruction upon them as possible, like in the European view which was based on a history of centuries of violent land conflicts that just did not exist in the Americas. For instance, trying to wipe out your enemies food supply or their homes was not a tactic that the indians practiced. Really the only indians that were as successful at being as ruthless as the Americans were later rebels like Geronimo, who had lived most of their lives already as a conquered people.

 

[ChefChiTown]

My question is were the Indians justified in fighting for their land? Could/Should they have done more to protect it and drive out the white man?
Or should they just have accepted it?

Everybody has fought for their land at one point or another. They were justified in defending themselves and trying to keep their land their own. Unfortunately, they were fighting a losing battle, but they still had the right to fight in that situation.

 

[HumpbopOH]

lol I don't give a damn...seriously...I am inundated with media and technology as it is always thrusting the smallest issue to the new big shocker headline in my face demanding my instant attention. I turn on the TV and see reams of specials and documentarys doing everything to death constantly like the whole world chains up anything it can find and drags it through the mud for 72 hours.

When I come to Freeones...I don't give a damn about the Indians, or the white man, the black man, the yellow man, or honey bees, bombs, wars, 911 or anything else!!!

I come here for silicone, long legs and pouty lips...I come here to make my own 'small issue' into a 'big shocker' as best I can! LOL

I don't care if Freeones is your venue for discussing mighty issues or deep philisophical genres...I'm stating my opinion of these stupid posts right now...so if you are as versatile in your intellect as you think...save the flames.

I COME HERE FOR PORN! The world and all its bullshit can wait for me for a change until I am done...you think I could be spared crap like this for just 5 minutes...yep, just 5 minutes...literally. HA!

 

[Will E Worm]

Sometimes indians slaughtered innocent whites as they traveled west,

"Innocent?"

My question is were the Indians justified in fighting for their land? Could/Should they have done more to protect it and drive out the white man?
Or should they just have accepted it?

Yes, they were justified. Why does this question have to be brought up?

Would you just accept it if another country came to America and tried to kill or enslave you?

Your question is answered. :hatsoff:

 

[Will E Worm]

Milton is that you?

I don't care if Freeones is your venue for discussing mighty issues or deep philisophical genres...I'm stating my opinion of these stupid posts right now...so if you are as versatile in your intellect as you think...save the flames.

Obviously someone doesn't. :tongue:

If you are on Freeones just for porn then why are you even in the talk section?

I COME HERE FOR PORN! The world and all its bullshit can wait for me for a change until I am done...you think I could be spared crap like this for just 5 minutes...yep, just 5 minutes...literally. HA!

You could just not click on the thread. :hatsoff:

 

[tartanterrier]

The Red man did the right thing although it proved very costly.I suppose the
same thing happened to us Scots as well for saying no to the UK all those
centuries ago.I guess that's what some people call progress

 

[Shindekudasai]

lol I don't give a damn...seriously...I am inundated with media and technology as it is always thrusting the smallest issue to the new big shocker headline in my face demanding my instant attention. I turn on the TV and see reams of specials and documentarys doing everything to death constantly like the whole world chains up anything it can find and drags it through the mud for 72 hours.

When I come to Freeones...I don't give a damn about the Indians, or the white man, the black man, the yellow man, or honey bees, bombs, wars, 911 or anything else!!!

I come here for silicone, long legs and pouty lips...I come here to make my own 'small issue' into a 'big shocker' as best I can! LOL

I don't care if Freeones is your venue for discussing mighty issues or deep philisophical genres...I'm stating my opinion of these stupid posts right now...so if you are as versatile in your intellect as you think...save the flames.

I COME HERE FOR PORN! The world and all its bullshit can wait for me for a change until I am done...you think I could be spared crap like this for just 5 minutes...yep, just 5 minutes...literally. HA!

I don't give a shit whether your brain hurts or not, because the world's too much for you. Why don't you spare us your crap then and troll around in the painfree area? I just wasted two minutes on your posting that I'll never get back. As long as you don't develop the ability to refund me my time, don't waste it.

As far as the topic goes:
I'd agree with almost everything, that was said so far. I've poked around alot in the history of the American West over the last two years (since I specialized in modern Japanese and US history). I'm a bit surprised as to how many here have a "well-founded" opinion about this.:thumbsup:

 

[Friday on my mind]

Wondering your thoughts.
From the time English began colonizing North America in the 1600's until the late 1800's there were many battles big and small between the red man and the white man.
Sometimes indians slaughtered innocent whites as they traveled west, sometimes armies slaughtered iinnocent ndians.
Some Indians were peaceful, some were savage kllers.

