Ex-Bush Official: Many at Gitmo are Innocent

[Facial_King]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090319...rongly_held;_ylt=Arm7s0QF.m_YoCKjWqbRlEN34T0D

Excerpts:

Many detainees locked up at Guantanamo were innocent men swept up by U.S. forces unable to distinguish enemies from noncombatants, a former Bush administration official said Thursday. "There are still innocent people there," Lawrence B. Wilkerson, a Republican who was chief of staff to then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, told The Associated Press. "Some have been there six or seven years."

...

Wilkerson, a retired Army colonel, said vetting on the battlefield during the early stages of U.S. military operations in Afghanistan was incompetent with no meaningful attempt to discriminate "who we were transporting to Cuba for detention and interrogation."

...

In his posting for The Washington Note blog, Wilkerson wrote that "U.S. leadership became aware of this lack of proper vetting very early on and, thus, of the reality that many of the detainees were innocent of any substantial wrongdoing, had little intelligence value, and should be immediately released."

Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney fought efforts to address the situation, Wilkerson said, because "to have admitted this reality would have been a black mark on their leadership."

Wilkerson told the AP in a telephone interview that many detainees "clearly had no connection to al-Qaida and the Taliban and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Pakistanis turned many over for $5,000 a head."

============

Your thoughts?

 

[Facial_King]

Just as I expected (from many of the Righties here) - crickets!

 

[stampede2873]

uhm... it is the weekend... some of us do go out on the weekend and have fun.

Word of advice, keep the political stuff for during the week and have some fun.

>peace

 

[E-Ann-Hilden]

Sorry no better comment here that I cannot add to your solid post! Cheers!

 

[YMIHERE]

Just as I expected (from many of the Righties here) - crickets!

It's been well known for some time there were innocent people in Gitmo. The righties don't make comments on political thread unless they can dump on Obama in revenge for the bad thing that were said about the Bushies. They would not speak up individuality unless their echo chamber on this board join in. :2 cents:

 

[Namreg]

this is no surprise... everyone on this planet knows... why keep people out of your judicial system if you have something to charge them with? of course to certain individuals on this board it is enough that their skin is brown and they don't have the "right" nationality...

 

[ChefChiTown]

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico – Many detainees locked up at Guantanamo were innocent men swept up by U.S. forces unable to distinguish enemies from noncombatants, a former Bush administration official said Thursday. "There are still innocent people there," Lawrence B. Wilkerson, a Republican who was chief of staff to then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, told The Associated Press. "Some have been there six or seven years."

"It did not matter if a detainee were innocent. Indeed, because he lived in Afghanistan and was captured on or near the battle area, he must know something of importance," Wilkerson wrote in the blog. He said intelligence analysts hoped to gather "sufficient information about a village, a region, or a group of individuals, that dots could be connected and terrorists or their plots could be identified."

Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney fought efforts to address the situation, Wilkerson said, because "to have admitted this reality would have been a black mark on their leadership."

What a fucking HYPOCRITE. What about HIS responsibility of leadership? He knew this fucking shit was going on and he waits until now to say something about it? Why didn't he say something about it years ago? What a fucking asshole, this guy. Nice way to try and make yourself look like a good guy, Mr. Wilkerson, but you're accusing people of doing the same fucking shit that you did yourself; LIE and KEEP SECRETS.

Fuck politicians like this. This is why our country is going to shit. It's not because we detain innocent people in a whack-a-do prison; it's because the leaders of our country do nothing but look out for themselves, ignoring the good of the American people in the process.

 

[Namreg]

like all other politicians in all other countries, then.

 

[Facial_King]

What a fucking HYPOCRITE. What about HIS responsibility of leadership? He knew this fucking shit was going on and he waits until now to say something about it? Why didn't he say something about it years ago? What a fucking asshole, this guy. Nice way to try and make yourself look like a good guy, Mr. Wilkerson, but you're accusing people of doing the same fucking shit that you did yourself; LIE and KEEP SECRETS.

Fuck politicians like this. This is why our country is going to shit. It's not because we detain innocent people in a whack-a-do prison; it's because the leaders of our country do nothing but look out for themselves, ignoring the good of the American people in the process.

Read more carefully, Chef. Even the part that you quoted appears to explain what you're calling him out for:

"Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney fought efforts to address the situation, Wilkerson said, because "to have admitted this reality would have been a black mark on their leadership."

Sounds like he is claiming that he tried to say something about the situation before now. I suppose I should consider it some kind of progress that you at least acknowledge that "we detain innocent people in a whack-a-do (?) prison" - but then you DON'T think that such actions contribute to the shitifying of our country? It's only because politicians cover their asses? So, if Bush and Cheney and Rummy would've come out and admitted their wrongdoing, at Wilkerson's prodding, then that would have solved the problem? - even if Gitmo would remain open for business?

