Firefox 3.5 Final Released

I **** to side with Microsoft, but I kind of have to on that one. That's one of the things I never got. If it's their product I don't see why they shouldn't be able to give it away with their other programs. It would be like telling a car manufacturer that they either couldn't put their own radios or air conditioners in their own cars or they had to give every manufacture out there the ability to put them in each and every vehicle they make.

My problem is the lack of choice, as in, I as a consumer should be able to choose what I want, not have it outlined for me. I see what you mean with the analogy, but here's my take. IE is a bloated, proprietary, non-standard conforming browser. The World Wide Web consortium sets the guidelines for how a browser should render and deal with web pages, and IE is the only major browser that doesn't conform. It's tantamount to all of the major car companies building their own proprietary transmission, all of which worked differently, and with varying degrees of efficacy. It all boils down to, sure they can put their browser preloaded into the OS, I have no issue with that, but not offering the choice of browsers doesn't make sense, as I'm the consumer, it's my choice with my money.

There is a program called Firefox Preloader which loads on bootup , installing many of the files required for when you want to use Firefox.Speeds things up a little.

Yeah, I've used that little diddy before, and it does make a nice little improvement, although if you're on a slower machine it doesn't do quite as much
 
There is a program called Firefox Preloader which loads on bootup , installing many of the files required for when you want to use Firefox.Speeds things up a little.

Common and well known bug. The developers are working on it. Check the Mozilla support forums and it's LOADED with this issue. For me, it keeps corrupting my add-ons so they quit working. I have rolled back until the next bug-fix and I'll try it again.


Thanks both, that's reassuring, and I'll check it out :hatsoff:
 
Considering that's about 70-75% of the computing market, a lot of people.



Is that from a cold boot, (first time running it after starting the computer), or warm (second time or later)? I'll have to see if I can replicate that, and let you know what I find.



Actually, you'd be surprised. The average user of a home computer doesn't even know that IE is a browser. They don't know the meaning of the word. To them, when they see that little IE logo, they think it's the Internet. As in, they literally think they're opening a program called "the Internet". I was on a research team in college that worked with a larger national research team in the field of computer science that examined the role of age, language, and education level on peoples abilities to use a computer and moreover explain how to perform tasks on a modern computer. Out of our study of about 25,000 people, less than 10% could correctly explain what a browser was, and how it related to the Internet. Even more shocking, (for me personally), was that only 8% of the people we tested could explain how to download and install a program from a website successfully.

I think you're vastly overestimating the average users ability. You might not realize it, but the member of this board are actually among the top 15% or so percent of computer users in terms of knowledge of usability.

These debates can go around and around, so I won't argue with you.

Well one thing I think that we can agree on is that the 8% you mention seems to install software with a malware payload successfully. I have seen/cleaned too many HijackThis logs to not see it.
 
These debates can go around and around, so I won't argue with you.

Well one thing I think that we can agree on is that the 8% you mention seems to install software with a malware payload successfully. I have seen/cleaned too many HijackThis logs to not see it.

I think the fact that they get to malware is evidence of their ignorance.
 
I think the fact that they get to malware is evidence of their ignorance.

I never said they were smart users.

My problem is the lack of choice, as in, I as a consumer should be able to choose what I want, not have it outlined for me. I see what you mean with the analogy, but here's my take. IE is a bloated, proprietary, non-standard conforming browser. The World Wide Web consortium sets the guidelines for how a browser should render and deal with web pages, and IE is the only major browser that doesn't conform. It's tantamount to all of the major car companies building their own proprietary transmission, all of which worked differently, and with varying degrees of efficacy. It all boils down to, sure they can put their browser preloaded into the OS, I have no issue with that, but not offering the choice of browsers doesn't make sense, as I'm the consumer, it's my choice with my money.

You mean like having a choice of which browser to install/use when you do a clean install of the OS? Or having multiple browsers preloaded?