My question is were the Indians justified in fighting for their land? Could/Should they have done more to protect it and drive out the white man?
Or should they just have accepted it?

I have some indian blood in me even some from a tribe native to NJ Mr P known as the Leni-lanape.As calpoon said most indians were fairly peacefull agrarian people.Indians did not forsee how many europeans there was and would be coming over and that their ever could be to many people coming to disrupt their way of live.They also did not understand the european concept of ownership of land.Even the indians that supoosedly sold manhattan island were not really even permamnent residents of that area as an example.It was just a totally different culture and mindset.Indians only fought back really late in the game when it was apparent whites were never going to be satisfied with leaving them anything significant.Indians were basically wiped out by the white europeans by disease but also systematic planning.Things like wiping out the buffalo herds were part of the genocide plan and Phil Sheridan the general in charge of the indian territories did once say "the only good indian is a dead one".Hitler is said to have read about how the americans handled their "indian" problem when contemplating how to rid europe of the jews.Both were cases of mass genocide.Don't get me wrong I understand the europeans view that the indians were savages who were inhibiting progress and developement of the country and acted in a way they thought fitting.What happened was terrible but probably inevitable,the indians never had a chance.

 

[D-rock]

While I don't buy all the stuff about Native Americans always being peaceful, (They had many wars among themselves through the millennia for control of land), or how people like to claim that they didn't think land could be owned (In a practical manner they did, the reason for most of the wars above. The non-ownership of the land philosophy aspect has always been exaggerated), they pretty much got a very raw deal from us and got screwed over. Some of the things our country did to them was completely inexcusable. I can't really blame them for defending themselves. To also give them a lot of credit they have adapted well and are a lot more peaceful than a lot of other groups around the world that feel they have been wronged from things in their past. I don't hear of Native American suicide bombers going off all over the place, car bombings done by them, or them building up a underground movement or engaging in guerilla warfare. Most of them identify themselves as American and are pretty much no different than anybody else now. It's sad that so many of them still live in poverty though.

 

[Member2019]

This is a gross simplification ...

Sometimes indians slaughtered innocent whites as they traveled west, sometimes armies slaughtered iinnocent ndians. Some Indians were peaceful, some were savage kllers.

This is gross simplification. Here are the three, simple realities ...

1. Several Native American tribes were war-like against other tribes. They did not change with the arrival of Europeans, well before the foundation of the American nation.

2. After the foundation of the American nation, the countless Native American tribes that were friendly were driven from their homes, and still friendly after that, only to be driven even farther. First it was west, then it was west of the Mississippi, then even west of that. At some point, some Native American tribes started to band together to make a stand. This was already well, well after the "Trail of Tears" of the Jackson administration, among other incidents and even atrocities.

3. Eventually the US government and military employed a systematic "final solution" against the Native Americans to force them to assimilate. Probably the best was the near-extermination of the Buffalo, the key component to many aspects of the Native American way of life. And after that, the assimilation was far from smooth, which is what many textbooks have covered poorly.

It's not about "justified" or "fair" or anything else. The foundation of the American nation and the resulting attitudes, policies and actions had mainly one, final goal in mind, the assimilation of the Native Americans into the United States. It might have been relocating them only at first, but it just goes to show that no understanding means no understanding of a way of life, until it's too late.

Luckily we've retained some of the heritage, and gone to lengths to recover as much as what was lost, at least by the early 20th century, although we've still lost a lot that will never be recovered. And the latter in itself has made us less of a nation as a whole. The "Wind Talkers" of the Pacific Theater are just one great example.

 

[Torre82]

If a foreign army invaded the US now, would you except it?

Gladly. I sell to the highest paying job. Someone wants to invade? In the context of the situation.. I'd be all-too-willing. Depending on...
Are they another tolerant society like our own simply looking to expand their empire and wipe out an enemy?
Are they sympathetic to my race/religion/skin color?
Are they obviously using me or do I have no choice? And thusly... where the fuck would I run to if they can invade the U.S., then they can invade ANYWHERE. "I'd rather reign in hell, than serve in heaven"
Do they actually stand a chance? Do we? Who pays more? Do I get my own Mata Hari hottie guaranteed by the government?
So if I'm going to be employed gratefully with no to little chance of being discarded holocaust style after the invasion..
I'll go traitor-for-pay in a second.

on-topic: They're fine to defend what is theirs. Since when did a nation know when it has already been beaten? To the bitter end.

 

[Gordar]

lol I don't give a damn...seriously...I am inundated with media and technology as it is always thrusting the smallest issue to the new big shocker headline in my face demanding my instant attention. I turn on the TV and see reams of specials and documentarys doing everything to death constantly like the whole world chains up anything it can find and drags it through the mud for 72 hours.

