Military Service... (uh oh, this might get hot!)

Read first then reply, please... :hatsoff:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/04/Oldman.Marine.ap/index.html

:wtf: I say let the guy be. It's been 40 years. Why "set an example" and imprison the man at the age of 65? For most other types of civilian crime(s), there's a prosecutorial statute of limitations (except murder/homicide, and I think a few others - I never practiced in criminal defense law). Why is this guy getting strung up now? It's not like he joined the opposing force and started shooting against his fellow Americans. He just bailed from military service.

Bah...let it go, folks. So he deserted and refused to go to Vietnam...we had an American President or two who were excluded from military service on technicalities or who were in the "reserves" and never got called up.

What a bunch of crap. Leave the man be.

And before anyone ASSUMES anything, I DO support the USA's voluntary military service and respect our military personnel, even if I disagree with executive decisions and orders, proclamations of war, and invasions, etc. Unlike some people here, I DO think it's necessary for countries to maintain military forces, even if only for simple preservation of sovereignty, but this is the sort of military, bureaucratic, governmental horsecrap that I absolutely abhor and find embarassing.

My :2 cents:
 

jod0565

Member, you member...
He may be a little more bad than he seems. I guess the law is the law and it's the government. Maybe they'll go easy on him.
 

member20672

Closed Account
Just another thing to deal with here in the US. He broke a law, the gov't doesn't recognize age, nor do they care about the time, in their eye,s his wrong doings must not go unpunished. Maybe they just want to show the newer soldiers that even if they get away, they will still be found and prosecuted for their crime(s).
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
I guess if they want to court-martial him and gived him his dishonorable discharge, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't think they should make him serve any time.

If it were left up to me, I'd just leave him alone.
 
Ask him..how...how did you hide in your home, go to work, pay taxes and act like yourself for so long before we caught you?

We should give him a medal.

Joking aside...he should be let go but they will probably make him pay a fine and serve a few months in jail.
 

Ax3C

Banned
Nightfly said:

I say let the guy be. It's been 40 years. Why "set an example" and imprison the man at the age of 65? For most other types of civilian crime(s), there's a prosecutorial statute of limitations (except murder/homicide, and I think a few others - I never practiced in criminal defense law). Why is this guy getting strung up now? It's not like he joined the opposing force and started shooting against his fellow Americans. He just bailed from military service.

Bah...let it go, folks. So he deserted and refused to go to Vietnam...we had an American President or two who were excluded from military service on technicalities or who were in the "reserves" and never got called up.

What a bunch of crap. Leave the man be.


I whole-heartedly concur and agree, believe it or not, although the one sentence "He just bailed from military service." (bolded emphasis on the word 'just' is all mine ...) is rather ... disagreeable, shall we say?

Desertion is a crime punishable by prison sentence - rightfully so - considering that one was sworn in by oath and wears the uniform, but in an issue such as this ... given what you pointed out regarding a few of our more "popular" former Presidents ... I am most emphatically in agreement.

'Sides, the man is a senior citizen. It's not as if he can stand a post anymore.

Excellent find, 'Fly! :hatsoff:

Hey ... just in case anyone ever wants to know about the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Here's a link from the J.A.G. (Judge Advocate General):

http://www.jag.navy.mil/documents/UCMJ.pdf
 
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I'm not sure that desertion is a big problem nowdays...there was a draft back then. I agree the law is the law, and lawbreakers should be punished.
But should'nt the military as a whole have a more "important" agenda these days?
:2 cents:
 

Ax3C

Banned
AsianxxxChick said:
Hey ... just in case anyone ever wants to know about the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Here's a link from the J.A.G. (Judge Advocate General):

http://www.jag.navy.mil/documents/UCMJ.pdf


Check out exactly what Article 85 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice has to say about the matter:


> About.com - ARTICLE 85, U.C.M.J.


At least this way, those of you who are unfamiliar with the military's definition of desertion / A.W.O.L. can now have a better understanding of it.
 
I guess my opinion is while I don't think this should just be glossed over...I also don't see any value in pursuing an all out prosecution of this man. Like someone said...give him a dishonorable discharge...a ton of community service...a fine.

Wasn't there a similar story about a man who deserted from the korean war and turned himself in in Japan?
 