Just coming from a software development/support standpoint... Maybe one of the reasons they don't incorporate a 3rd party browser into their OS is for support reasons. Even though Microsoft did not develop the Gecko engine, if MS added Firefox into their OS they would get a lot of support calls should anything go wrong with it. I.e. Flash not working, pages not rendering correctly, bookmarks missing, bad extensions, etc. And because it came pre-installed, these average users that you spoke of will automatically think it's part of the OS. So why not call MS first?

Maybe it has to do with legal reasons. I'm just making this up so don't take this too seriously... Let's say that you have incorporated someone else software into your OS to create a better experience for the enduser. Now lets say that this program is discovered to contain an exploit that causes sensitive user data to be ******. It allows your OS to transmit data over the internet in way that would never have occurred had you not integrated it. Now what do you do? Wait for the 3rd party dev to patch their own software ? Do you create your own patch to have the 3rd party software removed or disabled? What do you do about the users that already lost data? Who will they try and sue first?

These are a couple of reasons that the company I work for doesn't integrate 3rd party credit card processing software into our Point of Sale system. We have zero control over the code/quality control that goes into someone else's product.

Sure MS could rewrite their EULA to state that they are not responsible for any problems caused by 3rd party software bundled with their OS. Hell, MS could create their own in-house Q&A team to test the 3rd party software with each new release before adding it to the MS patch Tuesdays. But why go through all the trouble?
 
I never said they were smart users.

I wasn't making a comment about their intelligence. I'm saying that they are ignorant in regards to using computers properly, or in an informed way. It has nothing to do with how "smart" they are, and everything to do with the fact that they just don't know/haven't learned how to use a computer the way you or I have.


You mean like having a choice of which browser to install/use when you do a clean install of the OS? Or having multiple browsers preloaded?

Just coming from a software development/support standpoint... Maybe one of the reasons they don't incorporate a 3rd party browser into their OS is for support reasons. Even though Microsoft did not develop the Gecko engine, if MS added Firefox into their OS they would get a lot of support calls should anything go wrong with it. I.e. Flash not working, pages not rendering correctly, bookmarks missing, bad extensions, etc. And because it came pre-installed, these average users that you spoke of will automatically think it's part of the OS. So why not call MS first?

Maybe it has to do with legal reasons. I'm just making this up so don't take this too seriously... Let's say that you have incorporated someone else software into your OS to create a better experience for the enduser. Now lets say that this program is discovered to contain an exploit that causes sensitive user data to be ******. It allows your OS to transmit data over the internet in way that would never have occurred had you not integrated it. Now what do you do? Wait for the 3rd party dev to patch their own software ? Do you create your own patch to have the 3rd party software removed or disabled? What do you do about the users that already lost data? Who will they try and sue first?

These are a couple of reasons that the company I work for doesn't integrate 3rd party credit card processing software into our Point of Sale system. We have zero control over the code/quality control that goes into someone else's product.

Sure MS could rewrite their EULA to state that they are not responsible for any problems caused by 3rd party software bundled with their OS. Hell, MS could create their own in-house Q&A team to test the 3rd party software with each new release before adding it to the MS patch Tuesdays. But why go through all the trouble?

What I meant is that Microsoft should offer the choice preloaded. For example, if I go order a computer from Dell's website preloaded with Vista, I can already modify what programs are pre-installed, and browsers should be included in that. As a consumer, I have the right to choose for the money I'm paying.

I see what you're saying with the rest of your comment, but let me try to explain a bit here. Microsoft already assumes the risk of a lack of support or security exploits with the software they already regularly pre-install on Windows PCs. They do the same with drivers, which was one of the reasons why Vistas launch was so crappy, there weren't drivers to allow hardware to work with Vista for months after launch, and Microsoft dragged their feet in pressuring companies to do so. Hell, IE versions 4-8 still have a critical security flaw that was discovered almost a year ago, so not even Microsoft can provide perfect support. Getting more to the point, the reason why giving the consumers a choice is beneficial to both Microsoft and the user is because if the user experiences problems, specifically with Firefox, they can find answers from Mozilla, or the open source community as whole. The entire Internet becomes a support tool for getting things working in the event that they don't. Microsoft would benefit from this 1) by ditching the effort to push only Microsoft goods onto customers, thereby improving their PR image, and 2)Continued growth of the user base as people enjoy the ability to choose exactly what software they want pre-loaded onto their computers.
 
