Most say it's the guns. I say, it's today's society

[Mr. Daystar]

I appreciate your position, but as you might have guessed, we're not going to see eye to eye on this.

We curtail people's freedoms all the time. We don't let them drive without a license, we don't let them purchase narcotics without a prescription, etc. We don't allow some things at all, e.g., buying explosives, or human organs or slaves. And even the things we do allow without strict oversight or regulation don't include the unbridled freedom to do whatever one wishes. According to your definition of liberty, it would be okay for someone to shoot another person in the head if he trespasses on their lawn. I'm sure you wouldn't personally do that, but your operating definition doesn't prohibit it because the freedom to protect one's family is absolute and no restrictions means no one can go too far.

One other comment. You said:



Again, I appreciate where this sentiment is coming from, especially in light of the "don't blame law abiding citizens" & "self-defense is a constitutional right" arguments, but if you truly don't understand how statements like this one can lead others to lump you into a class of people you'd rather not be associated with, then let me simply remark that anyone who says that other people's lives mean "nothing" to them automatically raises some red flags. Once again, I don't think your point is lost, but at the very least, you have overstated it.

Fair enough, respect has been given on both ends, our points will likely never be the same, it is what it is.

You also have to understand, I most likely wouldn't say that about most people....their life meaning nothing I mean. I most certainly would save my wife first, but would make an effort for others...but not for someone that has no regard for my rights, for someone that clearly has no concern for the safety of the private citizen. That's why I used her for an example, and not your wife, or a innocent bystander in a store robbery.

 

[Briana Lee]

The Uk pretty much TOOK their guns away....we are citizens, they are subjects. Democracy isn't freedom. Big difference there.

Laws need to be changed, but guns aren't the problem, who, and how they are obtained is

Much as you, as an adult entertainer would not consider yourself, or appreciate being considered no more then a dirty whore, I as a gun owner would not, nor do I want to be considered a whack job because I enjoy shooting the types of weapons that everyone feels a need to ban. Just because you get naked, doesn't give anyone the right to label you, or censor you....you should not be punished for your controversial profession....all gun owners do not deserve to suffer for the actions of a mad man.

At what point did I call you or even hint that people that own guns are 'whack jobs'? You're making this too personal and being too defensive. And it certainly has nothing to do with my profession.

Ok so explain to me how taking your gun away effects your life......do you think it would make you feel less of a man or something? I'm serious, I really wanna know.

Indeed, you do become offended. And easily.

Remove emotion from this. Think rationally.

Work toward a compromise, and encourage your friends to do the same.

This is why it will never happen. No one thinks about the big picture......

 

[eponymous]

You also have to understand, I most likely wouldn't say that about most people....their life meaning nothing I mean. I most certainly would save my wife first, but would make an effort for others...but not for someone that has no regard for my rights, for someone that clearly has no concern for the safety of the private citizen. That's why I used her for an example, and not your wife, or a innocent bystander in a store robbery.

Most people? I would do everything in my power to defend any innocent life, whether they agreed with me or not. God only knows how I'd handle a true life & death situation if the need ever arose, but I'd like to think I wouldn't even take the life of a perpetrator unless I had to. I would be content with stopping them from harming others.

So you selected Michelle Obama for this example because you think it would be reasonable to let her die, just not people who agree with you? "I'm sorry, Michelle, but even though my loved ones are out of danger and I could help you, I won't be making any attempts on your behalf because despite the fact we're both Americans who love our country, you don't respect one of my most closely held personal beliefs, and I just don't care enough to save someone's life unless they're my family or believe everything I do, or possibly both."

I thought you just overstated it, but now...I'm sorry, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm starting to get pissed off that someone like you has a gun.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

At what point did I call you or even hint that people that own guns are 'whack jobs'? You're making this too personal and being too defensive. And it certainly has nothing to do with my profession.

Ok so explain to me how taking your gun away effects your life......do you think it would make you feel less of a man or something? I'm serious, I really wanna know.

You Miss the point. They want to ban certain types of guns. That is unacceptable to me, under any circumstance. The masses are freaking out, and screaming that their is "no need" for this, or "no need" for that. I obey the law, respect the rules, and conduct myself responsibly...because some do not, does not mean that I should be lumped into that category, whether it be by you, another member, the government, or an anonymous face in a crowd, any more then you would like to be treated badly because of who you are, or what you do,. The correlation is simple, you have a controversial profession, which some would judge you by, my enthusiasms, and hobbies are judged by some, and lead them to believe I have a certain mentality. Not really that hard to figure out, and you're damn right I take it personally, my freedoms are coming under serious scrutiny, and people with power and agendas are making major efforts to fuck me, and my fellow enthusiasts over....I take that very seriously, and it causes me to become extremely defensive.

