Is your money safe in a Euro bank?

bobjustbob

Proud member of FreeOnes Hall Of Fame. Retired to
Savings Account Seizure Plan Draws Fury in Cyprus

(NICOSIA, Cyprus) — A plan to seize up to 10 percent of savings accounts in Cyprus to help pay for a €15.8 billion financial bailout was met with fury Monday, and the government shut down banks until later this week while lawmakers wrangled over how to keep the island nation from bankruptcy.

Though the euro and stock prices of European banks fell, global financial markets largely remained calm, and there was little sense that bank account holders elsewhere across the continent faced similar risk. Asian stock markets rose Tuesday, shaking off jitters sparked by Cyprus’ financial crisis.

Political leaders in Cyprus scrambled to devise a new plan that would not be so burdensome for people with less than €100,000 in the bank.

The authorities delayed a parliamentary vote on the seizure of €5.8 billion and ordered banks to remain shut until Thursday while they try to modify the deal, which must be approved by other eurozone governments. Once a deal is in place, they will be ready to lend Cyprus €10 billion ($13 billion) in rescue loans.

A rejection of the package could see the country go bankrupt and possibly drop out of the euro currency — an outcome that would be even more damaging to financial markets’ confidence.

Even while playing down the chance of fresh market turmoil, experts warned that the surprise move broke an important taboo against making depositors pay for Europe’s bailouts. As a result, it may have longer-term consequences for confidence in Europe’s banking system — and its ability to end its financial crisis.

“It’s a precedent for all European countries. Their money in every bank is not safe,” said lawyer Simos Angelides at an angry protest outside parliament in Cyprus’ capital, Nicosia, where people chanted, “Thieves, thieves!”

Eurozone finance ministers held a telephone conference Monday night, and concluded that small depositors should not be hit as hard as others. They said the Cypriot authorities will stagger the deposit seizures more, but they remained firm in demanding that the overall sum of money raised by the seizures remain the same.

In the short term, there was little sign of a new explosion in the European financial crisis. Stock markets dropped in early hours but stabilized by the close. The Dow Jones industrial average fell 62.05 points, or 0.4 percent, to 14,452.06 Monday. The euro fell 0.6 percent — a bad day, but hardly a token of impending doom. Government bond prices for Italy and Spain were roughly unchanged, suggesting that investors do not expect the market trouble to spread beyond Cyprus for now.

In Asia, most benchmarks rose modestly Tuesday while Japan’s Nikkei 225 index jumped 2 percent to 12,467.18.

In part, that may be due to the fact that Cyprus’ case is by many measures an exception.

The decision to hit deposits up to €100,000 ($129,290) — the deposit insurance limit in Cyprus — with a 6.75 percent tax and those above that with a 9.9 percent tax was dictated partly by the unusual qualities of the country’s financial system.

Cyprus, with only 0.2 percent of the eurozone economy, has a bloated banking system seven times the size of the island’s economy. Losses on Greek government bonds had crippled Cypriot banks and required government money to bail them out. Meanwhile, a large proportion of deposits — 37 percent — come from people outside Cyprus and the European Union, much of it from Russia.

European leaders wanted to limit the size of the rescue loans — which are backed by European taxpayers — to €10 billion. Leaders were also reluctant to bail out Russian depositors whose funds may be the result of tax evasion, crime or money laundering.

Dario Perkins, an analyst at Lombard Street Research, noted that “the German government couldn’t be seen bailing out Russian mafiosi just before an election.”

He said the bailout also showed that European leaders were willing to decisively confront Cyprus’ problem — rather than postponing the day of reckoning with a partial solution. “On one level, you could argue this deal is good news,” he wrote in a note to investors.

Officials say by tapping the depositors, they are reducing the total amount of debt taken on by the government, keeping it to a high but manageable 100 percent of GDP by 2020. That will mean less-painful austerity cutbacks than those that were imposed on Greece as a condition of its loans. Partly as a result, Greece is in the sixth year of recession.

Markets have been more resistant to new shocks since the European Central Bank’s offer to purchase the bonds of indebted countries, lowering their borrowing costs. No bonds have been bought, but the offer’s mere existence has calmed markets and left the eurozone far more resilient than it was a year ago. Last month’s indecisive election in heavily indebted Italy, for instance, ruffled the market for only a day or two. Such fears were shortly dismissed by ECB President Mario Draghi as only “the angst of the week.”

European authorities, meanwhile, have ways to defuse bank runs, should they occur. If depositors start withdrawing money, the ECB and national central banks can replace the funds with cheap credit through their emergency lending programs — so long as the banks have securities to put up as collateral.

But down the road, the Cyprus precedent, even if quickly reversed, could come back to haunt eurozone policy makers by making depositors less sure about the safety of their money in case of trouble. It could also complicate creation of an EU-wide system of bank deposit insurance, part of long-term efforts to create a more robust financial system and prevent future crises.