SeraphiM

Retired Moderator
The topic of discussion really hits home. I am veteran who faithfully served my country for 4 years. I was soldier, by that I mean I was in combat arms in the Airborne/Air Assault Infantry to be exact.
Desertion is a totally different offense than draft dodging. I can understand dodging a draft because of religious or personal beliefs, trust me no one wants a guy like that around when the shit hits the fan and bullets are flying!
My problem is with deserters. You are already in the service. IMO the time to object is before not after. It's an offense that has no statutes of limitations. It is not a "criminal" offense rather a violation of the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice). A totally different set of rules and regulations. He should be prosecuted and more than likely the panel (not jury) will take into account his age and be lenient.
 

Jagger69

Three lullabies in an ancient tongue
Colonel said:
The topic of discussion really hits home. I am veteran who faithfully served my country for 4 years. I was soldier, by that I mean I was in combat arms in the Airborne/Air Assault Infantry to be exact.
Desertion is a totally different offense than draft dodging. I can understand dodging a draft because of religious or personal beliefs, trust me no one wants a guy like that around when the shit hits the fan and bullets are flying!
My problem is with deserters. You are already in the service. IMO the time to object is before not after. It's an offense that has no statutes of limitations. It is not a "criminal" offense rather a violation of the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice). A totally different set of rules and regulations. He should be prosecuted and more than likely the panel (not jury) will take into account his age and be lenient.

Solid viewpoint for sure. I've never been in the service but when someone gets drafted, don't they automatically go into the army? Unless I am wrong (nahhh....couldn't be) if this guy was in the Marines, he enlisted voluntarily and then decided to desert so it's a little more tenuous. Right??

I still wouldn't do anything to him though.
 

Ax3C

Banned
Here is some background on the afore-mentioned link in my previous post. This defines what punitive measurements (punishment) he could be facing:

Article 85 - Desertion, Punitive Measures, U.C.M.J.


“(a) Any member of the armed forces who—

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;

(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or

(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another one of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States.

(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) Desertion with intent to remain away permanently.

(a) That the accused absented himself or herself from his or her unit, organization, or place of duty;

(b) That such absence was without authority;

(c) That the accused, at the time the absence began or at some time during the absence, intended to remain away from his or her unit, organization, or place of duty permanently; and

(d) That the accused remained absent until the date alleged. Note: If the absence was terminated by apprehension, add the following element

(e) That the accused’s absence was terminated by apprehension.

(2) Desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service.

(a) That the accused quit his or her unit, organization, or other place of duty;

(b) That the accused did so with the intent to avoid a certain duty or shirk a certain service;

(c) That the duty to be performed was hazardous or the service important;

(d) That the accused knew that he or she would be required for such duty or service; and

(e) That the accused remained absent until the date alleged.

(3) Desertion before notice of acceptance of resignation.

(a) That the accused was a commissioned officer of an armed force of the United States, and had tendered his or her resignation;

(b) That before he or she received notice of the acceptance of the resignation, the accused quit his or her post or proper duties;

(c) That the accused did so with the intent to remain away permanently from his or her post or proper duties; and

(d) That the accused remained absent until the date alleged. Note: If the absence was terminated by apprehension, add the following element

(e) That the accused’s absence was terminated by apprehension.

(4) Attempted desertion.

(a) That the accused did a certain overt act;

(b) That the act was done with the specific intent to desert;

(c) That the act amounted to more than mere preparation; and

(d) That the act apparently tended to effect the commission of the offense of desertion.

This'll take two consecutive posts ...
 

Ax3C

Banned
Article 85 - Desertion, Punitive Measures, U.C.M.J. (cont.)



Explanation.

(1) Desertion with intent to remain away permanently.

(a) In general. Desertion with intent to remain away permanently is complete when the person absents himself or herself without authority from his or her unit, organization, or place of duty, with the intent to remain away therefrom permanently. A prompt repentance and return, while material in extenuation, is no defense. It is not necessary that the person be absent entirely from military jurisdiction and control.

(b) Absence without authority —inception, duration, termination. See paragraph 10c.

(c) Intent to remain away permanently.

(i) The intent to remain away permanently from the unit, organization, or place of duty may be formed any time during the unauthorized absence. The intent need not exist throughout the absence, or for any particular period of time, as long as it exists at some time during the absence.