Guns do not make me feel manly. They make me feel secure in my person, they bring me joy on many levels, and loosing the right to own what I wish, makes me feel less free, it makes me wonder how a nation could be so blind, and stupid, as to elect this traitorous fuck, to office. It sickens me, that people are so blind and oblivious to the real problems, that they jump on a band wagon to blame an inanimate object, and neglect to see the truth.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Most people? I would do everything in my power to defend any innocent life, whether they agreed with me or not. God only knows how I'd handle a true life & death situation if the need ever arose, but I'd like to think I wouldn't even take the life of a perpetrator unless I had to. I would be content with stopping them from harming others.

So you selected Michelle Obama for this example because you think it would be reasonable to let her die, just not people who agree with you? "I'm sorry, Michelle, but even though my loved ones are out of danger and I could help you, I won't be making any attempts on your behalf because despite the fact we're both Americans who love our country, you don't respect one of my most closely held personal beliefs, and I just don't care enough to save someone's life unless they're my family or believe everything I do, or possibly both."

I thought you just overstated it, but now...I'm sorry, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm starting to get pissed off that someone like you has a gun.

I'm supposed to give a fuck about someone that feels no remorse in plundering the Constitution, while reaping the rewards of every benefit my tax dollars can buy, including the top of the line fire power her personal security detail is carrying, but my families lives, and my life are worthy of a limit on that security?!?! I seriously think I'm the one that should be pissed. And yes, most people...believe it or not, some people just mean nothing to me, and their existence on this planet means nothing to me...and I wouldn't call michelle obama innocent. She's as big a threat to our freedoms, as her husband is. Why should I risk my life, for someone that has no regard for mine?

 

[eponymous]

I'm supposed to give a fuck about someone that feels no remorse in plundering the Constitution, while reaping the rewards of every benefit my tax dollars can buy, including the top of the line fire power her personal security detail is carrying, but my families lives, and my life are worthy of a limit on that security?!?! I seriously think I'm the one that should be pissed. And yes, most people...believe it or not, some people just mean nothing to me, and their existence on this planet means nothing to me...and I wouldn't call michelle obama innocent. She's as big a threat to our freedoms, as her husband is. Why should I risk my life, for someone that has no regard for mine?

Oh well, I tried. Add another one to the Ignore List.

And yes, <expletive here> a life is a life. I would even try to save yours.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Finally, a Hollywood celebrity speaks

 

[lurkingdirk]

Fair points. We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I have lived in countries that have very strict gun laws. They don't have the same instances of mass killings like this. Certainly, there are examples of killings in other nations, but it is irrefutable that the United States has more tragic events of this nature. Is that due to the availability of the guns? The laws permitting people to own/carry guns? I can't say, either way.

To sum up my own position, I believe that no one who is not a service person or police officer should have access to anything but guns for hunting. That eliminates automatic, semi automatic, and hand guns. And the guns they have need to be registered and licensed, and kept in a safe that is far removed from the ammo.

I realise that my opinion is vastly different than most people in this country. I have never heard a compelling reason that everyone should be allowed to carry a handgun. Not even this tragic, terrible current event. Seeing this did not make me think, "boy, I wish the teachers were carrying guns to work." No, it made me think, "boy, I wish the shooter did not have access to guns at all." It's a radically different perspective, and I'm not sure you appreciate it. I have close friends who carry guns. Through a great deal of reasoned discussion and explanation of reasoning, they have all independently agreed not to carry into my house, in order to respect my perspective on this. I did not make this demand on them, it was their decision. Would you make the same concession for a close friend?

I don't know if you missed this, or chose to ignore it. Just wanted to make sure.

 

[Sam Fisher]

I don't know if you missed this, or chose to ignore it. Just wanted to make sure.

Yes actually, I did miss it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

As for your house rules, those are certainly your right and your decision to make. And if your friends are cool with it, awesome. I personally wouldn't come into your home unarmed. Hence, you wouldn't allow me to come in armed. Fair enough.

On the flip side of that coin, there are some businesses that post a sign on the glass of the entrance door. The saying varies, but generically they say the same thing - "No firearms allowed inside". When I see that sign, I go elsewhere to shop. Does the shop owner want only those who break the law and are intent on robbing him to be his customers? Because they are going to ignore his sign and enter with their gun anyway. Then they will rob him, perhaps even shoot him. And, as per his sign, anyone that legally carries a firearm with a permit will not be in there to help defend him.

