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Is the US a real democracy?

I don't live in the US, still the politics of it has a deep impact on the whole world (for example the oil war in Iraq)and many people around the world think that the US government is a joke. Now that Bush is ending his term. Do you think that something is going to change with Obama or McCain at office or do you think you will only exchange corporate guided puppets? In a simpler way Do you think you the people have an actual say on what goes on the country and its politics once your representatives are chosen or only do they obey to high capital interests?

Anyways I hope that something changes after your "leader (puppet in my opinion ) leaves the White House and we can have a little more peace in the world.
 
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Bush has fucked things up so monumentally that the next president is going to find it a tremendous challenge to unfuck it. The collective patience of the entire planet, which has already been severely tried, is sure to be tried still further. And yes I believe america's citizens have a say when it comes to our country, though often those wheels move painfully slowly.
 
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Are we a real democracy? Yes and no.

We are a real democracy because we have the right to vote and we elect our leaders.

We are not a democracy because, although we can voice our opinions and demands until we're blue in the face, the only ones who have a real say in whether we get anything or not are the people rich enough to fund politicians' campaigns.

This is the same for both Democrats and Republicans: everyone operates on some rich-motherfucker-with-an-agenda's dollars.
 

Facetious

Moderated
Once a Constitutional Republic, today an Oligarchic Kakistocracy :(.

It's become all the more fucked up with every successive presidential administration. I'm in the same camp of those would appraise that, by it's very design, it is destined to fail.

I agree with the following model. Forgive the redundancy, but the man asked the question :


THE CYCLE OF DEMOCRACY

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."
America, we are now, IMO, "from apathy to dependence", of the democracy cycle with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.
It's all relative, I regret to say. The 232 years of which this nation has been in existence is but a millisecond in real terms, for all we are is dust in the wind. No one single man or political entity itself is solely responsible for the current state of affairs. It's erosion . . . oxidation, if you will. everything has a life cycle. Think of all of the world's nations as a card within the deck. It get shuffled periodically, OK ?

Also http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Horribly saddening


YMMV :dunno:
 

That link is like a slice of a bygone era.Back from the red menace days of McCarthyism.The person that wrote that was just a right winger trying to use the threat of communism for their own agenda.I read about him a little at Wik and thats what I got about him.Lets look at what the link lists as the communists goals were, at least according to him as late as 1963.

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
Good thing we accepted coexistence IMO

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
I don't know about capitulate but again good thing we didn't engage in atomic war isn't it?

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
That never happened.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
This also never happened.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
Not sure what loans he is even talking about,but again don't think that happened.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
Never happened.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
This did happen,that damn Nixon recognizing a billion people instead of just Taiwan.:rolleyes:

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
Eventually the wall came down,germany was united and the communists lost control of East germany.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
Geez lol,Thankfully both sides agreed to the test ban treaty and stopped testing.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
Yeah the UN should have only allowed American satellites in.:rolleyes:

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
The old one world govt dominated by the atheists devils of communism or some other secret dark group line.This one is around in various forms to this day.

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
Not sure when this was but I guess it was a time when the communist party was still outlawed.What a great idea ban outlaw a political group for nothing but their ideals.Put some in jail which we did or blacklist them.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
These survive to this day,people still getting in trouble for refusing to take loyalty oaths.Here is a link to a very recent story of a teacher(a pacifist quaker) fired for not submitting to such an oath.This is a leftover from the days of the red manace scares as story points out.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-oath2-2008may02,0,6280956.story

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
No idea what this was even about.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
Did they "capture" one.If so which one?

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
Yeah lets bring back segreagated schools and Jim Crow laws and repeal the voting rights act.







The rest of these are just as outlandish and ridiculous as the previous ones,some even more so.I will not go into the rest one by one but have comments on a couple.


17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
Do we thank the commies for freeones?:1orglaugh

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Yeah that was a bad idea LOL.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.


Aren't we so glad that he was there to tell us of what the commies were up to?Geez what a load of BS that list is and was.:eek:
 

jedi007gotham

Closed Account
That link is like a slice of a bygone era.Back from the red menace days of McCarthyism.The person that wrote that was just a right winger trying to use the threat of communism for their own agenda.I read about him a little at Wik and thats what I got about him.Lets look at what the link lists as the communists goals were, at least according to him as late as 1963.

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
Good thing we accepted coexistence IMO

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
I don't know about capitulate but again good thing we didn't engage in atomic war isn't it?

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
That never happened.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
This also never happened.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
Not sure what loans he is even talking about,but again don't think that happened.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
Never happened.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
This did happen,that damn Nixon recognizing a billion people instead of just Taiwan.:rolleyes:

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
Eventually the wall came down,germany was united and the communists lost control of East germany.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
Geez lol,Thankfully both sides agreed to the test ban treaty and stopped testing.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
Yeah the UN should have only allowed American satellites in.:rolleyes:

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
The old one world govt dominated by the atheists devils of communism or some other secret dark group line.This one is around in various forms to this day.

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
Not sure when this was but I guess it was a time when the communist party was still outlawed.What a great idea ban outlaw a political group for nothing but their ideals.Put some in jail which we did or blacklist them.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
These survive to this day,people still getting in trouble for refusing to take loyalty oaths.Here is a link to a very recent story of a teacher(a pacifist quaker) fired for not submitting to such an oath.This is a leftover from the days of the red manace scares as story points out.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-oath2-2008may02,0,6280956.story

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
No idea what this was even about.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
Did they "capture" one.If so which one?

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
Yeah lets bring back segreagated schools and Jim Crow laws and repeal the voting rights act.







The rest of these are just as outlandish and ridiculous as the previous ones,some even more so.I will not go into the rest one by one but have comments on a couple.


17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
Do we thank the commies for freeones?:1orglaugh

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Yeah that was a bad idea LOL.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.


Aren't we so glad that he was there to tell us of what the commies were up to?Geez what a load of BS that list is and was.:eek:


I havent really had time to read through the whole thing, but they did take control of our schools, our presses, our entertainment and student protests. Unfortunately they have also largely taken control of the democratic party...


The US was never meant to be a democracy anyways though, at least not beyond the local or sometimes state level.... it was instead meant to be a republic and people (including policy makers), for whatever reason, often fail
to see the distinction even though it is essential for making our system of federalism work and federalism itself is essential for our nation's stability and liberty
 
S

sputnikgirl

Guest
Nope

The definition of "failed states" is hardly scientific. But they share some primary characteristics. They are unable or unwilling to protect their citizens from violence and perhaps even destruction. They regard themselves as beyond the reach of domestic or international law, hence free to carry out aggression and violence. And if they have democratic forms, they suffer from a serious "democratic deficit" that deprives their formal democratic institutions of real substance. One of the hardest tasks that anyone can undertake, and among the most important, is to look honestly in the mirror. If we allow ourselves to do so, we should have little difficulty in finding the characteristics of "failed states" right at home.

It takes discipline not to recognise the elements of truth in historian Arno Mayer’s immediate post-9/11 observation that since 1947, "America has been the chief perpetrator of ‘pre-emptive’ state terror" and innumerable other ‘rogue’ actions," causing immense harm, "always in the name of democracy, liberty and justice."
 
a democracy where everyone gets a say and all decisions are made by group consensus?

no way.

a democracy like that of the Greeks, where all the decisions were made by a group of the rich and powerful elite (a departure from the old days when it was just one guy that controlled everything, instead of 60) and the rest of the population are slaves?

that sounds a little closer.
 
bring back the whig party. those guys know how to Partay!
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
a democracy where everyone gets a say and all decisions are made by group consensus?

no way.

a democracy like that of the Greeks, where all the decisions were made by a group of the rich and powerful elite (a departure from the old days when it was just one guy that controlled everything, instead of 60) and the rest of the population are slaves?

that sounds a little closer.

Yep! :glugglug:

We have no say in shit in this country anymore! Hell we don't really have much say in who gets "elected" into office. That is all up to the fuckin electoral college. So what if you want mccain over obama or obama to run instead of hillary or some other wack job not mentioned to get the position. Your not gonna get who you want. And if you do, they're not gonna deliver what they "promise".

Its all a game to the rich fucks anyway. Why else would they spend millions of dollars campaigning for a job that pays less than half a million a year. They'll make what? 4 million max off 2 terms? While they spend 10's of millions in campaign money. It's fuck ridiculous! Its all about popularity and who's got the most fuckin money anymore in this country. And that goes for everything not just politics!
 
too true, legzman.

get these welfare mooches out of office! yes, I said it. think about it, the president doesn't have a real "job." He gets paid to be the president. same goes for everyone in the government. That's what taxes are all about. We pay for the government... but everyone cries foul when the citizen's own money goes back to them. How does that make sense? wow. you are going to tell me that it's wrong for me to get some of my own money back?

Sure, some people are getting it that don't pay for it sometimes... and some people are getting it that don't pay for it all the time! Let's throw ALL these bums back. Fuck it, I'd rather just keep my own money and if I need something, then I'll buy it myself. wow! a capitalist economy, a free market! Who would have thought?
 

Kingfisher

Here Zombie, Zombie, Zombie...
Is the US a real democracy?
No.

Or we'd be voting with a popular vote, and not these superdelegates, and electoral colleges. Funny, I never did get an admission form from any of those colleges.
 

Facetious

Moderated
Its all a game to the rich fucks anyway. Why else would they spend millions of dollars campaigning for a job that pays less than half a million a year. They'll make what? 4 million max off 2 terms?
Oh, more than that ! Much more ! They get into office exclusively to cater to the special interests, which pay out over a lifetime (swiss account depositry lol !)

Robbers ! Barons ! Pirates ! I say !! :glugglug:
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
Oh, more than that ! Much more ! They get into office exclusively to cater to the special interests, which pay out over a lifetime (swiss account depositry lol !)

Robbers ! Barons ! Pirates ! I say !! :glugglug:

Oh yea, what was I thinking!
 

Facetious

Moderated
Aren't we so glad that he was there to tell us of what the commies were up to?Geez what a load of BS that list is and was.:eek:

NOT B.S. ! It's dependent on ones' ideology.

OK, so you're opposed ;) Fine & Dandy.
But the idea that it's not true or in fact underway is entirely subjective.
 
Not a very good democracy. The President is basically an elected emperor. But your country's freedom of speech and Constitution are very impressive.
 
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