I wasn't making a comment about their intelligence. I'm saying that they are ignorant in regards to using computers properly, or in an informed way. It has nothing to do with how "smart" they are, and everything to do with the fact that they just don't know/haven't learned how to use a computer the way you or I have.




What I meant is that Microsoft should offer the choice preloaded. For example, if I go order a computer from Dell's website preloaded with Vista, I can already modify what programs are pre-installed, and browsers should be included in that. As a consumer, I have the right to choose for the money I'm paying.

I see what you're saying with the rest of your comment, but let me try to explain a bit here. Microsoft already assumes the risk of a lack of support or security exploits with the software they already regularly pre-install on Windows PCs. They do the same with drivers, which was one of the reasons why Vistas launch was so crappy, there weren't drivers to allow hardware to work with Vista for months after launch, and Microsoft dragged their feet in pressuring companies to do so. Hell, IE versions 4-8 still have a critical security flaw that was discovered almost a year ago, so not even Microsoft can provide perfect support. Getting more to the point, the reason why giving the consumers a choice is beneficial to both Microsoft and the user is because if the user experiences problems, specifically with Firefox, they can find answers from Mozilla, or the open source community as whole. The entire Internet becomes a support tool for getting things working in the event that they don't. Microsoft would benefit from this 1) by ditching the effort to push only Microsoft goods onto customers, thereby improving their PR image, and 2)Continued growth of the user base as people enjoy the ability to choose exactly what software they want pre-loaded onto their computers.


I see what you are saying. This is true with the OEM OS licenses that MFG's like Dell HP, etc sell with their machines. They will bundle all sort of 3rd party software but, nothing is bundled with a non OEM vanilla version of Windows. Hell MS won't even support these OEM builds, you have to call the MFG instead. Perhaps vendors such as Dell should offer the extra browsers as an option to their builds?


Microsoft would benefit from this 1) by ditching the effort to push only Microsoft goods onto customers, thereby improving their PR image,, and 2)Continued growth of the user base as people enjoy the ability to choose exactly what software they want pre-loaded onto their computers.

I have always found it peculiar that Windows users feel this way and OS X users don't.
 
Sorry my post is all F'ED. It's hard to post from my phone. My works network filter this site.. lol

I see what you're saying with the rest of your comment, but let me try to explain a bit here. Microsoft already assumes the risk of a lack of support or security exploits with the software they already regularly pre-install on Windows PCs. They do the same with drivers, which was one of the reasons why Vistas launch was so crappy, there weren't drivers to allow hardware to work with Vista for months after launch, and Microsoft dragged their feet in pressuring companies to do so

Exactly, one of the reasons MS can get away with this is due to the fact that is does not "come with" their OS. Any software that comes with their vanilla builds, MS will assume responsibility/support for. Whether is outlook express, MS paint, IE, WMP, etc. That is why copies of XP/VISTA that you buy from newegg.com are so bare-bones.

MGFs such as DELL and HP are supposed to support the OEM OS builds.
 
And I wonder how many users telephone MS Support :rolleyes: (esp. non-US users
 
Sorry my post is all F'ED. It's hard to post from my phone. My works network filter this site.. lol



Exactly, one of the reasons MS can get away with this is due to the fact that is does not "come with" their OS. Any software that comes with their vanilla builds, MS will assume responsibility/support for. Whether is outlook express, MS paint, IE, WMP, etc. That is why copies of XP/VISTA that you buy from newegg.com are so bare-bones.

MGFs such as DELL and HP are supposed to support the OEM OS builds.

Right, but the number of people who actually buy just the OEM OS are extremely small compared to those who buy it with the computer. And because so many people buy Windows preloaded with trialware/crap they don't need, Microsoft has shown that they can bundle stuff on there. Hell Microsoft and Roxio were bitter rivals up until about two years ago, and now almost every home/premium/ultimate version of Vista that ships on a PC has some Roxio product, with Roxio handling the tech support. The precedent is there, but Microsoft is just dragging their feet in allowing vendors to pre-load anything they want, which they should be able to do.
 