 

[Shagger]

How do you know the Enemy when they wear NO uniform?
The old saying if Wars where fought Naked, none would know the enemy.
Same as in psyiactry I guess, if the psych. says you got it, you got it.
Hence if a US Soldier says you're a Terrist, you are a Terrist...
Have a good one.

 

[Facetious]

Re: Ex-Bush Official: Many at Gitmo are Innocent


I'm not particularly eager to have any of these yesterdays news captives roaming the American boulevard all pissed off, guilty of offenses or otherwise ! :dunno: What's in it for me if this nation gets bitch slapped as a result of the release of gitmo suspect combatant detainees ? . . err . . "defendants", SORRY ! :uohs:

If we were to follow Rahm's logic, I wouldn't put it past E. holder to let the known bad ones (the real deal insider - known combatants) free on the American street in the hopes that they'd produce a chaotic incident. :laugh:

 

[D-rock]

Read more carefully, Chef. Even the part that you quoted appears to explain what you're calling him out for:

"Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney fought efforts to address the situation, Wilkerson said, because "to have admitted this reality would have been a black mark on their leadership."

Sounds like he is claiming that he tried to say something about the situation before now. I suppose I should consider it some kind of progress that you at least acknowledge that "we detain innocent people in a whack-a-do (?) prison" - but then you DON'T think that such actions contribute to the shitifying of our country? It's only because politicians cover their asses? So, if Bush and Cheney and Rummy would've come out and admitted their wrongdoing, at Wilkerson's prodding, then that would have solved the problem? - even if Gitmo would remain open for business?

Still if somebody was doing something that bad, like torturing people, he should have did more to make it known, even going to the media if he had to or risk the administration charging him and trying to send him to jail for revealing it. It isn't just him, Colin Powell should have also come forward a lot more than he did. He was way too much the "good soldier". The first and only loyalties a public official should have are to the public they serve and to the constitution, not some administration they work under. As far as the Bush administration goes this is just yet another thing to pile on to show just how despicable they really were.

 

[bazza599]

oh well give them some compensation an send them home its the usual british way fuck the fact tax payers like me pay for them to fuck about in the wrong part of the world on what they call going to see "family "

 

[Facial_King]

Still if somebody was doing something that bad, like torturing people, he should have did more to make it known, even going to the media if he had to or risk the administration charging him and trying to send him to jail for revealing it. It isn't just him, Colin Powell should have also come forward a lot more than he did. He was way too much the "good soldier". The first and only loyalties a public official should have are to the public they serve and to the constitution, not some administration they work under. As far as the Bush administration goes this is just yet another thing to pile on to show just how despicable they really were.

Well, I agree with you, D-rock. Still, there's always the possibility that someone (in this case, Wilkerson) could rationalize their own behavior when they're operating in an environment that excuses and trivializes all wrongdoing within and assumes the guilt of everyone outside the group as a starting point.

It's possible he's acting purely in a CYA (Cover Your Ass) mode - which hardly exonerates Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. - but it's also possible he feels guilty for not doing more back then.

What I am primarily interested in knowing is whether or not his accusations are true. A trial could get to the bottom of things.

 

[Friday on my mind]

It is well known many were innocent and had been turned over by others to the americans with the US having no independent evidence of our own implicating these people.Compounding that is the fact that a group of the military lawyers charged with prosecuting the detainees resigned in protest over the way these people were being handled.To me that says a lot about how injust the whole process has been.

 

[Facial_King]

It is well known many were innocent and had been turned over by others to the americans with the US having no independent evidence of our own implicating these people.Compounding that is the fact that a group of the military lawyers charged with prosecuting the detainees resigned in protest over the way these people were being handled.To me that says a lot about how injust the whole process has been.

Oh yeah - almost forgot about that.

:hatsoff:

 

[ChefChiTown]

Read more carefully, Chef. Even the part that you quoted appears to explain what you're calling him out for:

"Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Vice President Dick Cheney fought efforts to address the situation, Wilkerson said, because "to have admitted this reality would have been a black mark on their leadership."

If he truly thought this was a problem and wasn't looking out for his own ass, he would've been a man about it, done what he is supposed to do (the right thing) and went public with the inhumanity of Guantanamo. Instead, he kept quiet for years until Bush was out of office and he was at absolutely no risk of getting backlash to say something about it.

If that's not covering his own ass and nothing more, than I don't know what is.

Sounds like he is claiming that he tried to say something about the situation before now. I suppose I should consider it some kind of progress that you at least acknowledge that "we detain innocent people in a whack-a-do (?) prison" - but then you DON'T think that such actions contribute to the shitifying of our country? It's only because politicians cover their asses? So, if Bush and Cheney and Rummy would've come out and admitted their wrongdoing, at Wilkerson's prodding, then that would have solved the problem? - even if Gitmo would remain open for business?