(ii) The accused must have intended to remain away permanently from the unit, organization, or place of duty. When the accused had such an intent, it is no defense that the accused also intended to report for duty elsewhere, or to enlist or accept an appointment in the same or a different armed force.

(iii) The intent to remain away permanently may be established by circumstantial evidence. Among the circumstances from which an inference may be drawn that an accused intended to remain absent permanently or; that the period of absence was lengthy; that the accused attempted to, or did, dispose of uniforms or other military property; that the accused purchased a ticket for a distant point or was arrested, apprehended, or surrendered a considerable distance from the accused’s station; that the accused could have conveniently surrendered to military control but did not; that the accused was dissatisfied with the accused’s unit, ship, or with military service; that the accused made remarks indicating an intention to desert; that the accused was under charges or had escaped from confinement at the time of the absence; that the accused made preparations indicative of an intent not to return (for example, financial arrangements), or that the accused enlisted or accepted an appointment in the same or another armed force without disclosing the fact that the accused had not been regularly separated, or entered any foreign armed service without being authorized by the United States. On the other hand, the following are included in the circumstances which may tend to negate an inference that the accused intended to remain away permanently: previous long and excellent service; that the accused left valuable personal property in the unit or on the ship; or that the accused was under the influence of alcohol or drugs during the absence. These lists are illustrative only.

(iv) Entries on documents, such as personnel accountability records, which administratively refer to an accused as a “deserter” are not evidence of intent to desert.

(v) Proof of, or a plea of guilty to, an unauthorized absence, even of extended duration, does not, without more, prove guilt of desertion.

(d) Effect of enlistment or appointment in the same or a different armed force. Article 85a(3) does not state a separate offense. Rather, it is a rule of evidence by which the prosecution may prove intent to remain away permanently. Proof of an enlistment or acceptance of an appointment in a service without disclosing a preexisting duty status in the same or a different service provides the basis from which an inference of intent to permanently remain away from the earlier unit, organization, or place of duty may be drawn. Furthermore, if a person, without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces, enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another armed force, the person’s presence in the military service under such an enlistment or appointment is not a return to military control and does not terminate any desertion or absence without authority from the earlier unit or organization, unless the facts of the earlier period of service are known to military authorities. If a person, while in desertion, enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another armed force, and deserts while serving the enlistment or appointment, the person may be tried and convicted for each desertion.

(2) Quitting unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service.

(a) Hazardous duty or important service. “Hazardous duty” or “important service” may include service such as duty in a combat or other dangerous area; embarkation for certain foreign or sea duty; movement to a port of embarkation for that purpose; entrainment for duty on the border or coast in time of war or threatened invasion or other disturbances; strike or riot duty; or employment in aid of the civil power in, for example, protecting property, or quelling or preventing disorder in times of great public disaster. Such services as drill, target practice, maneuvers, and practice marches are not ordinarily “hazardous duty or important service.” Whether a duty is hazardous or a service is important depends upon the circumstances of the particular case, and is a question of fact for the court-martial to decide.

(b) Quits. “Quits” in Article 85 means “goes absent without authority.”

(c) Actual knowledge. Article 85 a(2) requires proof that the accused actually knew of the hazardous duty or important service. Actual knowledge may be proved by circumstantial evidence.

(3) Attempting to desert. Once the attempt is made, the fact that the person desists, voluntarily or otherwise, does not cancel the offense. The offense is complete, for example, if the person, intending to desert, hides in an empty freight car on a military reservation, intending to escape by being taken away in the car. Entering the car with the intent to desert is the overt act. For a more detailed discussion of attempts, see paragraph 4. For an explanation concerning intent to remain away permanently, see sub-paragraph 9c(1)(c).

(4) Prisoner with executed punitive discharge. A prisoner whose dismissal or dishonorable or bad-conduct discharge has been executed is not a “member of the armed forces” within the meaning of Articles 85 or 86, although the prisoner may still be subject to military law under Article 2(a)(7). If the facts warrant, such a prisoner could be charged with escape from confinement under Article 95, or an offense under Article 134.

Lesser included offense.

Article 86—absence without leave

Maximum punishment.

(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.

(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.

(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
 

SeraphiM

Retired Moderator
Jagger69 said:
Solid viewpoint for sure. I've never been in the service but when someone gets drafted, don't they automatically go into the army? Unless I am wrong (nahhh....couldn't be) if this guy was in the Marines, he enlisted voluntarily and then decided to desert so it's a little more tenuous. Right??

I still wouldn't do anything to him though.

When someone is drafted and shows up. He then submits himself to the mandatory conscription policy (Draft) he is then in military service. Usually after his military oath.
The article reads as though he were a deserter not a dodger. Here's what I consider the different between the two:

A Draft Dodger is a person who defies and avoids ("dodges") the conscription policies of the nation in which he or she is a citizen or resident, by leaving the country or going into hiding.
Deserters are those who join the military, but flee from the service (including from the field of battle).
 
Everything that needs to be said has pretty much said.........damn I hate being late. The only thing that really hasn't been mentioned is the fact that since he deserted during war time, I'm pretty sure he could still be given the death penalty.


Yeah I think he should be tried, but I don't think he should deserve a severe punishment.
 
I saw something on one of the "cerebral channels" on cable not too long ago - discovery or learning channel or history or something, or maybe it was like a news program like Dateline or something where a guy went AWOL back in Korea or Vietnam or something, but he hid in New Zealand using a pseudonym for like 30-40 years, and at age 72 he did internet research on procedures and possible punishments...he found out how and where to turn himself in in the States. He was discharged withut honor or whatever and they let him go due to his age and hardships and the fact that he did so voluntarily and out of his good conscience. He then had already achieved citizenship in NZ and so now he's a dual citizen and he has reunited with his family and so on...they thought he had been killed in action... :eek:
 
I think the punishment with all desertions needs to be tailored to the situation that happened. If he was drafted I would absolutely be more lenient to him than if he joined voluntarily. Being a conscientious objector doesn't necessarily mean that you won't be enlisted. Keep in mind that if you don't have any religious or moral objection to war, but you think the war itself is a stupid idea and you don't want to go over there or you don't think it is worth risking American lives that isn't good enough. So you could face the prospect of being sent over to some God forsaken land where you will have a good chance to get killed for reasons that are entirely stupid to you. Also there are ramifications to dodging the draft so that isn't an acceptable alternative.
The cost to his nation needs to be taken account. If he just never went over to fight it is one thing. If somebody ends up abandoning their unit and directly causing the deaths of its members then that is something that just can't be forgiven with time. Maybe the worse thing a solder can do is abandon his own citizens he is protecting to the fate of their enemies. In that case a sentence of life imprisonment to hard labor or execution would be a suitable penalty(I personally don't support capital punishment unless the person that is executed agrees to be so)

In this case I wouldn't punish him too hard. Especially after all this time, it is a waste of resources and time. Maybe a few days in jail or some community service would be the right punishment. I notice we don't throw high up government officials in jail or execute them for being so stupid in the use of the lives of their own countrymen. It isn't entirely fair to only hold one side completely accountable for their actions.
 
I don't want to be a soldier in the USA and so be killed in the iraq war!
I really scared of going in one of there terrorst- countrys!
 

BNF

Ex-SuperMod
Bushido said:
I don't want to be a soldier in the USA and so be killed in the iraq war!
I really scared of going in one of there terrorst- countrys!

"“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.” Winston Churchill

There are few, if any other, nations on earth that will find a problem, acknowledge the problem, try to fix it, try to fix it, try to fix it....and make it right.

I know that is a bit off topic, but Europe as a whole (Italy included), lives in the status quo where it is easiest.

---

Desertion is not, imo, the equivilent of murder - where there is no statue of limitations. After this amount of time, a lifetime in fact, monetary renumeration surely should be offered as an alternative.

I was told as a child to not count on the law to protect you. As a 1o year old that covers one or two ideas. As an adult, I see the meaning. In the end, someone is always chosen to be made an example of. It happens everywhere, and often has roots in other activities of the accused. Regardless, this man did desert. It happened in my time and the consequences were far worse than what has been outlined, "encyclopediatically" above.

I cannot avoid the fact that a lifetime has passed for him, a generation in fact. The prosecution surely must have motives greater than the one released. IME that is always the case.
 
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