Ford Motor posts record losses

Goodbye American auto industry and pretty much all other manufacturing for that matter. So how long before we start buying cars from China?
 
Goodbye American auto industry and pretty much all other manufacturing for that matter. So how long before we start buying cars from China?

Pretty much my thinking. While we're all out spending money on wheels that keep spinning when we stop at stop signs, the maunufacturing in the US is all but gone. It's been said, that like poor nations in the past, we export the raw materials and resources, and, (China), makes the products.

This is an excellent look at the future failing of the US economy;
You can watch the whole broadcast on line;

Is Walmart Good for America?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/
 
Goodbye American auto industry and pretty much all other manufacturing for that matter. So how long before we start buying cars from China?
Not very long.... I've heard the Chinese are looking at the US as an export market.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that the US automakers (and US lawmakers) brought this upon themselves.

The day I saw a major US auto company advertise "fuel economy" rather than it's traditional characteristics of "macho/rugged/speed/comfort" as it's prime selling point - was the day I realised that the US auto market was both changing and doomed.

And US lawmakers haven't helped it any with the way they control the economy. People scream about "job losses" - and in the same breath dismiss how market competition eats into profit margins and sustainability. "Government mandated" conditions and programs are an ever increasing burden on corporations ---- and it's ONLY AMERICAN CORPORATIONS. You think Toyota pays as much out of it's pocket to the US government as Ford does?

The sad fact is that when I present such an argument - most people would clamor for "heavily taxing Toyota while giving Ford a break" ... whilst forgetting that this "solution" is as anti-thetical to the free market as the "problem they claimed to be fixing in the first place".

Sad? Yes.
Depresseing? Yes. Ford is am American icon.
Un-expected? No way. Ford deserved what it got *

Ford is losing out because it's products no longer meet market demands. Ford is losing out because customers don't want it's products anymore. Ford is losing out because of unsound business policies - it needs to examine why people are buying their competitors products and not theirs.

Simply 'appealing' to American 'patriotism' won't work anymore (as Chrysler and GM will discover soon enough).

* : But it's not entierly it's fault. US government strangulation of the free market has ensured that there is no "real" competition ... but rather "unequal" competition between rivals. The end result for the past so many decades was a "frustrated American consumer". The minute overseas manufacturers like Toyota and Mitsubishi made a niche in the US market - American manufacturers have struggled to catch up ... not simply because their products don't always match their opponents .... but because of other issues.


cheers,
 
This is an excellent look at the future failing of the US economy;
You can watch the whole broadcast on line;

Is Walmart Good for America?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

A. Why shouldn't the American Consumer be afforded cheaper deals on the things s/he wants to buy?
B. Isn't the essence of 'the free market' - something "we loudly claim to adhere to" - the chance to 'afford choice' ?
C. The "failing US Economy" has less to do with private corporation success/failure as much as it has to do with FEDERAL government failure with regards to it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL ROLE in "monetary supply", taxation and SPENDING. The US Feds abuse of the monetary supply cannot last forever. People think I'm a "crackpot" for urging them to invest in "solid liquidity" - like gold.

'Tis but a few of my thoughts on the matter....


cheers,
 
While I think the American auto manufactures have been pretty stupid the last 20 or 30 years and in some part deserve what they get because of the dumb decisions they have made, them and especially other manufactures that are non-auto related haven't been playing on a level playing field for a long time as a result of the free market and open trade. What free traders almost never want to admit is that in the end it just reduces the majority of everybody to an equally bad position around the world while justifying it by pointing to the few people it's lives make relatively better. It's not always easy to see it because it doesn't happen overnight. Free trade doesn't make people better as much as reducing everybody to the lowest common denominator when all the companies compete in the race for the bottom. It's sad that part of the reason the auto manufactures are going down, besides some of the lack of forethought on their part (like maybe they should have planned on fuel efficient vehicles a long time ago), is the fact they were one of the handful of places normal everyday working class people could go and get a good job with great benefits. That's why I wondered about how long it will take for China to get cars coming in here in any great quantity. Toyota and other foreign manufactures might be on top now, but I wonder what will happen when they will be severely undercut in prices. Of course there will be people who will complain that they should have stayed competitive, (probably by utilization of the same source of cheap labor and the regulations that don’t do anything for pollution, safety, or future well being of the people that work there that the other countries use) and the cycle will continue.
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
Fords suck gas = to fuckin expensive to drive = buy smaller import! :D
 
Ford, GM and Chrysler are all guilty of bad decisions. Even today, they all sell cars and trucks based on some romantic past ideal, of Chevy Tough, or Dada da da dumb, Dodge Ram, HIT IT! I wondered in the 70's what fake air scoops on the side of the car and top of the hood were for. And 30 years later still see that fantasized ideal of the dream car being sold. As salaries in the auto industry went up, the desire of big execs to lay off employees, ship jobs to Mexico, and claim huge bonuses for themselves for saving the company money increased. On the other hand Japanese and European entries were a lot more gas conscious with the stronger emphasis on safety, quality and design. There has been no long term vision of US automakers of how to conserve limited natural resources such as gas, and as soon as the price at the pump goes up, they face an almost certain highspeed crash.

(It is also notable on the salary part of it, that the top paid US execs often make several thousand times the salary of the floor sweepers. Home Depot's CFO? made $140 million in his 6 years ruining the company, and was given a $210 million parachute to leave early. The same thing with K-Mart's top guy. In Japan the margin of high and low salaries is more like 10:1 or 15:1).

While I think they've tried to improve, there is still a long way to go. Now maybe they're more willing to stop the assembly line to hear a worker's point of view on a better part installation method, but their foreign competitors have also improved. The problem is the last time in the early 80's when gas hit an all time high breaking $2 a gallon, they learned absolutely nothing, and changed their long term outlook not at all. But then again, the people making the decisions affecting the rest of us really didn't have to. Their parachutes work just fine.
 
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Torre82

Moderator \ Jannie
Staff member
I'm quite pleased. The day of wondering if the light is green or red 'cuz I cant see a foot past the big frickin' environmental hazard SUV ... will hopefully come to an end in the next decade. Of course with global warming as it is.. how long do we have, ANYWAY?

:shrug: Gimme a 4 cylinder go-kart-wannabe Toyota anyday. As long as I can get up to 60 miles per hour.. and at least half of that 60/30 miles per gallon.. I'm doing alright.
 

bigbadbrody

Banned
Fords suck gas = to fuckin expensive to drive = buy smaller import! :D

Fords are horrible!

Ford stands for two things - Fix Or Repair Daily or Found On Road Dead

Personally, I would never ever touch a ford, even with a 20 foot pole


I purchase a 2007 Toyota Tacoma Pick-up Truck for $25,915 and a friend of mine bought a 2007 Ford F-250 for $35,525 on the same day. We both keep our trucks in immaculate condition, repairs and everything a done regularly. We both keep a file with every single file and receipt that has to do with our trucks.

Two years later we both decide to sell our trucks and purchase sports cars, on the exact same day.

I will be able to sell my Japanese brand Toyota for example $15,000, losing $10,915, where as my friend will only get for example $20,000 for his Ford, losing $15,525.

So what does this show you? this shows you that American autos, are a waste of money and the return you get on them after selling them is horrible, they depreciate in value so much faster than an import
 

Legzman

what the fuck you lookin at?
Fords are horrible!

Ford stands for two things - Fix Or Repair Daily or Found On Road Dead

Don't forget
Fucked Over Rebuilt Dodge
and
Fancy Oil Recycling Device
 
I have a 97 Ford Taurus and it's been really good to me, 1500 dollars, has taken me all over the place in the past couple of years, Chicago, New York, Philly, DC to Buffalo several times.


I hate those god damn commercials. Hate them.


The wage structure in America is mind bogglingly unfair. The richest minority can keep adding to their multi billion dollar empires when the vast majority of people that work for them can barely afford to pay the rent or mortgage or buy the pills for the various medical conditions they have earned from their work at said corporation. Of course America has a massive Middle Class, but they are watching the gulf between them and the top dogs ever-widen, and nobody even seems to care about those nameless faceless multi millions who dream of their children someday being anywhere close to as comfortable as even the lower middle classes.

I suppose it is like this in a lot of places around the world; but much less so in Europe, and as you say, much less so in Japan. You'd have thought in America, there's ten times as much money to go around, but the vast proportion of America's excess wealth goes to the top couple of percent, and I think that's part of the reason why some view Americans as greedy/selfish in other places: the actions and extreme wealth and excess of the top 2% - and the fact that society tends to promote that kind of excessive lifestyle, a nd so many young people today that I know, emulate the five-car, mansion, beach property, high rolling, expensive jewellery, and as you said, spinning rims lifestyle.

The one thing though as you've sort of mentioned that inevitably leads to downfall of such a structure, is that it is based on "me me me" and money grabbing instant gratification capitalism, profit now is always valued over long term security and stability, and so when everyone in your organization has this "now, me, money" mentality, your company is doomed to pay too much money to its high level execs and CEOs and to make bad long term decisions. You'd have thought American companies would have tried to emulate German and Japanese car companies by now, which are always on the cutting edge and ahead of the game. People love to be patriotic here more than anywhere, but only so long as they're not being screwed over in the name of patriotism, and when you take a similarly priced American car and foreign car and look at what you're paying for petrol, maintenance, and what you get for your money... eventually even the most die hard patriots will worry about putting food on the table and getting the best car for their cash.

I don't complain much because it's ridiculous that petrol used to be so so cheap in America, but no-one's life has been more negatively affected by the gas increases than me. Three, four times a year, we would take off and drive all over this beautiful country, from top to bottom coast to coast and all between. We would sleep in the car because we fairly poor and couldn't afford hotels but still wanted to go. Now any given trip costs twice as much, and with the cost of flying home to England also inexplicably high... my free, world travelling lifestyle has been severely reduced in the last couple of years.

Fox

In the 80's Chrysler produced some strange little cars as the American way to "Beat the Pump", and depicted a stereotypical Japanese businessman punching a gas pump. Likely they wouldn't get away with that now, but the theme remains the same, an attempt to advertise national pride as a selling point for a product. Marlboro cigarettes have little to do with cowboys really, so why are pick up trucks associated with country farms, the great outdoors, mountain ranges, and cattle ranches. Most of them, (and SUV's), spend most of their time in the parking lot of suburban shopping malls. While big business and politics are selling out the average US consumer in favor of big profits, the condition of the American worker is not very good these days. Marx said, "Religion is the opiate of the masses", and I think there's a very similiar indication that consumer spending, personal debt and shopping therapy has taken religion's place.

The 80's Chrysler cars were fragile and built very poorly. I bought a Toyota in 1981, 5 speed with A/C for about $1200 less at $5400 than the Chrysler, "smaller", car which I think only got about 24mpg. I was able to get 44mpg on the highway. I also bought a Honda CRX SE, also getting mid 40's with the A/C blasting. Of course those are very small cars, not for everyone but serve my point well.

Auto company executives reward each other with bonuses, and as long as they can tantalize the consumer in some way to sell inventory, they, (like the US energy policy over the past 50 years), make no progress forward. I think recent findings that cigarette companies have increased the nicotine content of cigarettes proportionally to the number, of "How to quit", ads makes a similiar point. (and that is still advertising a brand name).

While building bigger and bigger cars and trucks, Ford bought Jaguar and Chrysler merged with Mercedes. My understanding is that MB has regrets about the deal which I think were status events for the US makers. It was like the nerdy High School kid who happens to be friendly with the voluptuous cheerleader next door and takes every opportunity to be seen with her at school. :2 cents:
 
Can't believe anybody is surprised by this. Ford has sucked for years. The Taurus,Windstar,Escort,Tempo,and Festiva are all terrible cars put out by Ford.
 
Fords are horrible!