The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging that there is one. Since nobody came out and publicly said "Guantanamo Bay is definitely holding innocent people captive for no reason", there wasn't a problem in the eyes of the public. Sure, people bitched and had their conspiracies and opinions, but it was never acknowledged by anyone in the government.

But, now that Bush is out of office and this guy's job is no longer at risk, he now decides to be some sort of good guy and tell the world about how we were holding innocent people in Guantanamo. If he really cared about this injustice, he would've done the right thing and said something years ago, when he first learned that it was going on. Instead, he waited until he was in the safe zone and then said something. What a coward.

That is why it is our pussy politicians that our ruining our country. They KNOW of the injustices, wrong-doings and overall shit of this country that are happening, yet...they sit back and do nothing about it. That is, until they're not in danger of losing their job. Then, and only then, is when they decide to act like patriots.

 

[Facial_King]

The first step to fixing a roblem is acknowledging that there is one. Since nobody came out and publicly said "Guantanamo Bay is definitely holding innocent people captive for no reason", there wasn't a problem in the eyes of the public. Sure, people bitched and had their conspiracies and opinions, but it was never acknowledged by anyone in the government.

Well damn, Chef - you would have made a model citizen of Stalin's Soviet Union. Nothing's truly wrong until the government acknowledges it! The citizens who suspect that something stinks are just bitching or entertaining conspiracy theories. Huh?? Huh!!!???

("Come on, Stan!! - put down that beer and remote control - we're taking a boat down to Gitmo to verify the claims by the Bush White House that all is on the level down there!")

The ONLY way that wrongdoing and corruption can be stopped is when people WITHIN the system take a stand? How about some transparency and accountability within the system itself, an active democracy, rather than encouraging citizens to adopt a "Just trust 'em!" attitude?

And as for your claim that nobody on the "inside" ever asked any questions. Remember the stink that Conyers (pretty sure it was him) caused, citing an FBI report, compared certain aspects of Gitmo to something the Nazis might do? And the right-wing put on their faces of indignation at that one. So, we were to dismiss Conyers claims (again, which were taken from an FBI report), and believe the secrecy-obsessed Bush administration?

 

[ChefChiTown]

Well damn, Chef - you would have made a model citizen of Stalin's Soviet Union. Nothing's truly wrong until the government acknowledges it! The citizens who suspect that something stinks are just bitching or entertaining conspiracy theories. Huh?? Huh!!!???

("Come on, Stan!! - put down that beer and remote control - we're taking a boat down to Gitmo to verify the claims by the Bush White House that all is on the level down there!")

When did I say that nothing was truly wrong until the government acknowledges it? I said that the first step in solving a problem is acknowledging that you have one. It's sort of like AA. Step 1: Admitting you have a problem.

Since nobody in the government told the truth and lied to it's citizens, the problem couldn't be solved because the problem was never acknowledged on a public level. This pussy politician waited until Bush was out office AND until Obama signed an order which will close Guantanamo to say something honest about what was really going on in there. That's like a research scientist who gets funding from R.J. Reynolds waiting until the production of a cigarettes comes to a complete hault to finally admit that they really do cause cancer. Too little, too late.

If he truly, honestly cared about the situation and truly, honestly felt like it was an unjustice, he would've said something years ago when he first found out about it. Instead, he cowered behind a rock and waited until all potential danger was gone. Then, and only then, did he decide to do his job.

The ONLY way that wrongdoing and corruption can be stopped is when people WITHIN the system take a stand? How about some transparency and accountability within the system itself, an active democracy, rather than encouraging citizens to adopt a "Just trust 'em!" attitude?

And as for your claim that nobody on the "inside" ever asked any questions. Remember the stink that Conyers (pretty sure it was him) caused, citing an FBI report, compared certain aspects of Gitmo to something the Nazis might do? And the right-wing put on their faces of indignation at that one. So, we were to dismiss Conyers claims (again, which were taken from an FBI report), and believe the secrecy-obsessed Bush administration?

I will never claim that our system of government is perfect, but nobody's is. There are flaws but there are also a great deal of strengths. Our country hasn't survived this long due to some fluke. It is our system of government that has helped our country become the power that it is today.

When you have politicians running our government who do nothing but look out of their own well being, it is going to exploit those flaws and make everything about our government look like shit. When, in all reality, the only real problem is the people who are running our country. Do you honestly think this ex-Bush official gives a fuck about anybody who is being held captive in Guantanamo? Fuck no. He doesn't give a shit at all. If he did, he would've been standing up for them and their proven innocence. Instead, he just sat back and did nothing. That is, until his job was no longer at risk.

There are injustices that happen in this country every single day. Not all injustices are to blame on politicians and other leaders of our country, but all of the blame for letting it continue to happen lies on nobody else's shoulders but the people who run our government. AKA - People like this ex-Bush official.