When I come to Freeones...I don't give a damn about the Indians, or the white man, the black man, the yellow man, or honey bees, bombs, wars, 911 or anything else!!!

I come here for silicone, long legs and pouty lips...I come here to make my own 'small issue' into a 'big shocker' as best I can! LOL

I don't care if Freeones is your venue for discussing mighty issues or deep philisophical genres...I'm stating my opinion of these stupid posts right now...so if you are as versatile in your intellect as you think...save the flames.

I COME HERE FOR PORN! The world and all its bullshit can wait for me for a change until I am done...you think I could be spared crap like this for just 5 minutes...yep, just 5 minutes...literally. HA!

I'm not going to flame you, or at least I'm going to try not to, but I do have to say that even though you have the right to an opinion, so do others and others obviously DO want to discuss this and American politics, something I myself am not really interested in.

And if you think the world is going to wait for you, I have to say I'm afraid you'll have a terrible life, since the world doesn't wait for anyone. None of us are important enough and no human being ever will be (although some people think they are important enough).

If you want to be spared this crap, then I suggest you go to the find your favourite babe forum (right here on freeones) and spend your time there instead of in the general chat section where things like this can, and in my opinion, should be posted.


About the native Americans. I'll just say I would have liked to see what the world would have looked like if the Chinese or Japanese had discovered the continent first.

Would they have become traders or would they have become conquerors like us? & If they had become traders (& maybe/probably unwilling/unknowing teachers) would it have helped the natives advance and would they have stood a chance against the Europeans?

Sadly, we will never know....

 

[Patrick_S]

lol I don't give a damn...seriously...I am inundated with media and technology as it is always thrusting the smallest issue to the new big shocker headline in my face demanding my instant attention. I turn on the TV and see reams of specials and documentarys doing everything to death constantly like the whole world chains up anything it can find and drags it through the mud for 72 hours.

When I come to Freeones...I don't give a damn about the Indians, or the white man, the black man, the yellow man, or honey bees, bombs, wars, 911 or anything else!!!

I come here for silicone, long legs and pouty lips...I come here to make my own 'small issue' into a 'big shocker' as best I can! LOL

I don't care if Freeones is your venue for discussing mighty issues or deep philisophical genres...I'm stating my opinion of these stupid posts right now...so if you are as versatile in your intellect as you think...save the flames.

I COME HERE FOR PORN! The world and all its bullshit can wait for me for a change until I am done...you think I could be spared crap like this for just 5 minutes...yep, just 5 minutes...literally. HA!

I see you´re doing your best at upholding the myth that all porn fans are retards with the brain capacity of a jellyfish. If you don´t want to read any serious topics then you could just stay out of the "freeones talk" section.
And yes, of course the indians should defend what was rightfully theirs.

 

[marquis2]

The Red man did the right thing although it proved very costly.I suppose the
same thing happened to us Scots as well for saying no to the UK all those
centuries ago.I guess that's what some people call progress

It was the Scots who took over England in 1601 when James was offered the English throne.
Full union was through a Scottish petition as they were bankrupt.

Although England and Scotland had occasional flare ups on the whole relations remained quite good , there was a great deal of interdependence and a lot of movement between the two. This led to peaceful union.

 

[BlueBalls]

Gladly. I sell to the highest paying job. Someone wants to invade? In the context of the situation.. I'd be all-too-willing. Depending on...
Are they another tolerant society like our own simply looking to expand their empire and wipe out an enemy?
Are they sympathetic to my race/religion/skin color?
Are they obviously using me or do I have no choice? And thusly... where the fuck would I run to if they can invade the U.S., then they can invade ANYWHERE. "I'd rather reign in hell, than serve in heaven"
Do they actually stand a chance? Do we? Who pays more? Do I get my own Mata Hari hottie guaranteed by the government?
So if I'm going to be employed gratefully with no to little chance of being discarded holocaust style after the invasion..

You can never know, its not as if the invading force is going to give a set of demands that need to be met otherwise by by New Jersey or wherever. Surprise, pre-emptive attack thats how wars get waged nowadays, strike first before the "enemy" can strike first. You make your plans, you lie to the UN, you cover all your bases, then . . . . . BOOM!

(Lets just say, there is a nation out there more technically advanced out their in the field of defense than the US, purley hypothetical of course, but who knows whats happenin in Iran or North Korea :1orglaugh. )

Excellent use of Milton might I just add

I'll go traitor-for-pay in a second.

Yeah, me to, fuck everyone else, me me me me me me me me me me me me ME!!!!!!