The the Windows loads that come with Dell and HP are OEM Windows keys. Those keys should not work on retail versions of Windows. They should be tied to the hardware ID of the computer or the service tag/serial number of the computer. Also, AFAIK if you call MS for trouble shooting problems they will ask you to call the manufacture of the computer first because they do not officially support the manufacture's custom load. Now if you installed a retail copy of Windows that you just purchased on an old Dell that would be a different story.

When you buy a new computer from a like Dell or HP they are the ones that create the custom loads of the OS. And they are the ones that load the trial-ware on the OS builds that come with their computers. I have always rolled my own machines and I buy my own copy of Windows. AFAIK the copies I buy never come with trial-ware.
 
The the Windows loads that come with Dell and HP are OEM Windows keys. Those keys should not work on retail versions of Windows. They should be tied to the hardware ID of the computer or the service tag/serial number of the computer. Also, AFAIK if you call MS for trouble shooting problems they will ask you to call the manufacture of the computer first because they do not officially support the manufacture's custom load. Now if you installed a retail copy of Windows that you just purchased on an old Dell that would be a different story.

When you buy a new computer from a like Dell or HP they are the ones that create the custom loads of the OS. And they are the ones that load the trial-ware on the OS builds that come with their computers. I have always rolled my own machines and I buy my own copy of Windows. AFAIK the copies I buy never come with trial-ware.

Right, but what I'm saying is, if Microsoft is going to allow manufacturors to put anything outside of Windows on a PC, a la trial-ware or what have you, they should be allow the customer to choose the rest of the software they want. The number of Windows copies sold preloaded far outnumber those of people who do it themselves, and that is why the choice is important.
 
Microsoft+partner lock on distribution channels, you can't break it ...

Microsoft is just dragging their feet in allowing vendors to pre-load anything they want, which they should be able to do.
Should be able to do, yes. But unless it supports Microsoft and its partners, Microsoft will fight like hell to prevent such.

While Microsoft and Roxio may have come to an agreement, that was a commercial vendor v. commercial vendor. When you add in open source like the Mozilla Foundation, that is very incompatible with the Microsoft+partner model.

In the Microsoft+partner model, the idea is to lock everyone else out of the distribution channel. That includes not just the PC OEMs, but the retail stores that Microsoft has a significant stake in and controls their distribution channels, like Best Buy.

The only reason Apple found itself back in Best Buy was thanx to the success of the iPod. Right after Microsoft made their stake in Best Buy, took over their IT and had significant say in the distribution channel, any Mac product other than Microsoft's own Office for Mac was yanked off-the-shelf.

There is not a single open source project that is compatible with Microsoft, unless Microsoft itself can take it and freely use it in its own products with out restriction. The Mozilla Public License (MPL), much less the GNU Public License (GPL) found in most of the Linux-centric open source world, is one not ideally suited to such.

That's why Microsoft is behind so much marketing against anything GPL and, to a lesser extent, MPL. Unlike developments from Berkeley and related BSD, MIT and other open source licenses, GPL and MPL are not things Microsoft can just grab'n use. Understand that a great majority of Windows today is using many components from Apple (which was originally from non-PC developments), open source (still today, a lot of core libraries use code from upstream, BSD/MIT-licensed open source projects), and licensed or purchased companies (Internet Explorer was Spyglass Explorer, the #3 browser on the market at the time).

So you will never see Microsoft bundling Firefox, unless it's ****** by government. In reality, government moves too slow anyway. And Microsoft is regularly able to use tactics to get around those orders, and the government is too slow to respond.

The way around the problem is around the distribution model. That's how open source continues to gain marketshare. It's how Microsoft is starting to lose enterprise accounts. And before Microsoft knows it -- between the grass roots in the homes and the enterprise deals outside of the retail channels -- they won't be "the standard" any more. It's not just foreign governments, but even the US government has completed "had it" with how Microsoft conducts itself, and is moving to -- as Ralph Nader said it -- telling Microsoft what it things as a consumer, instead of a regulator.