Technically, the national deposit insurance scheme remains intact. The money is being taken as a one-time tax — little comfort to those who thought their money was safe. If another eurozone country runs into a banking crisis, a run on the banks there will be more likely.

“The damage is done,” said Louise Cooper, who heads financial research firm CooperCity in London. “Europeans now know that their savings could be used to bail out banks.”

The deal adds uncertainty for depositors and investors because it underlines to ordinary people that there is no EU-wide deposit guarantee. Insuring deposits is a national responsibility — and can only be done when the government has the money.

“Basically, Cyprus has not honored, at least as of Saturday morning, an obligation that is enshrined in EU legislation,” said Nicholas Veron, a visiting fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “It clearly has consequences because I think there is a very clear message to depositors in Europe.

“It will not affect their behavior immediately, but it might affect their behavior in a future crisis,” he said.
 

JaanaRuutu

Official Checked Star Member
I think the Germans are just tired of giving money to the countries in southern Europe. That whole part of the EU is so FUBAR.

That being said, I'm not worried. Finland is fine. That would never happen here.
 
Meh. It's hardly a eurozone thing; England's Northern Rock banks went tits up at great expense, and the rest of its banks needed bailed out with tax money (but not nationalised, obviously, because if that happened how could private board members keep giving themselves six-figure bonuses with that tax money?). If I'm not mistaken the US had a similar problem with Lehman Brothers. Cyprus has a novel approach to it (not yet sure whether I'm keen on it or not though) but it's a problem that rampant capitalism has bred worldwide.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Great question, Bob. I think the easy, general answer is no, it's not. By proposing this "tax", a bad precedent was set - especially since the Cypriot President said just a week or so ago that he would not support such a scheme. And we're seeing the results of that lie in the financial markets right now. Whether it's because of a bank failure, because a government decides to seize savings account through some nationalization scheme or they do the same thing and call it a tax, the end result is the same: savers lose their money and then lose faith in the banking system. That usually results in a run on banks and future economic collapse. As I understand it, the Eurozone is still struggling with the concept of deposit insurance. Americans have grown accustomed to the FDIC and not having to worry about their deposits (now up to $250K per account) since the early 1930's. So this probably seems weird to most of us. The FDIC is one of the things that makes the U.S. a safe haven for investors and savers. The Eurozone has been debating a similar mechanism for several years. But as far as I know, they've still not gotten a universal system in place. And if they allow this tax scheme to fly, it negates the purpose of an FDIC like mechanism anyway, which is to ensure savers that, no matter what, their savings are... well... safe. The next country to reportedly face a run on its banks if this scheme is not killed off is Spain. I sure as hell wouldn't want my money in a bank in any Eurozone country where the economy and banking system was teetering on collapse: Cyprus, Greece, Spain, Portugal or Italy.

BTW, the thing that bothers many people about what has happened in Cyprus is the fact that Cyprus is a major center of international money laundering. And a majority of those funds allegedly come from Russia: Bailing Out Oligarchs: EU Aid for Cyprus A Political Minefield for Merkel


But the Cypriots need the Russians to help fund their economy and other bailouts (or so they claim). So in order not to make the Russians mad (and especially their criminal oligarchs), they're asking average people to bail out criminal enterprises which just look like banks. And although I was in favor of the bank bailouts that took place in the U.S. back in 2008 and 2009, I now realize that bailing out the "too big to fail" institutions, and then allowing them to stand as they were, was one of the biggest financial mistakes this country has ever made. We, the taxpayers, bailed them out. And they've done very, very little to assist the nation in its economic recovery. No time to lend, but they have found time to pad their profits with things like proprietary trading and such. I still believe that the aid should have been given (to keep them and the economy from collapsing), but then each and every one of them should have been broken up into smaller, unconnected, manageable enterprises.

As for Cyprus... IMO, the majority of the pain should be felt by the international banking cabals - not hard working, average people. Ever since that fellow from Nazareth was murdered, the one who kicked over their trading tables (the forex dealers of their day) and gave the bankers a hard time a couple thousand years ago, seems like people have been kind of shy about taking on the international banking class. I mean, if they'll kill the son of God, what chance do the rest of us have against them?! :dunno:
 

rivasky

the special one
Fart jokes never get old

cchzz4ff2rt6nmv7v.jpg
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
When the Germans will get out of the European Union, so the whole Euro will be worth nothing and the Eurpean union of the 27 will go to shit. The German will certainly reintroduce their Deutsche mark. I can understand their anger of paying for other southern European countries, they are tired to be the other countries banker.
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
I have no money for American banks...
 

tartanterrier

Is somewhere outhere.
I think if Cyprus leaves the EU,then a domino affect will happen with the rest of the weaker countries,as they will fall out to.