As for my friends who carry, they are more than welcome to come into my home while carrying. Just as those who don't carry, are welcome as well.

 

[lurkingdirk]

Yes actually, I did miss it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

As for your house rules, those are certainly your right and your decision to make. And if your friends are cool with it, awesome. I personally wouldn't come into your home unarmed. Hence, you wouldn't allow me to come in armed. Fair enough.

On the flip side of that coin, there are some businesses that post a sign on the glass of the entrance door. The saying varies, but generically they say the same thing - "No firearms allowed inside". When I see that sign, I go elsewhere to shop. Does the shop owner want only those who break the law and are intent on robbing him to be his customers? Because they are going to ignore his sign and enter with their gun anyway. Then they will rob him, perhaps even shoot him. And, as per his sign, anyone that legally carries a firearm with a permit will not be in there to help defend him.

As for my friends who carry, they are more than welcome to come into my home while carrying. Just as those who don't carry, are welcome as well.

It would be interesting to do a study of businesses that post signs such as you mention to see if they are more susceptible to being held up. I have no idea as to what the answer would be.

Additionally, I find it amazing that you'd not come into my house unarmed. You would rather not go to a friends house than be unarmed for a couple hours? I find that fantastical. You really can't lock your sidearm in your glovebox in your locked car and come in for dinner? Keep in mind, I don't enforce this, and I told my friends who do carry that I have no desire to infringe on their rights to carry. As I made my preferences clear to them, and as that involved a great deal of discussion on both sides, they made the decision on their own not to carry into my house. You wouldn't do that for someone you cared about? Forgive me if I sound indelicate, but that sounds a great deal more like gun mania than it does the simple right to carry.

 

[Sam Fisher]

It would be interesting to do a study of businesses that post signs such as you mention to see if they are more susceptible to being held up. I have no idea as to what the answer would be.

Additionally, I find it amazing that you'd not come into my house unarmed. You would rather not go to a friends house than be unarmed for a couple hours? I find that fantastical. You really can't lock your sidearm in your glovebox in your locked car and come in for dinner? Keep in mind, I don't enforce this, and I told my friends who do carry that I have no desire to infringe on their rights to carry. As I made my preferences clear to them, and as that involved a great deal of discussion on both sides, they made the decision on their own not to carry into my house. You wouldn't do that for someone you cared about? Forgive me if I sound indelicate, but that sounds a great deal more like gun mania than it does the simple right to carry.

Actually, it would all depend on who else was going to be in your home besides you and me. And, if you live in Hell's Kitchen, or Watts, then most likely I won't even come over. I suppose if we actually met and got to know one another, sure... I'd leave my gun in my car and come into your house. I've done the same with others that I know.

 

[lurkingdirk]

Actually, it would all depend on who else was going to be in your home besides you and me. And, if you live in Hell's Kitchen, or Watts, then most likely I won't even come over. I suppose if we actually met and got to know one another, sure... I'd leave my gun in my car and come into your house. I've done the same with others that I know.

Perhaps that's a consideration for my friends who carry. I live in a very safe place. I have a lot of people through my house, and have never had an issue with a single one. It's good to know that your relationship with people can trump the right to carry. Good for you.

 

[(TLF) CHAMPION5]

The Truth

 

[eponymous]

The Truth

Rape is illegal. Murder is illegal. Stealing is illegal. Arson is illegal. Identity theft is illegal. Cyber crimes are illegal. Inside trading is illegal. Child abuse is illegal. Racketeering is illegal. Money laundering is illegal. Kidnapping is illegal. Extortion is illegal. Poisoning is illegal. Human trafficking is illegal. Detonating explosives is illegal.

Should we make these things legal (i.e., stop regulating them) just because we can never eliminate them entirely? How much would these crimes increase if we did?

Regulating guns wouldn't be the end of guns, and it certainly wouldn't be the end of freedom.

But you know what, I'd be willing to give up on all forms of gun legislation and even endorse conceal/carry laws if the right would make two concessions to the left:

1. Everyone who purchases a gun should be required attend and graduate from an accredited college or university, and
2. Anyone who donates money to a religious organization must also donate an identical sum to fund public schools.

 

[Deepcover]

Unfortunately I dont think a damn thing is going to change even after this massacre. This is going to keep happening and every time we're going to have the same discussion and nothing is going to change. I'm for gun control but people misconstrue what that actually means. I'm not for a total ban on guns, though I do think we should reinstate the assault weapons ban, and this is isn't even a matter of 2nd amendment. All I want to do is make it harder for wackos to have guns, how can anyone disagree with this? Those of us who do support gun control need to be more concrete as to what we mean when we say we support gun control and not demonize those responsible gun owners.