Even Office 2007 doesn't implement Microsoft own, ISO standardized (which is being repeatedly questioned by individual nations) Office Open XML (OOXML). They don't plan on supporting it for another 2 versions either. Hence why many organizations have just stuck with older versions of MS Office, like 2000 which is 3 version back (2007, 2003, XP, 2000), that OpenOffice.org actually does better than Office 2007 itself.

Same deal with Firefox. Microsoft likes to throw a lot of fear, uncertainty, doubt (FUD) around that Firefox isn't manageable in enterprises. But Firefox uses the same Gecko-Mozilla foundation as Netscape before it, right down to the full optional and mandatory policy framework. The same framework that can not only be managed with Active Directory Group Policy Objects (GPO) like Internet Explorer, but can also be managed by Netscape's own iPlanet Directory Server (now owned by Red Hat).

Breaking this FUD at the enterprise is what some of us do. Home consumers keep up the grass roots on the other side. The "distribution lock" that Microsoft has at the Tier-1 PC OEM and retail channel is impossible to break. The only way to implement choice is to go around it. Money is what keeps their distribution lock in place. But money cannot control things outside of that distribution lock.
 
Re: Microsoft+partner lock on distribution channels, you can't break it ...

Should be able to do, yes. But unless it supports Microsoft and its partners, Microsoft will fight like hell to prevent such.

While Microsoft and Roxio may have come to an agreement, that was a commercial vendor v. commercial vendor. When you add in open source like the Mozilla Foundation, that is very incompatible with the Microsoft+partner model.

In the Microsoft+partner model, the idea is to lock everyone else out of the distribution channel. That includes not just the PC OEMs, but the retail stores that Microsoft has a significant stake in and controls their distribution channels, like Best Buy.

The only reason Apple found itself back in Best Buy was thanx to the success of the iPod. Right after Microsoft made their stake in Best Buy, took over their IT and had significant say in the distribution channel, any Mac product other than Microsoft's own Office for Mac was yanked off-the-shelf.

There is not a single open source project that is compatible with Microsoft, unless Microsoft itself can take it and freely use it in its own products with out restriction. The Mozilla Public License (MPL), much less the GNU Public License (GPL) found in most of the Linux-centric open source world, is one not ideally suited to such.

That's why Microsoft is behind so much marketing against anything GPL and, to a lesser extent, MPL. Unlike developments from Berkeley and related BSD, MIT and other open source licenses, GPL and MPL are not things Microsoft can just grab'n use. Understand that a great majority of Windows today is using many components from Apple (which was originally from non-PC developments), open source (still today, a lot of core libraries use code from upstream, BSD/MIT-licensed open source projects), and licensed or purchased companies (Internet Explorer was Spyglass Explorer, the #3 browser on the market at the time).

So you will never see Microsoft bundling Firefox, unless it's ****** by government. In reality, government moves too slow anyway. And Microsoft is regularly able to use tactics to get around those orders, and the government is too slow to respond.

The way around the problem is around the distribution model. That's how open source continues to gain marketshare. It's how Microsoft is starting to lose enterprise accounts. And before Microsoft knows it -- between the grass roots in the homes and the enterprise deals outside of the retail channels -- they won't be "the standard" any more. It's not just foreign governments, but even the US government has completed "had it" with how Microsoft conducts itself, and is moving to -- as Ralph Nader said it -- telling Microsoft what it things as a consumer, instead of a regulator.

Even Office 2007 doesn't implement Microsoft own, ISO standardized (which is being repeatedly questioned by individual nations) Office Open XML (OOXML). They don't plan on supporting it for another 2 versions either. Hence why many organizations have just stuck with older versions of MS Office, like 2000 which is 3 version back (2007, 2003, XP, 2000), that OpenOffice.org actually does better than Office 2007 itself.

Same deal with Firefox. Microsoft likes to throw a lot of fear, uncertainty, doubt (FUD) around that Firefox isn't manageable in enterprises. But Firefox uses the same Gecko-Mozilla foundation as Netscape before it, right down to the full optional and mandatory policy framework. The same framework that can not only be managed with Active Directory Group Policy Objects (GPO) like Internet Explorer, but can also be managed by Netscape's own iPlanet Directory Server (now owned by Red Hat).