With a referendum coming up in Scotland next year,my heart would vote independence from the UK.But as the Scottish government
wants to remain in the EU and join the Euro,then I think it's best for us to remain in the UK.Especially if this continues to be the
trend for the next couple of years.
 
Well, some countries like Finland or Germany issued a guaranty to all those with savings accounts, that their money will be safe no matter what. Of course that's only half the truth, because those Germans with money in the bank (which means almost all of them) are already being "dispossessed gradually/in a subtle way". I don't know how to say it in English. German economics scholars call it "schleichende Enteignung". It means that your money is worth less and less with every minute it's in your account. It's an easy but very sneaky principle that most Germans aren't even aware of. Because of the Euro crisis, the EZB and the German national bank have lowered and lowered the base rate (federal funds rate in the US). That gives banks the opportunity to move money around at a very low price and at a very low interest rate. For example the "Rückkaufwert" is at an all time low (I don't know the English term here either. Redemption value maybe?). But the banks hand these low rates down to their customers and their savings accounts. At the same time, inflation is up. At the moment, my sweep accounts spew out an interest rate of laughable 0.75 %. At the same time the value of the money in my sweep accounts sinks at about 1.5 to 2 % because of inflation, which means ultimately with every monthly or quarterly balancing of the accounts my money has lost between 0.75 and 1.25% of its value.
 

bobjustbob

Proud member of FreeOnes Hall Of Fame. Retired to
As Rey C. pointed out above, USA gets $250k insurance on deposits. Savings rates are next to nothing. Just as the banks can take advantage of low cost money, we can do the same things at our level. Make the best of what we have and get more buying power. Wait for sales on everyday stuff and stock up. All of those little things add up in a big way. My neighbor's car died and she decided to buy a new one. She is kicking herself in the ass only after a few months because of the loan and insurance. All she needed was wheels to get from point A to point B just like me. When my hunk of shit breaks down I'll just get another one. She will be paying a repair bill and still making those extra payments. Food for me is stocked so at times I don't have to visit a market for weeks. When everyday items go on sale I pull the trigger and don't have to worry about them for months. This method won't work with rent but everything else can be shopped and create more buying power for your money.
 
Food for me is stocked so at times I don't have to visit a market for weeks. When everyday items go on sale I pull the trigger and don't have to worry about them for months. This method won't work with rent but everything else can be shopped and create more buying power for your money.

Well, while your concept is logical, it doesn't quite apply to some European Countries. In Germany for example, most people are big on fresh food. You can't buy that in bulk and store it at home for a month because it will go bad. Especially as preserving agents in food are highly regulated here. You can of course buy all your meat at Aldi or some other discounter, which in most cases isn't the healthiest and best meat, but even if you buy some salami or mortadella pumped full of preserving agents, it won't last more than two weeks in your fridge. Buying in bulk just isn't an option with food in Germany. And some products (for example toiletries and stuff like that) are way more expensive than in the US. For example: I have to shave wet as most electronic shavers don't do it for me. A 4 pack of razor blades for my razor costs 23 dollars here, in the US you get an 8 pack for 28 dollars. Of course you can buy stuff like that in bulk. What can be pretty cheap in Germany are clothes, but those you don't buy in bulk. ;)
The costs of living (overall, but especially food, gas, energy, and water) are much higher here than in the US. There is not much room to increase the buying power of your money.
 
If you're to put your money in a euro bank, choose switzerland or Luxembourg. Otherwise, don't.
 

bobjustbob

Proud member of FreeOnes Hall Of Fame. Retired to
There is less purchasing of fresh produce here in USA. That is not a good thing for us. We should bring home more fresh produce and it is in plenty of supply. Culture of us is to get what we want when we want it. Fast and easy. We travel to your side to experience the food. Stuff we can make right here with what we can get just like you. We just don't have a culture or the patients to do it. Here is where the prervatives are pumped into canned substitutes. You don't buy that stuff there but we do. A can of crushed tomatos costs a buck that you spend $3 to make from fresh. That being said, we can still buy that fresh stuff for a the same price as you or lower but the culture/market just doesn't do it. That's why we are fat and unhealthy as a nation.
 
That's why we are fat and unhealthy as a nation.
Believe me, we're getting there. ;) With the rapidly sinking incomes and the at the same time climbing costs of living more and more people resort to canned vegetables, discounter meat and cheap sugary drinks. The price of gas has increased 180% over the last ten years, the price of electricity by 100% while salaries have only increased by about 7%. There's just not that much money left of a medium salary to buy the more healthy stuff.
 
Believe me, we're getting there. ;) .

With over a thousand McDonalds in Germany, unfortunately you're right. Exports like that don't show that we're a friend to Germany.
We aint perfect. We don't admit it often. What we lack in humility, we make it up in volume. ;)
Sorry about that. Thanks for the beer!
 
actually whenever a person "deposits" money into any bank, those funds become property of the bank by law, Cyprus was a bank haven for "dirty" money but it won't be anymore
 
Top