You're so right about this and what's worst is how the news and media stations turned the whole massacre into a frenzy. The next person (years from now) is going to want to beat the record of the most mass shootings ever and get their 15min of fame unless they take their own life...Nothing is going to change after the whole massacre incident and yet, news stations today crave murder stories like you would never believe. Shocking.

 

[(TLF) CHAMPION5]

Rape is illegal. Murder is illegal. Stealing is illegal. Arson is illegal. Identity theft is illegal. Cyber crimes are illegal. Inside trading is illegal. Child abuse is illegal. Racketeering is illegal. Money laundering is illegal. Kidnapping is illegal. Extortion is illegal. Poisoning is illegal. Human trafficking is illegal. Detonating explosives is illegal.

Should we make these things legal (i.e., stop regulating them) just because we can never eliminate them entirely? How much would these crimes increase if we did?

Regulating guns wouldn't be the end of guns, and it certainly wouldn't be the end of freedom.



But you know what, I'd be willing to give up on all forms of gun legislation and even endorse conceal/carry laws if the right would make two concessions to the left:

1. Everyone who purchases a gun should be required attend and graduate from an accredited college or university, and
2. Anyone who donates money to a religious organization must also donate an identical sum to fund public schools.

WOW big time LIBBY for sure.

 

[Sam Fisher]

WOW big time FUCKING KNEE-JERK ASS-WIPE for sure.

Fixed it.

 

[eponymous]

WOW big time LIBBY for sure.

Pretty middle of the road, actually, but I don't mind being labelled that way because liberal isn't a bad word and hardly anyone on the right is a conservative either, at least not when it comes to this issue.

I support a right to own guns. I don't say "bear arms" because that would mean you're literally pointing them at someone, not using one for hunting or sport or keeping one for self-defense *in the event* you have to use it. But I think your life and mine, and the lives of everyone in your family and mine are worth some modest safeguards.

And I think education is important. In debates on this issue, the lack of interest in facts and reasoned debate by people on the right has always been shocking to me. Most gun rights supporters I've interacted with over the years have been single issue voters. Their answer to crime is to "LEAVE GUNS ALONE!!" Their answer to a sluggish economy is to "LEAVE GUNS ALONE!!" Their answer to...you name it...is to "LEAVE GUNS ALONE!!" There are ignorant people on the left too, but I've always found them more open to hearing both sides, and I think that's because the left is generally better educated. Better both in terms of quantity and quality of education.

But you didn't answer my question. Why not abolish all laws? Your point was that drugs are illegal, yet they're still on our streets. If we make guns illegal, that isn't going to eliminate guns, it will only increase the number of guns that are sold illegally.

So my question is, why bother having laws at all? We know we can't get rid of crime, so what's the point in passing and enforcing legislation? For that matter, why have prisons or a justice system? Clearly it hasn't accomplished its goal, so let's just abolish it.

Do you think we should?

 

[Briana Lee]

You Miss the point. They want to ban certain types of guns. That is unacceptable to me, under any circumstance. The masses are freaking out, and screaming that their is "no need" for this, or "no need" for that. I obey the law, respect the rules, and conduct myself responsibly...because some do not, does not mean that I should be lumped into that category, whether it be by you, another member, the government, or an anonymous face in a crowd, any more then you would like to be treated badly because of who you are, or what you do,. The correlation is simple, you have a controversial profession, which some would judge you by, my enthusiasms, and hobbies are judged by some, and lead them to believe I have a certain mentality. Not really that hard to figure out, and you're damn right I take it personally, my freedoms are coming under serious scrutiny, and people with power and agendas are making major efforts to fuck me, and my fellow enthusiasts over....I take that very seriously, and it causes me to become extremely defensive.

Guns do not make me feel manly. They make me feel secure in my person, they bring me joy on many levels, and loosing the right to own what I wish, makes me feel less free, it makes me wonder how a nation could be so blind, and stupid, as to elect this traitorous fuck, to office. It sickens me, that people are so blind and oblivious to the real problems, that they jump on a band wagon to blame an inanimate object, and neglect to see the truth.

Nothing anyone says will make a blind bit of difference will it. You're just as bad as Sam in that you just turn this into a political attack on someone you didn't vote for who got into office.

I will never understand people like you put politics above a human life.......

 

[Sam Fisher]

Nothing anyone says will make a blind bit of difference will it. You're just as bad as Sam in that you just turn this into a political attack on someone you didn't vote for who got into office. I will never understand people like you put politics above a human life.......

Politics above human life you say, huh?

Your president supports abortion. I don't.