Breaking this FUD at the enterprise is what some of us do. Home consumers keep up the grass roots on the other side. The "distribution lock" that Microsoft has at the Tier-1 PC OEM and retail channel is impossible to break. The only way to implement choice is to go around it. Money is what keeps their distribution lock in place. But money cannot control things outside of that distribution lock.

You're right, but the problem is, this has already been found by courts to be non-competitive practices, and Microsoft has still never allowed manufacturors to fully customize those Windows copies. I'll obviously take a court order for Microsoft to comply with anything of this level, which I'm well aware will most likely not happen, however, my point is that it should.
 
Re: Microsoft+partner lock on distribution channels, you can't break it ...

You're right, but the problem is, this has already been found by courts to be non-competitive practices, and Microsoft has still never allowed manufacturors to fully customize those Windows copies.
Correct, that's exactly what I said. The government moves too damn slow. Many government rulings and decrees have outlawed practices by Microsoft only for Microsoft to apply them differently.

E.g., per-processor licensing (meaning if any computer shipped, the OEM paid Microsoft a license) was ruled *******, so Microsoft moved to a per-model licensing (meaning shipments on a model line) and would ***** OEMs to ship all models with Windows.

I'll obviously take a court order for Microsoft to comply with anything of this level, which I'm well aware will most likely not happen, however, my point is that it should.
Oh, the court orders happen. Microsoft just doesn't follow them at all, they always find ways around. They continually screw the distribution channel and its customers, as hard as they can, because they can.

The only way the government can do anything is by being Microsoft's largest customer. So far, that's how they've been doing it more and more. Of course it helps with Microsoft's solutions bomb horribly (not even security-wise, but are just not capable of meeting requirements), but it's sad that it takes it to reach that point sometimes.

Microsoft didn't start giving a **** about an open document format until not only did the ISO standardize a non-Microsoft one, but governments mandated its use. That's when Microsoft rushed through its own standard, and ****** the ISO approach (sent in their partners with biased interests, overloaded the voting, in clear ********* of statues, which are being reviewed by several nations), and don't even implement their ISO standard in MS Office (and it is questionable when they will). ODF when through years of review by OASIS and major, industry partners (Boeing, IBM, etc... -- the big, long-term documentation firms) and then even more scrutiny when it hit ISO -- basically over 5 years of standardization work.

As Firefox has shown, as OpenOffice.org (based on StarOffice which was always a more tightly integrated office suite) has done, it's not about capability. It's about existing momentum and vendor lock-in. Microsoft did its best to make sites MS IE-only, and not Internet standards compliant. It's so bad that companies that standardized their development on MS IE 6 have trouble even rendering their sites on MS IE 8, much less Firefox, and are remaining MS IE 6.

Open standards are perpetual. Lock-in standards are designed not merely to ***** you to upgrade, but make a lot of money for partners getting you to "port forward" to the new version. That's why it's very advantageous to be part of the Microsoft+partner model. I've been on both sides of it, and I could make a lot of money on the Microsoft side, but my dedication to minimizing long-term risk to a client is why I stay on the other. OOXML is not Microsoft's first XML version for MS Office, of which they have left a lot out, and it certainly won't be their last, because they like "moving targets" (even the ones they don't implement).
 

Wainkerr99

Closed Account
So. Did you hear the one about Firefox 3.5.1.?

Yup. Now available for download. It fixes the security flaw. Like the one before that had a security flaw. And the one before that.

Of all the criminals I want to see locked up, it is the fellas mucking up the internet I really would love to see staring at the world through iron bars.
 
So. Did you hear the one about Firefox 3.5.1.?

Yup. Now available for download. It fixes the security flaw. Like the one before that had a security flaw. And the one before that.

Of all the criminals I want to see locked up, it is the fellas mucking up the internet I really would love to see staring at the world through iron bars.

Eh, unfortunately, bugs are a part of programming life. No one wants them, but at least the bugs in 3.5 were minute compared to those of some of the other major browsers.
 
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