Ford stands for two things - Fix Or Repair Daily or Found On Road Dead

Personally, I would never ever touch a ford, even with a 20 foot pole


I purchase a 2007 Toyota Tacoma Pick-up Truck for $25,915 and a friend of mine bought a 2007 Ford F-250 for $35,525 on the same day. We both keep our trucks in immaculate condition, repairs and everything a done regularly. We both keep a file with every single file and receipt that has to do with our trucks.

Two years later we both decide to sell our trucks and purchase sports cars, on the exact same day.

I will be able to sell my Japanese brand Toyota for example $15,000, losing $10,915, where as my friend will only get for example $20,000 for his Ford, losing $15,525.

So what does this show you? this shows you that American autos, are a waste of money and the return you get on them after selling them is horrible, they depreciate in value so much faster than an import

So,your Toyota lost ~42% of its price,and and your friends Ford lost ~44% of its price.
I don`t quite get it,what`s your point?That Ford is more expensive to buy?


Why do you think Toyota can sell its products so much cheaper than Ford -and make profit- while Ford sells many of its vehicles with prices too low to be profitable,yet the price tag is still way above what the japanese competitors ask for their products?
They are both American made vehicles you know,China or Japan and their labor costs etc.has nothing to do with it.

The reason is UAW*and the healthcare costs,huge salaries,pensions and other benefits compared to other similar jobs in America "big three" has to pay for their workers.

When a Japanese -or European- car manufacturer builds plants to US,they never go to northern states,where UAW is strong,but build their plants to south and make very sure they don`t hire UAW workers.This way labor costs are only a fraction compared to American companies and aggressive prices and big profits go hand in hand.


Yes,part of their problem is that GM and Ford leaned on SUVs and pick ups too long and neglected passenger cars.
Thats because
1.pick ups and later SUVs have always been one of their specialty,where they`ve really been good at,and
2.because these light trucks are much more profitable than modern passenger cars(development and manufacturing costs are a lot lower,yet people are ready to pay more for them than smaller passenger cars).
Car manufacturers(even Japanese) don`t make good -if any- profit from the smallest passenger cars because of high development costs and lower retail prices,unless they are made in some country with very low labor costs.

Thats the reason why they like to make big cars in Detroit;
1.they know how to do them and
2.small cars would struggle to be profitable anyway as long as UAW workers would build them.The smallest cars aren`t profitable no matter who would build them in the US.


China does not play part in this - at least yet.They are trying with cars too,but being comepetitive in car busines in the western countries is not as easy as making some cheaper and more simple bulk products.Some day they will come,but as for now,Chinese car companies have plenty of problems themselfs.


*(for those who don`t know,UAW=United Auto Workers,by far the strongest labor union in the world,which keeps GM,Ford and Chrysler on their knees)
 
So,your Toyota lost ~42% of its price,and and your friends Ford lost ~44% of its price.
I don`t quite get it,what`s your point?That Ford is more expensive to buy?


Why do you think Toyota can sell its products so much cheaper than Ford -and make profit- while Ford sells many of its vehicles with prices too low to be profitable,yet the price tag is still way above what the japanese competitors ask for their products?
They are both American made vehicles you know,China or Japan and their labor costs etc.has nothing to do with it.

The reason is UAW*and the healthcare costs,huge salaries,pensions and other benefits compared to other similar jobs in America "big three" has to pay for their workers.

When a Japanese -or European- car manufacturer builds plants to US,they never go to northern states,where UAW is strong,but build their plants to south and make very sure they don`t hire UAW workers.This way labor costs are only a fraction compared to American companies and aggressive prices and big profits go hand in hand.


Yes,part of their problem is that GM and Ford leaned on SUVs and pick ups too long and neglected passenger cars.
Thats because
1.pick ups and later SUVs have always been one of their specialty,where they`ve really been good at,and
2.because these light trucks are much more profitable than modern passenger cars(development and manufacturing costs are a lot lower,yet people are ready to pay more for them than smaller passenger cars).
Car manufacturers(even Japanese) don`t make good -if any- profit from the smallest passenger cars because of high development costs and lower retail prices,unless they are made in some country with very low labor costs.

Thats the reason why they like to make big cars in Detroit;
1.they know how to do them and
2.small cars would struggle to be profitable anyway as long as UAW workers would build them.The smallest cars aren`t profitable no matter who would build them in the US.


China does not play part in this - at least yet.They are trying with cars too,but being comepetitive in car busines in the western countries is not as easy as making some cheaper and more simple bulk products.Some day they will come,but as for now,Chinese car companies have plenty of problems themselfs.


*(for those who don`t know,UAW=United Auto Workers,by far the strongest labor union in the world,which keeps GM,Ford and Chrysler on their knees)


Yes, good points.

A consumer is faced with a lot of choices and there was always a market for quality in an economical car. This was apparent with the huge success of VW in the US in the early 60's. Sadly I also think the culture in the US is too concerned with, new, bit, and conservation of resources isn't a household word. I think too much ego, (or lack of), sells a lot of cars in the US, maybe on the image people hope to adopt by buying a particlar model advertising has integrated into the culture. I remember several articles I was sent about 3 years ago, concerning US automakers and their proposed designs for retro muscle cars based on some past success with PTCruiser and other recent models. GM, Ford and Chrysler all had design plans, and bang, the gas hit $3 a gallon. Had their design plans in 2003 been for quality economical cars they just wouldn't have a problem selling them now.
 
Yes, good points.

A consumer is faced with a lot of choices and there was always a market for quality in an economical car. This was apparent with the huge success of VW in the US in the early 60's. Sadly I also think the culture in the US is too concerned with, new, bit, and conservation of resources isn't a household word. I think too much ego, (or lack of), sells a lot of cars in the US, maybe on the image people hope to adopt by buying a particlar model advertising has integrated into the culture. I remember several articles I was sent about 3 years ago, concerning US automakers and their proposed designs for retro muscle cars based on some past success with PTCruiser and other recent models. GM, Ford and Chrysler all had design plans, and bang, the gas hit $3 a gallon. Had their design plans in 2003 been for quality economical cars they just wouldn't have a problem selling them now.

The huge success of VW is a bit relative thing.It was a huge success for a foreign car in the US at that time,but it wasn`t excactly a threat to the domestic cars.
Ford sells something like 750,000 F-series pick up trucks per year(if I remember correct),and this vehicle has no significance outside North America.I don`t think VW sold that many Beetles in America during those ~20-25 years it was offered.

But I see your point and I think you may be right.Then again I also think that it wouldn`t help Ford much to build that thing,because American consumers wouldn`t buy a premium priced compact car if it has a Ford badge on it.

But put a Volvo badge on it and sell it across the street at Volvo dealer... ;)

Then again,VW is still there with Rabbit,Jetta etc.I can`t see the huge success in America now....

The sudden rice of fuel price is ofcourse the thing that drove Ford and GM into these troubles they are now struggling with.But it`s so easy to be smart now and tell them what they should have done years ago.Back then it looked like big SUVs and pick ups were just gaining more and more market share.
It would have been bad busines for them to try selling cars people didn`t want at the time -especially if people were asking more and more the kind of cars they can make with good profit(in opposite to those you suggest they should have made back then,which they couldn`t make with as good profit).


I don`t think this retro styling thing is bad busines for domestic makes.Thats the one thing Japanese don`t have;heritage,nostalgic memories in peoples minds and all that.Given the problems they are dealing with,I think it`s ok if this is the way they can sell their products.
Japanese manufacturers did it in their home market already in the early 90`s.
Ofcourse those were a little different kind of cars as the cars they had in Japan in the old days were a bit different than the US cars back then.

Retro muscle cars with a Ford badge on them = Mustang in different versions,which I think is selling better than any other passenger car with a Ford badge in the US at the moment.

But yeah,they should find a way to sell more economical cars and make profit out of it.Otherwise the future really doesn`t look good for them.
Though nothing helps if they can`t find some solution with UAW to cut costs.
Otherwise none of the UAW workers wil have jobs in the future.Or well,I quess Chrysler is looking a little better than the big ones.
 
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