 

[Facial_King]

When did I say that nothing was truly wrong until the government acknowledges it? I said that the first step in solving a problem is acknowledging that you have one. It's sort of like AA. Step 1: Admitting you have a problem.

Since nobody in the government told the truth and lied to it's citizens, the problem couldn't be solved because the problem was never acknowledged on a public level.

You're saying it AGAIN. What you said was "The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging that there is one. Since nobody came out and publicly said "Guantanamo Bay is definitely holding innocent people captive for no reason", there wasn't a problem in the eyes of the public. Sure, people bitched and had their conspiracies and opinions, but it was never acknowledged by anyone in the government."

First, what you're saying is that there wasn't "a problem in the eyes of the public." - Huh? You don't recall any negative public reaction to Gitmo, any controversy, any debate, any protests (although I'll be the first to admit that there probably weren't ENOUGH protests, but when the prez dismisses protesters as something akin to "focus groups" what can one expect?)??? There WAS and IS a problem in the eyes of the public. The problem was acknowledged long ago. Should we expect Bush and Cheney to just turn themselves in? Sure, the average Limbaugh fan probably wants, a la Romney, double the Gitmos, but they aren't a majority, so you've got the numbers for problem recognition right there.

But then, you said, importantly "Sure, people bitched and had their conspiracies and opinions, but it was never acknowledged by anyone in the govt." So, see, that's your shift. The problem in the eyes of the public was minimized to be conspiracies and "bitching". People who didn't want their government, in their name, picking up Joe Sikhs-Pakh in the desert and, without evidence, imprisoning him as a terror suspect w/o evidence, which is not only immoral but counterproductive, as that guy might not have such a positive feeling for the US of A upon his release, if ever gets out - people like that have now, in your rhetorical sleight-of-hand, become mere bitchers. And nobody does - or should - take bitchers seriously! So, despite all the hints and clues the public got - everything was legit, but everything was super-secret! - and all of the various organizations saying something stank (at Gitmo, at Abu Ghraib, at the black sites, etc.) - you think "the problem was never acknowledged on a public level."??? Sure, not by the Oval Office, but the executive branch of the government is not the only element that exists at "the public level" And again, as for actual government recognition, recall the Conyers hullabaloo - oh, how DARE he! But that wasn't all - just how much have you been seriously following the news (non-Fox) the last few years, anyway?

FBI Concerns About Torture "Ignored":
http://crooksandliars.com/2008/05/20/doj-inspector-general-report-fbi-concerns-about-torture-ignored

And there was plenty more than that - utilize Google if you doubt me.

Our country hasn't survived this long due to some fluke.

"This long" isn't very long at all. Maybe a fluke would be enough to keep us going for this short period? I hope it's not just a fluke. Anyway, read what Wilkerson said about that very thing, in the link below....

When you have politicians running our government who do nothing but look out of their own well being, it is going to exploit those flaws and make everything about our government look like shit. When, in all reality, the only real problem is the people who are running our country. Do you honestly think this ex-Bush official gives a fuck about anybody who is being held captive in Guantanamo? Fuck no. He doesn't give a shit at all. If he did, he would've been standing up for them and their proven innocence. Instead, he just sat back and did nothing. That is, until his job was no longer at risk.

There are injustices that happen in this country every single day. Not all injustices are to blame on politicians and other leaders of our country, but all of the blame for letting it continue to happen lies on nobody else's shoulders but the people who run our government. AKA - People like this ex-Bush official.

I think your characterization of Wilkerson, based on this one thing (his recent comments about Gitmo prisoners), may very well be much too harsh.
May 10, 2007 - Wilkerson Suggests Impeachment for Bush and Cheney on National Public Radio (NPR):
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/22349

Nuggets:

"...I really do think that our founding fathers, Hamilton, Washington, Monroe, Madison, would all be astounded that over the course of our short history as a country, 200 plus years, we haven't used that little two to three lines in Article II of the Constitution more frequently, the impeachment clause."

After an interruption, Wilkerson continued: "The language in that article, the language in those two or three lines about impeachment is nice and precise – it's high crimes and misdemeanors. You compare Bill Clinton's peccadilloes for which he was impeached to George Bush's high crimes and misdemeanors or Dick Cheney's high crimes and misdemeanors, and I think they pale in significance."

Ashbrook asked for some examples of such high crimes and misdemeanors, and Wilkerson replied: "I think that the caller was right. I think we went into this war for specious reasons. I think we went into this war not too much unlike the way we went into the Spanish American War with the Hearst press essentially goading the American people and the leadership into war. That was a different time in a different culture, in a different America. We're in a very different place today and I think we essentially got goaded into the war through some of the same means."

:hatsoff: