Jason Giambi admits to steroids......

[McRocket]

If it turns out Bonds took steroids - and the evidence seems to say that he did - I just think there should be the ever popular asterisk besides the records and let the fans decide what they think of it.
Also, did not several ex-players come out and say that at least 50% of players take them? Now if that is true; and it is made public; you are going to have a hard time with the record books if you have to eliminate every record achieved by a player on steroids.
I'd just go with the asterisk.

 

[Reaper of Souls]

The evidence that you speak of is documented proof that he received them, not used them. Besides, if these steroids are so dangerous to the human body, then the results will eventually come to light and then the punishments can be handed down.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

That's correct - however they do increase his speed and strength, allowing him to swing the bat faster and hit the ball farther. That means a shot that'd normally be caught at the warning track instead goes off the wall for a double; a shot that'd normally go off the wall for a double instead becomes a home run. Undoubtedly, an athlete on steroids can do more than the same athlete who is clean.

Lets not forget that steriods have allowed him to stay in better shape. Being in better shape prevents you from being injured, and helps you heal quicker when you are.

I won't bother looking for pics to prove it, but have a glance at Bonds when he was with the Pirates, now have a look at him. Oh yeah, that is all natural.

 

[member5726]

Lets not forget that steriods have allowed him to stay in better shape. Being in better shape prevents you from being injured, and helps you heal quicker when you are.

I won't bother looking for pics to prove it, but have a glance at Bonds when he was with the Pirates, now have a look at him. Oh yeah, that is all natural.

I see your point... but Giambi took the stuff and he was injured for the better part of the last two seasons... so maybe it help when you take it, but there's very bad consequences.

 

[member5726]

Barry Bonds admits to steroids also...

Well i guess now we all know...
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_y...ug=ap-giants-bonds-steroids&prov=ap&type=lgns

 

[jawso]

Wow. That's hilarious. Barry didn't know he was taking steriods. Haha. How do you not know what it is. It's not like it comes in a can without a label from a grociery store. There freekin roids! And if Barry didn't know what it was, why did he take them? And even if he, somehow, didn't know what he was taking, its still no excuse.

Bonds: "Gee, I wonder what this needle is? I know, I'll shove it up my ass 100 times, and find out. Ohh shit, there roids."

I really wanna try this excuse. What, this white powder is crack?!? I had no idea. Heroine? I thought it was a flu shot. Wow, I had no idea the fire was going to burn down that house like that.

He thought it was arthritis cream. Ok. He hits 73 homers at 36. Whata cream. The guy is bigger then he has ever been. Must be the arthritis cream.

Like, I always kinda figured he was taking roids. But the fact that he continuely denied taking them, the fact that so many believed he was telling the truth and sticking up for him, and having him now say that "he didn't know they were roids," that's what ticks me off the most.

I don't think he or any ball player should take all the blame for this though. MLB let these guys do it, knew they were taking it, and let it continue because they were starting to become popular again and making more money again. It's a damn shame.

 

[ckjedi66]

Barry Bonds is a self centered scum bag, it figures he would make up some half assed lie. I like Jason Giambi and am sorry he felt he needed to take steroids, i will miss him on the Yankees, but they have to cut him loose or else they will send the message that its ok to be on steroids.

 

[big lu]

Damn .. I take up for this guy one day and then the next day it comes out that he admitted to taking steriods. Well he kind of admits.

Bonds' shot at the Hall of Fame is screwed up for sure and huge asterick will probably be placed beside his HR record right up there with McGwire's

but Baseball does protect its own - I don't think he or Giambi will be properly punished when this thing is over

 

[sean9m]

Barry Bonds didnt know ???

 

[parker]

Damn .. I take up for this guy one day and then the next day it comes out that he admitted to taking steriods. Well he kind of admits.

Bonds' shot at the Hall of Fame is screwed up for sure and huge asterick will probably be placed beside his HR record right up there with McGwire's

but Baseball does protect its own - I don't think he or Giambi will be properly punished when this thing is over

An asterisk for being on performance-enhancing drugs? That would be interesting.

 

[big lu]

Yeah but that cream was a banned substance. He "claimed" that he thought it was a performance-enhancing drug.

 

[McRocket]

Unless someone here personally knows Barry Bonds EXTREMELY well; no one can be positive whether he knew about the steroids or not. (although if you assume he did not you probably just yesterday purchased 10,000 Montreal Expos banners 'at cost').

Whether he knew or not is almost irrelevent. If it is proven that he took a banned substance while playing then I believe an asterisk should be put beside his name in the record books. And that is that.

If taking steroids was the difference between me getting a major league contract or being stuck in the minors - I'd take the steroids in a second. Or if I thought taking steroids would be the difference between a 3 year/$2 million contract or a 5 year/$15 million dollar contract - I'd be lining up at Falco (or whatever it's called) just as soon as I could.
So I don't blame Bonds (or anyone else) if he (they) did knowingly take them. Nor do I blame him for denying it - what else can he relistically do?
But if you get caught - you gotta suffer the consequences. And in this case it is the 'dreaded' asterisk.

 

[big lu]

If taking steroids was the difference between me getting a major league contract or being stuck in the minors - I'd take the steroids in a second. Or if I thought taking steroids would be the difference between a 3 year/$2 million contract or a 5 year/$15 million dollar contract - I'd be lining up at Falco (or whatever it's called) just as soon as I could.
So I don't blame Bonds (or anyone else) if he (they) did knowingly take them. Nor do I blame him for denying it - what else can he relistically do?
But if you get caught - you gotta suffer the consequences. And in this case it is the 'dreaded' asterisk.

"Bonds and Giambi both got 100 million dollar contracts"

"The game has been more exciting because of players using steriods"

"You can't blame them for taking it"

I'm a fan of Bonds & the Giants and I liked Giambi when he was with Oakland but I got to disagree with that kind of logic. If an athelete is taking steriods and he's out there breaking records and a whole team is riding on his performance to get thr pinnet every year then that's just wrong plain and simple. Taking these drugs is not fair to guys that don't take them... but integrity issues aside, what about your body and health? I read where Giambi was also taking a drug called "Deco" which is supposed to be a horse hormone type steroid that's is supposed to be pretty dangerous. Why jepordize your life and how you are precieved in the history of the game? For what? A bigger contract? There are plenty of athlete's out there not on the juice and make alot of money and are very successful.

For an extra million or two? Man, you're going to sell your entire future down the drain for an extra million or two? They're already making 15 million a goddamn year. Another million or two? No disrespect and pardon me for saying so, but that is fucked up. Even guys who ride the pine all year make over $1 million a year. I'd sit on the bench for a cool million a year for a couple of years and take my money and run. You're going to risk blowing out an ACL or some shit because your body is too big for the muscles to actually work right and lose your pee pee (yes impotence is a side effect) for an extra million or two? Again, that's fucked up, dude.

 

[McRocket]

"Bonds and Giambi both got 100 million dollar contracts"

"The game has been more exciting because of players using steriods"

"You can't blame them for taking it"

I'm a fan of Bonds & the Giants and I liked Giambi when he was with Oakland but I got to disagree with that kind of logic. If an athelete is taking steriods and he's out there breaking records and a whole team is riding on his performance to get thr pinnet every year then that's just wrong plain and simple. Taking these drugs is not fair to guys that don't take them... but integrity issues aside, what about your body and health? I read where Giambi was also taking a drug called "Deco" which is supposed to be a horse hormone type steroid that's is supposed to be pretty dangerous. Why jepordize your life and how you are precieved in the history of the game? For what? A bigger contract? There are plenty of athlete's out there not on the juice and make alot of money and are very successful.

For an extra million or two? Man, you're going to sell your entire future down the drain for an extra million or two? They're already making 15 million a goddamn year. Another million or two? No disrespect and pardon me for saying so, but that is fucked up. Even guys who ride the pine all year make over $1 million a year. I'd sit on the bench for a cool million a year for a couple of years and take my money and run. You're going to risk blowing out an ACL or some shit because your body is too big for the muscles to actually work right and lose your pee pee (yes impotence is a side effect) for an extra million or two? Again, that's fucked up, dude.

One: You typed; 'Taking these drugs is not fair to guys that don't take them.'
How do know how many guys are not taking them? Wasen't it Jose Conseco who said that 70-80% of major leaguers are taking them? And that was a few years ago. I think he would know better then you or I.
Besides, do you have some inside information on what players are not taking them? Name one player that you can prove 100% is not taking steroids in MLB. Just one.
And MLB drug testing is/was a joke. Apparently they let you know before they give you the test - plenty of time to clear the drug from your system. And the newer steroids apparently cannot be detected - at present.

Two: I assume that you are not a major league player. Then how can you have the slightest idea what pressures they face and/or put on themselves to succeed? They may have pressures to get better year after year that you (or I) could not possibly understand.
Personally, I believe (with no hard proof) that most major league players - especially hitters - are taking steroids. And I have no problem with that. It is their lives to do with as they wish. Steroids were standard in the N.F.L. (from what I read/heard) for years. They are everywhere and the average fan should stop being so incredibly naive.
Are they bad for you? Of course. But what business is it of yours if Bonds wants to take steroids? It's his life and his body. It's wrong and it should be. ANd if baseball REALLY wants to stop it, I believe they could tomorrow. But they don't. Look at all the hype the Bonds homer chase got? And McGuire and Sosa before that? You don't think baseball wants to stop that do you?
Instead of getting on Bonds and other players cases. Fans shoould demand the league get rid of them. To expect a competitive player to not use every edge he/she can use to make themselves preform better (whether legal or otherwise) is naive in the extremis.
Fans want players to be honourable and play fair. Right. Those that do and expect it are living in a dream world. One thing drives professional sports (imo) WAY more then anything else - money. Period. And athletes will do whatever it takes to get it. And I don't blame them one bit. As long as it is not hurting anyone but themselves then it doesn't bother me.
Oh, and the fans? The fans feelings can go take a flying leap - are the fans going to take care of the player if he blows all his money? Of course not. The fans love winners and hate losers and players know that (I suspect).

 

[jawso]

I agree with alot of what your saying mcrocket. I think fans do know that steriods are heavily involved in most sports. I just don't think they care very much. People want to see homeruns, guys getting smashed by 8 foot tall, 400 lbs linemen, so steriod use is accepted and even encouraged. I don't like it, but why should MLB care if a handful don't like it, but bus loads do.

The leagues know about this too, like I said in my former post, and their just as guilty if not more so for allowing this stuff to happen, because it is wrong.

Where I disagree with you is athletes only caring about the money. If you are a pro athlete, you love the game you play. If you didn't, you would not have sacrificed so many years of training and leaving your home at 14 if you didn't love what you were doing. Money is a bonus and its also a right. If their industry is making billions off of them, then they certain deserve a fair cut of that and I personally have no problem with athletes getting these contracts.

If you have a problem with players making millions, don't put your money into sports.

 

[McRocket]

I agree with alot of what your saying mcrocket. I think fans do know that steriods are heavily involved in most sports. I just don't think they care very much. People want to see homeruns, guys getting smashed by 8 foot tall, 400 lbs linemen, so steriod use is accepted and even encouraged. I don't like it, but why should MLB care if a handful don't like it, but bus loads do.

The leagues know about this too, like I said in my former post, and their just as guilty if not more so for allowing this stuff to happen, because it is wrong.

Where I disagree with you is athletes only caring about the money. If you are a pro athlete, you love the game you play. If you didn't, you would not have sacrificed so many years of training and leaving your home at 14 if you didn't love what you were doing. Money is a bonus and its also a right. If their industry is making billions off of them, then they certain deserve a fair cut of that and I personally have no problem with athletes getting these contracts.

If you have a problem with players making millions, don't put your money into sports.

I agree with you that at one time these superstars cared about the game. And I imagine they still love playing the sport itself. I mean ontop of the game play itself - who doesn't love playing something that they are fantastic at and have screaming fans tell you they 'love you'.
But once they have been professionals for a while, then I think there attitude changes.
Just look at the N.H.L. players. They are making about, what? $1.8 million per year and the league (re: the owners) want to freeze the salaries at that level (minus inflation - I assume) and implement a salary cap. So the players refuse to sign because $1.8 million is not enough? You have a point; but please do not tell me that major sports professional athletes are not first and foremost about the money. Especially the veterens. If they weren't then the N.H.L. would be going on right now.

 

[jawso]

I agree with you that at one time these superstars cared about the game. And I imagine they still love playing the sport itself. I mean ontop of the game play itself - who doesn't love playing something that they are fantastic at and have screaming fans tell you they 'love you'.
But once they have been professionals for a while, then I think there attitude changes.
Just look at the N.H.L. players. They are making about, what? $1.8 million per year and the league (re: the owners) want to freeze the salaries at that level (minus inflation - I assume) and implement a salary cap. So the players refuse to sign because $1.8 million is not enough? You have a point; but please do not tell me that major sports professional athletes are not first and foremost about the money. Especially the veterens. If they weren't then the N.H.L. would be going on right now.

Haha, again I'm gonna have to disagree with you, this time on the NHL issue. Perhaps this needs to be in another thread but I don't see any around so I'll let my thoughts out here.

Understand that although these pro athletes are playing a game, it is infact a business. Now because people are stupid and often spend more time on sports then with their own families, a lot of money is poured into the industry. Because fans come to see the players play the game, the players deserve their share of the generated revenue. This is also top of the line, meaning these athletes aren't easily replaced.

True, all pro athletes are making excellent money. Way more then they ever should. However, because the pro sporting industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, they deserve some of that share, even if there just playin a game.

If players do not take the money that is being given to them, the owner takes it all and that's why you see players fighting for more in arbitration. If they don't, then guys in the same production bracket will make less because he is making less. Ex. If Mike Richards gets 40 pts and makes 5 million, every guy who gets 40 pts can argue for that same kinda cash. If Richards takes less money, then all those 40 pts players go down in salary. Hence the market place system.

Now on the cap. First, the cap does not include inflation. Secondly, everyone involved, including fans who are not involved directly, believe that it is the owners fault for this mess the NHL is now in. After all, they gave these guys the millions, players would be stupid not to take it, right?

Now, because it is basically agreed upon that it is the owners fault for overspending, why should the players be penalized? Would the owners accept a cap on themselves limiting the amount of money they could make? Would you, an average joe (i assume) accept to work for a company say for 10 years knowing that you will always have a limit on how much you can make?

I don't think so. Therefore, why should the players.

Other issues involved in this situation is how much the NHL is really making and how much are they really losing. If they are losing money, is it because of the current CBA or is it caused by something else (ex. Canadian dollar, poor attendance, etc.) They can put stuff in their books all they want, the fact is they can hide the truth on paper just as well and just like any other major company.

The players have always cared about the game and always will. If they only cared about the money, especially the vets as you say, the vets would get the NHLPA to agree to whatever so they can retire with a few more million. But because they do care about the game and the future players, they fight. Alls I can say is good luck to the players and more power to them. :thumbsup:

 

[McRocket]

Well, it comes down to (in terms of the N.H.L. lockout) whther you believe that the league is losing money under the present system. The person that performed the audit apparently came with fantastic credentials.
So I tend to believe him. But let's assume they are not losing money (the owners), I still want a cap. It works in the NFL and the NBA and how can controlling costs not work for the NHL (or any league)?

And the players are looking out for future players? Some maybe. I cannot read their minds (neither can you I assume). So neither of us can say for certainty what is in the 700+ players minds.

And in terms of the players deserving part of the pot. I say, no they don't. When Ford or GM makes money one year; does that mean that the workers deserve to share in the profits? Of course not. That is for the shareholders.
The workers (as NHL players are) are hired to do a job and are given a salary to do said job. That contract has nothing to do with the profitability of the company (or team) in question. They were paid to work 40 hours per week for x amount of dollars. Period. It is like if you pay a contractor to install a garage. Do you now give him part of the value of your house now that he has raised it's value by adding the garage? No. He gets his fee and goes on his way.
Same with NHL players. They are paid to play hockey and are paid per 82 game schedule accordingly. Why should they get more then that? They were hired for a job at a fixed price and did the job. Period.
They are employees. Not owners or shareholders. They deserve nothing else.
Besides. If they all died when the meeting place they were at to talk about the lockout blew up; would that be the end of the NHL? I doubt it. THe owners would just hire the next best 730+ players they could find and go from there. Sure sales would suffer. But eventually (I assume) fans would come back. The players are widgets. Nothing more.
If they want to earn profits, go and buy there own teams (like Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieuz did).

I understand what you are saying. And you have some interesting points. I just don't agree with it.

 

[big lu]

One: You typed; 'Taking these drugs is not fair to guys that don't take them.'
How do know how many guys are not taking them? Wasen't it Jose Conseco who said that 70-80% of major leaguers are taking them? And that was a few years ago. I think he would know better then you or I.
Besides, do you have some inside information on what players are not taking them? Name one player that you can prove 100% is not taking steroids in MLB. Just one.
And MLB drug testing is/was a joke. Apparently they let you know before they give you the test - plenty of time to clear the drug from your system. And the newer steroids apparently cannot be detected - at present.

Two: I assume that you are not a major league player. Then how can you have the slightest idea what pressures they face and/or put on themselves to succeed? They may have pressures to get better year after year that you (or I) could not possibly understand.
Personally, I believe (with no hard proof) that most major league players - especially hitters - are taking steroids. And I have no problem with that. It is their lives to do with as they wish. Steroids were standard in the N.F.L. (from what I read/heard) for years. They are everywhere and the average fan should stop being so incredibly naive.
Are they bad for you? Of course. But what business is it of yours if Bonds wants to take steroids? It's his life and his body. It's wrong and it should be. ANd if baseball REALLY wants to stop it, I believe they could tomorrow. But they don't. Look at all the hype the Bonds homer chase got? And McGuire and Sosa before that? You don't think baseball wants to stop that do you?
Instead of getting on Bonds and other players cases. Fans shoould demand the league get rid of them. To expect a competitive player to not use every edge he/she can use to make themselves preform better (whether legal or otherwise) is naive in the extremis.
Fans want players to be honourable and play fair. Right. Those that do and expect it are living in a dream world. One thing drives professional sports (imo) WAY more then anything else - money. Period. And athletes will do whatever it takes to get it. And I don't blame them one bit. As long as it is not hurting anyone but themselves then it doesn't bother me.
Oh, and the fans? The fans feelings can go take a flying leap - are the fans going to take care of the player if he blows all his money? Of course not. The fans love winners and hate losers and players know that (I suspect).

Okay mcrocket you threw some obvious facts out there and and then you moved away from what I orignally took issue with.

Nobody said that steroids weren't widespread. Well at least I don't think I implied that. Conseco said it was 70% ,true, and Conte (the guy who was distributing the drugs) said that 50% of MLBers have used them. He even personally named Marion Jones and Bill Romanowski as having used them too. So there's no doubt that not only probably alot of hitters in MLB are taking steroids but athletes in other sports are on them as well. No disagreement there. The other thing we aggree on is that baseball, like all big business, is money hungry - The league is going to look the other way because they take in billions from the teams. Owners look the other way because they make an enormous amount of money from the paying customer. Coaches look the other way because the team benefits from winning. There is alot of money at stake. So ofcoarse Baseball is not going to clean itself up. .. I already understand all of that and it's not the point.

You ducked my orignal point. You said that you don't blame these guys and if you were were in their shoes you'd go to BALCO too and take steroids in a second just to get a bigger contract... that's what I took issue with .. and then it seemed like you tried to justify that thinking by saying, in way, that most players do it so it's okay. Come on dude, you know that's not okay. You mean to tell me that if faced the same choices with all the money that you would be already making as a pro that it is alright to put everything you worked for at risk just to earn a couple million dollars that you don't need. Really? mmm I don't know. That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

It's not going to matter how hard Bonds worked to get where he is and what he does in the future probably wont matter either, most likely he is gonna be known from now on as a guy who was on dope that may have never had the power were it not for steriods. I don't really don't see you feel how risking that kind of stigma is worth a big 5 year contract.

That's all I was getting at.

I look at it this way there are alot of unwritten rules in the world and by taking steroids in baseball you were considered a cheater whether no one would ever come out and say it but it was something that was not supposed to go on even though there was no rule on it the point now is this get the people out that need to be out get people educated on the matter and impliment a better policy on the situation kinda like the NFL is doing

 

[McRocket]

Okay mcrocket you threw some obvious facts out there and and then you moved away from what I orignally took issue with.

Nobody said that steroids weren't widespread. Well at least I don't think I implied that. Conseco said it was 70% ,true, and Conte (the guy who was distributing the drugs) said that 50% of MLBers have used them. He even personally named Marion Jones and Bill Romanowski as having used them too. So there's no doubt that not only probably alot of hitters in MLB are taking steroids but athletes in other sports are on them as well. No disagreement there. The other thing we aggree on is that baseball, like all big business, is money hungry - The league is going to look the other way because they take in billions from the teams. Owners look the other way because they make an enormous amount of money from the paying customer. Coaches look the other way because the team benefits from winning. There is alot of money at stake. So ofcoarse Baseball is not going to clean itself up. .. I already understand all of that and it's not the point.

You ducked my orignal point. You said that you don't blame these guys and if you were were in their shoes you'd go to BALCO too and take steroids in a second just to get a bigger contract... that's what I took issue with .. and then it seemed like you tried to justify that thinking by saying, in way, that most players do it so it's okay. Come on dude, you know that's not okay. You mean to tell me that if faced the same choices with all the money that you would be already making as a pro that it is alright to put everything you worked for at risk just to earn a couple million dollars that you don't need. Really? mmm I don't know. That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

It's not going to matter how hard Bonds worked to get where he is and what he does in the future probably wont matter either, most likely he is gonna be known from now on as a guy who was on dope that may have never had the power were it not for steriods. I don't really don't see you feel how risking that kind of stigma is worth a big 5 year contract.

That's all I was getting at.

I look at it this way there are alot of unwritten rules in the world and by taking steroids in baseball you were considered a cheater whether no one would ever come out and say it but it was something that was not supposed to go on even though there was no rule on it the point now is this get the people out that need to be out get people educated on the matter and impliment a better policy on the situation kinda like the NFL is doing

I, generally, like the way you make your points. Clearly and without getting overly emotional about it. And your right. I did go off on another tangent at the end there.

But I was not saying (or at least not intending to say) that I would take steroids just because others were taking it. What the other players do is almost irrelevent. My point was that if I could take steroids, and get away with it, and it would make me miillions of extra dollars - I believe I would probably do it. Is it unethical? Sure. But so what. Sports is just a game. It's not war or life. It's just entertainment. And if I can take something to make me millions of dollars - then I'm in. Who am I hurting? Myself and that's about it.
And to those that would say your ripping off the fans (not that you have); I say so what? I owe them nothing. No one put a gun to their heads to watch. And if they are going to be stupid enough to pay the ridiculous amounts of money to go and see a game - it serves them right.
And on my own little rant. I don't blame the owners or the players for the lockout. They are both grown men playing a kids game and acting like kids. It's the way sports always (seems) to be. And, I assume, it's the way it always will be. You can't expect maturity from children.
No, I blame the fans. As I said above. Their the ones naive enough to pay all the big bucks. They can run the leagues if they want. If the fans got together to form their own union - say all season ticket holders - and demanded that the owners and players (in the NHL lockout, for example. But it should work with any major sport) work it out of they would boycott the games for, say, six months. They'd work it out pronto, I would guess.
And not just that. The fans could set the salary cap to whatever they wanted (as long as it was still profitable to owners). And could decide a whole bunch more stuff.
Major pro sports is like politics - kind of. Most of the fans (and voters) seem to think that it is bigger then them and out of their hands and that the owners (and politicians) will do the right thing eventually. I think enough time has passed to prove that this is an unrealistic pipe dream. If you want change in sports (or politics) you have to take the initiative and force the powers that be to listen. Most players, owners (and politicians) are like little children that have been given too much power. Watch over them like a hawk and they will basically do the right thing. Let them loose - and they will run amok.

And finally. I have known alot of people personally who have had modest financial lives and then suddenly became millionaires. And you would be amazed (possibly) how little they appreciate it. They just want more money. They aren't bad people. They are just normal. It's a LONG story; but basically, when someone achieves a superficial goal (like money, power or fame) they usually find that it is not what they thought it was. So instead of looking inwards for the answer - they just figure they need more money. power and/or fame. That is why so many famous, rich people (I believe) get so fucked up. Thye have all the money you could want and it is still not enough.
That is why I think Barry Bonds and others risk it all to stay ontop and make that extra unnecessary cash. They don't need it - but I bet you they think they do.

Sorry that took so long.